Any thoughts on Neo Geo AES+?

[azmun]

SNK / Plaion has recently announced the latest iteration/revision of their Neo Geo AES console. Any of you guys interested? Personally, I'm gonna hold off until it gets released and reviews come in.

[spmbx]

I think it's a very cool thing of them to release, especially with it being compatible with old carts and with them re-releasing existing ones. I'm probably still not getting it though since my mister already plays the games perfectly fine

[Konsolkongen]

I think it is extremely kewl, and I want to get one, if it really is as good as it seems.

I worry about the quality of the flash memory used in the cartridges. How long will the games last?
Evercade cartridges apparently use very cheap flash memory and judging by threads on reddit, there are many examples of games that have died already.

[Gunstar]

Pre-ordered because Furrtek and Jotego are involved in some capacity. There's a 60 day return policy thankfully and knowing how dedicated some fans are they'll comb over any issues within a week!

I'm wary about possible voltage issues with carts and original AES hardware, also, and something I didn't think about until Konsolkongen's post, is longevity of the memory they're using.

I hope the plastic shells for the system and stick are 1:1 swappable, the original plastics are fragile imo so it would be nice to have these, assuming they're stronger, as a replacement options or backups.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I'm sure Plaion has thought about the durability & longevity with the plastic being used for the upcoming Neo-Geo+ AES console & updated AES arcade stick. The plastics used with their previously released Atari 2600+ & 7800+ retro consoles & game controllers are ace and well constructed if that's any indication of actual product manufacturing processes.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[neorichieb1971]

Not for me, would take up too much room that I don't have. I also have MVS cartridges stacked up that I would want to use.

[azmun]

Was wondering the value proposition here. With quite a bit of options at our disposal, this is probably and primarily targeted for fans of the Neo Geo and collectors. Or those chasing nostalgia. Would it appeal to those looking to buy in the second hard market with prices that are easily two to three fold? But then again, this isn't exactly OG hardware. For the rest, we can access the library via our old, genuine and beloved consoles, FPGA (i.e. Mister) or software emulation which has been available for quite some time. That said, I'm digging the white unit.

[spmbx]

Same could be said for evercade i guess. There is a market because there are plenty of people who want a physical dedicated thing and games to put on a shelf.

Anyway it at least supports RGB analog out, which is pretty cool too.
https://www.gamesradar.com/hardware/ret ... with-hdmi/

[BazookaBen]

I would just recommend using a store that doesn't charge until it ships.

Because you don't want to lose the ability to chargeback if the end up going belly-up for some reason, or if the product ends up not being as advertised and they can't/won't refund

[orange808]

Neo Geo ls owned by the Saudi royal family, so I seriously doubt they will go out of business or not ship out the machines.

I'm not interested in buying things from Neo Geo, but I wouldn't worry about them pulling an Tommy T Amiico stunt. Neo Geo has a lot of money behind them.

[Bassa-Bassa]

SNK is just licensing it out. It's Embracer's money what's at risk here.

[BazookaBen]

Well whatever the chain of custody is, I hope it's successful, so other companies like Sega and NEC see the success and try something similar. Rereleasing older consoles die-shrunk and rereleasing games.

[neorichieb1971]

Well whatever the chain of custody is, I hope it's successful, so other companies like Sega and NEC see the success and try something similar. Rereleasing older consoles die-shrunk and rereleasing games.

If I were a SNK Neo Geo collector i'd be a bit worried. Whilst quite a few titles will never see the light of day on re-release quite a few of the big hitters will. I still consider the Neo a fighters console.

[spmbx]

Well whatever the chain of custody is, I hope it's successful, so other companies like Sega and NEC see the success and try something similar. Rereleasing older consoles die-shrunk and rereleasing games.

If I were a SNK Neo Geo collector i'd be a bit worried. Whilst quite a few titles will never see the light of day on re-release quite a few of the big hitters will. I still consider the Neo a fighters console.

I'd be more worried about the generation that gives a rats ass and is willing to pay big bucks dying out. I don't think bootlegs, flashcarts, repros and emulators ever had much impact on "the investment"

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Sure, there are both the Neo-Geo MVS & AES 161-in-1 carts that you can buy that pretty much encompasses the entire Neo-Geo gaming catalog nowadays (minus the current homebrew MVS game releases). I've got one for my Neo-Geo MVS boards. Plus the fact that you can buy an MVS to AES cartridge convertor to play your favorite MVS games on an AES console nowadays -- they've been available for quite awhile.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Well whatever the chain of custody is, I hope it's successful, so other companies like Sega and NEC see the success and try something similar. Rereleasing older consoles die-shrunk and rereleasing games.

If I were a SNK Neo Geo collector i'd be a bit worried. Whilst quite a few titles will never see the light of day on re-release quite a few of the big hitters will. I still consider the Neo a fighters console.

