Any thoughts on Neo Geo AES+?

[Xan]

Seems the whole thing is about selling the illusion of an official case/controller, or high quality repros for a more positive take on it. If one can do without that might as well go with the Mister then.

If it's based on reverse engineering work, I don't see how "Gameplay on the NEOGEO AES+ is not achieved through emulation - instead the console is powered by its legacy ASIC chips, re-engineered by modern standards to accurately replicate the original machine's hardware and software." (on the official site as of this moment) is anything but blatant false advertising aimed at a crowd that's assumed to pay a premium.

[Konsolkongen]

I wonder how the HDMI output will do. Will it be proper integer scaled or nasty uneven scaling with constant pixel shimmer? Will it support the correct refresh rate of the Neo Geo through HDMI, 59.18Hz, or will it speed up the gameplay slightly to 59.94Hz, or will it stutter?

Really, it should have a direct video out mode for use with scalers. I believe the Mister supports this for many cores, but maybe not likely to appear in a product like this?

Hopefully these things can be adjusted in an on screen menu.

[Josh128]

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Glad to finally see some more information from a reliable source

Thanks to RetroRGB.com for highlighting this new video interview where Jotego says a lot of interesting stuff about AES+ (will need to turn on subtitles for non-Spanish speakers). He begins by saying that Plaion have now "allowed" him to say more for this interview.

He confirms that the ASICs are based on the MiSTer core, using his and Furrtek's work on that core, he says he believes lag will be as minimal as possible. He confirms RGB output. He says the carts will use flash memory to begin with, as ROM is only feasible in very large production runs, hinting that different methods could be used later if future cartridge demand allows. He says that the Neo Geo chipset is being reduced to 2 main ASIC chips. He vouches for Plaion's build-quality claims RE console and joysticks. He talks about the sound DAC and how the AES+ audio will differ from the MiSTer core....a must-watch

I wish that Plaion themselves were confirming more in-depth stuff like this on their website though...

LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgHGL5TSR-s



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Looks promising. The authentic giant size of it makes it even more desirable, IMO.

[R79]

Looks a bit bigger than the original there, unless he is a really small man. It's not that much wider than the first Mega Drive, similar weight as well. Wonder if smaller games like Andro Dunos @ 34 Megs will cost less, and the larger ones close to 1000 cost a bit more..?

[Konsolkongen]

The largest game is 128MB or thereabouts? I don’t think that will influence the price.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Definitely too big in that photoshopped pic. And definitely too-big words as well. I guess they at least can improve the original AES RGB signal.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I wonder how the HDMI output will do. Will it be proper integer scaled or nasty uneven scaling with constant pixel shimmer? Will it support the correct refresh rate of the Neo Geo through HDMI, 59.18Hz, or will it speed up the gameplay slightly to 59.94Hz, or will it stutter?

I think I've read the HDMI out isn't outputting actual native refresh, but anyway, AES' refresh was never the same as MVS' - they modified it to make it closer to usual consumer specs.

Hopefully these things can be adjusted in an on screen menu.

That would separate it even further from the original AES, not sure they'd want to evidence it so clearly.

[Sumez]

Wonder if smaller games like Andro Dunos @ 34 Megs will cost less, and the larger ones close to 1000 cost a bit more..?

Mask ROM especially at the time got a lot more expensive when you needed bigger ROM sizes. It's greatly impacted at the fact that the data was printed on the chips in the factory.
This isn't really the case for flash memory, where even 1000 megs (128mbyte) is incredibly cheap nowadays

[Unseen]

If it's based on reverse engineering work, I don't see how "Gameplay on the NEOGEO AES+ is not achieved through emulation - instead the console is powered by its legacy ASIC chips, re-engineered by modern standards to accurately replicate the original machine's hardware and software." (on the official site as of this moment) is anything but blatant false advertising aimed at a crowd that's assumed to pay a premium.

In the end it comes down to the old question "What is emulation" and from what I've seen the answer to that seems to be different for everyone. If you use a sufficiently-broad definition, the hardware-based backward compatibility feature of some consoles (GB on GBA) or a revised console model (e.g. SNES 3-chip vs. 1-chip) could fall under it while narrower definitions might allow any FPGA reimplementation or strongly software-based backward compatibility features (late-model PS2) to avoid the "emulation" label.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Not emulation, not FPGA approximation, but true console reincarnation etched back into silicon.

I mean, "not emulation" and "not FPGA approximation" yet you're using those to design your ASICs?

[Xan]

If it's based on reverse engineering work, I don't see how "Gameplay on the NEOGEO AES+ is not achieved through emulation - instead the console is powered by its legacy ASIC chips, re-engineered by modern standards to accurately replicate the original machine's hardware and software." (on the official site as of this moment) is anything but blatant false advertising aimed at a crowd that's assumed to pay a premium.

In the end it comes down to the old question "What is emulation" and from what I've seen the answer to that seems to be different for everyone. If you use a sufficiently-broad definition, the hardware-based backward compatibility feature of some consoles (GB on GBA) or a revised console model (e.g. SNES 3-chip vs. 1-chip) could fall under it while narrower definitions might allow any FPGA reimplementation or strongly software-based backward compatibility features (late-model PS2) to avoid the "emulation" label.

I have made these points myself earlier in this thread.

The issue with their statement is that "its legacy ASIC chips" would normally be assumed to mean that they were working with the original schematics, even if these were re-engineered in some form as they say. They basically hide the fact it's based on a 3rd party reverse engineered MiSTer core to raise the perceived value of their product.

[Sumez]

Would the product really be "worth" more if the ASICs were based on the system's original schematics?

How many people would care?

[D]

Would the product really be "worth" more if the ASICs were based on the system's original schematics?

How many people would care?

Very interesting question.
I would say yes, since it could potentially be more accurate and have a lesser chance of having bugs or other inaccurate things.
But it could also mean that there would actually be no difference in the performance and behavior if it was reverse engineered without any guess work!
Can we ask those guys who worked on the mister Core?

[Xan]

Would the product really be "worth" more if the ASICs were based on the system's original schematics?

How many people would care?

Looking at the prices that people are willing to pay for even used Analogue stuff, which also says "no emulation" on its page, it would seem that this notion is at least one part of what makes it desirable to people.

Why would all of these companies even highlight it, if it didn't matter?

[Sumez]

Would the product really be "worth" more if the ASICs were based on the system's original schematics?

How many people would care?

Looking at the prices that people are willing to pay for even used Analogue stuff, which also says "no emulation" on its page, it would seem that this notion is at least one part of what makes it desirable to people.

Why would all of these companies even highlight it, if it didn't matter?

Analogue's product is also an FPGA replication based on reverse engineering - you know that.
Like several people have reiterated now, what counts as "emulation" depends on what you're looking for, and the fact that these aren't some android box running the games via software emulation *does* make a massive difference.

If you insist on calling a new ASIC designed to work like the original hardware "emulation", then you're talking about entirely different things than what companies such as Analogue are banking on. The alternative here is shit like Hyperkin or that Neo Geo X thing.

What I'm asking is obviously not if anyone cares whether it's emulation. But whether anyone cares about whether the exact same IC schematics that were used in the original AES runs are being reused for this.

[Xan]

There surely exist plenty of Neo Geo emulators, but I'm not aware of anyone having had access to the chip schematics. Is it that weird of a notion to you that people would find something involving the latter to be more special?

To give an example from the PSP, just about every homebrew emulator on it was garbage, despite being tremendously hyped up at the time in the PSP homebrew scene. What worked quite well was the PS1 emulator though, which even supports 240p output via the video out cable. This is despite that system being a later generation than all the homebrew emulators targeted (except for N64, but you can guess how well that worked). Well, Sony made that emulator for games sold over PSN. You think the fact that they had access to the PS1 hardware schematics didn't play any role here?

Of course all of these FPGA devices are better than Hyperkin stuff, but so is software emulation. FPGA still has potential advantages in terms of power draw and input lag, but then there is MiSTer doing the exact same thing. In the end these other products are trying to justify boutique prices with some sort of vague notion of being "official" and "not emulation".

[Sumez]

The product being hardware based, officially licensed, looking good, and hopefully also a high quality build are all positive factors that play into why people have an interest in this. "Being able to play the games" plays a much smaller role, as there have been many great ways to achieve that for years already.

Basically, this is how any console manufacturer would do it if they were to start a new run of original conoles.

[Xan]

Yeah, I've already recognized that the SNK license (or at least the name that still exists) is a factor and so I could see why people would buy it for a quality case and controller. How does selling something based on the presumably open source MiSTer core work, though? Wasn't that the issue with that Neo Geo X thing?

I find Analogue ripping off the original console designs cheesy however, especially mashing together the NTSC-U SNES design with the SFC/PAL one. Kind of surprised Nintendo didn't at least try to take action about that actually. They go after modders who don't make a profit, but not after a hardware company selling a replica of their system?

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Not to mention in the above Youtube video revealing more info about the Neo-Geo AES+ console that Plaion is working on another project that they aren't at liberty to "discuss/reveal." Could that be another retro gaming console project then?

PC Engine X! ^_~

[orange808]

I find Analogue ripping off the original console designs cheesy however, especially mashing together the NTSC-U SNES design with the SFC/PAL one. Kind of surprised Nintendo didn't at least try to take action about that actually. They go after modders who don't make a profit, but not after a hardware company selling a replica of their system?

As it stands, I believe Bleem vs Sony protects Analogue's machines very well, because they ship out running real carts.

Of course, that all assumes that the precedent is on solid footing. America has seen some shifts that might allow Nintendo and/or Sony a mulligan and a chance win a complete reversal of that decision--with a concentrated lobby effort and the right venue. Analogue could be the target if they decided they wanted to stomp out emulation entirely. Precendents don't carry weight like they did.

Nope, not off topic. I didn't bring it up.

[fernan1234]

You know what I would like? A white shell that you can put a real AES motherboard into. Maybe even also black shells to replace scuffed up iraq condition original shells.

[Josh128]

Not to mention in the above Youtube video revealing more info about the Neo-Geo AES+ console that Plaion is working on another project that they aren't at liberty to "discuss/reveal." Could that be another retro gaming console project then?

PC Engine X! ^_~

Supergrafx.

[Restart_Point]

New video from Plaion themselves, answering ten of the most "frequently asked questions" according to them. Unfortunately it doesn't address any of the technical questions being asked here, it just re-iterates what's already said on the Plaion website, which is disappointing. The most technical it gets is confirming that it will have stereo RGB out. Of some interest is that the wireless arcade sticks will also be usable by 15pin cable (supplied), but no mention or demonstration of prototype hardware or internals.

LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJUFyC7YDY8

[Guspaz]

I have two main concerns about this:

1) It's ultimately just a modified mister core, burned into an ASIC instead of an FPGA, so it has all the potential risks of accuracy/compatibility issues, but without the ability to update the core to fix anything. Their use of an ASIC instead of an FPGA is nonsensical and probably purely for marketing purposes. At least using an FPGA emulation instead of CPU-based software emulation has technical advantages, an ASIC running the same verilog instead of an FPGA doesn't, at least for this use case and context.

2) SNK is fully owned by the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, the one who had that journalist chopped up with a bone saw. So there are moral implications to any modern involvement with their licensed IP.

[BazookaBen]

2) SNK is fully owned by the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, the one who had that journalist chopped up with a bone saw. So there are moral implications to any modern involvement with their licensed IP.

So is 100% your cutoff (oof, bad pun) or would you also reject Nintendo games since they're like 5% owned by the Saudis?

[Konsolkongen]

Is the Neo Geo core on Mister not reasonably accurate already? I would think that it has been out long enough that most inaccuracies would have been found by now. At least the ones that actually matter and impacts gameplay.

Edit: The Neo Geo cartridge port is also massive, requiring a large amount of IO. Would that even be possible with any reasonably priced FPGA?

[neorichieb1971]

What is folks opinion using original size boxes and cartridges?

For me its a deterrent. (I don't own any AES games). I have no space to have one of these things pre setup and I'm happy with my game room as it is. I don't mind the real experience but I don't see myself buying this machine and having large book shelves to put these games on it. Even if they release 40 games, imagine how much space that takes up? Also how many games outside of fighters are getting released?

I did some research with AI about the NGCD being re released and it said it would have the same bottlenecks as the NGCD. But when I said to change the source code in re-released games to load all the data as one big file dump in to 128MB of RAM from a chip or blu ray drive it said it could be done for $250-$300 MSRP quite easily. A 4x Blu ray drive would load Metal Slug 3 in its entirety at 708megabits in 4 seconds. Apparently 128MB RAM would have cost $5000 in 1994.

So the only reason to buy this NG+ is to have a great collection on the wall. You can already play most of the games on the Switch via HDMI, or by emulation if that's your boat.

I am also concerned for the project that 161-1 AES carts already exist. Where is the incentive to buy the re-released games if they already exist on a multi cart that has a 99.9% chance of being compatible with this hardware?

Too much emphasis has gone into look, feel and authenticity. But we live in a world now where everyone has multiple systems. Without new games being released I think it will be a 1-2 week wonder machine and people will get bored with it, or have it as an ornament dusting it off from time to time.

For those with emulation devices, Misters, PC's, Evercades, Nintendo Switch where is the incentive to get this monster machine out and play with it?

I think it devalues the historical prestige of the original system myself. But I hope it brings enjoyment to those who want it. If they release a NGCD profile system I might dive in, perhaps I am confused to who this machine is aimed at. I think it has equal ability to upset the pre existing collectors as it will bring new ones onboard.

[Restart_Point]

So the only reason to buy this NG+ is to have a great collection on the wall.

The biggest draw to this will be to the people who remember the original console release, saw it in magazines etc but had no way of ever realistically owning or even seeing one in action, so it has retained a mythical status to this day. Now they can buy what is allegedly a 1:1 recreation for a very reasonable price with a click on Amazon. That's the camp i'm firmly in. The logic doesn't go any further than that. About 7 years ago I was considering getting an MVS board, looking into how to get it working etc, but never having been an arcade hardware person, decided it was too complicated and cumbersome, and got a MiSTer instead. But at the price, this AES+ is still very attractive to me, even though I totally don't need it and may not even use it much. So far i've been able to allow common sense and scepticism to rule and I haven't bought it yet. But if it's proven to be great in reviews etc from reputable parties, I still may get it somewhere down the line.

[neorichieb1971]

So the only reason to buy this NG+ is to have a great collection on the wall.

The biggest draw to this will be to the people who remember the original console release, saw it in magazines etc but had no way of ever realistically owning or even seeing one in action, so it has retained a mythical status to this day. Now they can buy what is allegedly a 1:1 recreation for a very reasonable price with a click on Amazon. That's the camp i'm firmly in. The logic doesn't go any further than that. About 7 years ago I was considering getting an MVS board, looking into how to get it working etc, but never having been an arcade hardware person, decided it was too complicated and cumbersome, and got a MiSTer instead. But at the price, this AES+ is still very attractive to me, even though I totally don't need it and may not even use it much. So far i've been able to allow common sense and scepticism to rule and I haven't bought it yet. But if it's proven to be great in reviews etc from reputable parties, I still may get it somewhere down the line.

My friend said something very similar a week ago after he told me he pre ordered one. My crowd were fortunate enough to play with an AES on many occasions as my import store had one running everyday in the store (it was the owners personal machine). It says one thing, you have to be around 50 years old for this logic to apply in todays market, be exposed to its existence in 1990 to have any affiliation with its history or attachment to it.


What do you think about the NG+ pluses life cycle upon release? New games? Mainstream attraction getting momentum? 3rd party support? The 10 or so games confirmed are a mixed bag and I would expect Metal Slug and one of the fighters to get 1-1 adoption or thereabouts. I always considered the Nintendo Switch to be the perfect "today" machine for retro gaming so it will be interesting to see if SNK Plaion or whoever it is making this stuff will stop ports to other machines going forward if it wants to be in its own eco system.

[Restart_Point]

What do you think about the NG+ pluses life cycle upon release? New games? Mainstream attraction getting momentum? 3rd party support?

I think they are planning to release more OG games on cartridge in waves periodically and they know that the games are the only way to make profit (at the current hardware prices) which is why they saw this as feasible in the first place. But I am sceptical about how they can deliver the cartridges at the "1:1" level of quality stated at the current prices (same goes for the hardware). I totally agree that this is for people around the age of 50 and up, and I guess they are banking on that market to continue buying waves of games for the new console, and/or for the OG console of course, for the foreseeable future.

I don't know about mainstream adoption, I don't think that will happen as the mainstream do not feel the value or nostalgia for ASIC hardware or huge cartridges, if you count the Switch generation as the mainstream.

I don't think they will restrict games on other platforms, possibly SNK have already maxxed out on sales of such and this AES+ is a way to get the target groups paying money again even if its for games they already own on modern platforms?

When it comes to brand new games coming out on the AES+, let's DREAM that an enhanced version of Earthion was announced for example, now that would get myself (and many other 50 year olds lol) throwing money at them as long as it was around the current price of the Plaion carts. Maybe a few ports of famous arcades too, like the recent port of Shinobi 1987 to Neo Geo (if Sega were to get involved)