To see NEC revisit their classic PC Engine gaming console could be a very real possibility "down the road" with some QoL enhancements over the original hardware would be ace (even though "Konami Holdings" owns the current Hudson Soft IPs of gaming titles). It'd be something if a brand new PCE Hu-Card or CD-Rom2/Super CD-Rom2/Arcade CD-Rom2 based game or games could be released as well. Plus the current technology to release a modern-day Hu-Card bigger than 20 megabits capacity maximum (as with Capcom's "Street Fighter II Dash" Hu-card release) is seriously possible nowadays. The usage of on-board NVRAM to save both high scores and high score initials would an another QoL perk indeed without the need for a battery-based "Backup RAM" setup either.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[SavagePencil]

Definitely interested in the controllers, which I’m glad to see look quality. But I’m taking a wait and see attitude on the system itself: analog video has always been finnicky on a real AES, and HDMI will have to be opinionated and that will rub some segments of the audience the wrong way. The participation of Jotego and Furrtek does give some confidence at least.

[neorichieb1971]

Definitely interested in the controllers, which I’m glad to see look quality. But I’m taking a wait and see attitude on the system itself: analog video has always been finnicky on a real AES, and HDMI will have to be opinionated and that will rub some segments of the audience the wrong way. The participation of Jotego and Furrtek does give some confidence at least.

What aspect of the system is Jotego and Furrtek involved in? I don't know them.

[azmun]

What aspect of the system is Jotego and Furrtek involved in? I don't know them.

Gonna speculate here, but they will most likely be involved in the design of the hardware/ASIC chips and implementation. I think this is precisely where my skepticism or apprehension stems from. These two figures aren't just any name but rather "heavyweights" in the FPGA industry. The last reissue (i.e. Neo Geo X) proved to be less than ideal, almost a fiasco. These guys are to lend credibility and probably double as a marketing tactic to assure fans of quality. Seems to be working.

I'll be more explicit. I see Neo Geo AES+ as a new philosophy in designing and reviving consoles that have long been out of production. Most manufactures go the route of emulation or FPGA and such (e.g. Analogue). This is a kind of hybrid or grey area. Because the way I see it, you can probably design/program an FPGA chip without the flexibility and call it an ASIC?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is a distinction between accuracy and authenticity. Where or how do we draw the (admittedly thin) line? Reverse engineering is not the same as using original and proper chips which can be legitimately streamlined.

[Bassa-Bassa]

There is a distinction between accuracy and authenticity. Where or how do we draw the (admittedly thin) line? Reverse engineering is not the same as using original and proper chips which can be legitimately streamlined.

Aren't you answering yourself there? They're using reverse engineering, and not by SNK nor the original devs, the line's not thin at all here despite their Analogue-style catch phrases. At any rate, this will be an authentic Plaion Neo-Geo AES+. As I mentioned, SNK's just licensing it out, even if they're advertising it on their twitter and homepage.

[BazookaBen]

Reverse engineering is not the same as using original and proper chips which can be legitimately streamlined.

But you can design a "proper chip" through reverse engineering

I imagine the original chip schematics from SNK are long gone, so reverse engineering is the only option if you did want to produce a new ASIC.

But what I'm starting to understand now is that there are varying degrees on which this can be achieved? Apparently there are some hybrid FPGA/ASIC methods where you're essentially just reproducing an FPGA configuration in ASIC form. In other words, it looks like an FPGA but it's locked in like an ASIC

I guess the most authentic method currently feasible would be designing a full chip from the ground up based on Furrtek's reverse engineering, making an SoC on some more modern node. Where the circuit layout much more closely resembles the actual layout of the chip from an MVS MV1C than it does an FPGA configured to simulate an MVS machine?

Or I may be completely off base here. I have a very surface level understanding of both chip fabrication and FPGA's.

[azmun]

At any rate, this will be an authentic Plaion Neo-Geo AES+. As I mentioned, SNK's just licensing it out, even if they're advertising it on their twitter and homepage.

I don't think the track record for their licensed products have stood the test of time.

[fernan1234]

First of all, this will 100% get delayed. Don't expect this until 2027 at best.

And then, how much is a working AES console in decent shape nowadays? Does the price on this thing compete with "the real thing"?

IMO the only really attractive offering here is the memory card, since most of the original cards have dead batteries now and they are a huge pain to open up for a battery replacement or a FRAM mod.

[bobrocks95]

First of all, this will 100% get delayed. Don't expect this until 2027 at best.

And then, how much is a working AES console in decent shape nowadays? Does the price on this thing compete with "the real thing"?

IMO the only really attractive offering here is the memory card, since most of the original cards have dead batteries now and they are a huge pain to open up for a battery replacement or a FRAM mod.

The base unit for $250 with a stick included stomps any current aftermarket AES deals. You'd probably be looking at around $600-$650 USD on the low end when imported from Japan, and if they're anything like the average MV-1C boards, they haven't held up great.

[BazookaBen]

And it's a new AES, not a used AES.

If it really as faithful a reproduction as they say, then tons of people will be interested.

Only a subset of hardcore collectors, people that have already spent thousands over the last few decades, are criticizing this. And not with very sound logic.

I'm personally not interested, because I've already put a lot of work into consolizing an MVS, but I still think it's a cool product.

I would be interested in some of the games, though, if I could play them on my MVS

[Unseen]

But what I'm starting to understand now is that there are varying degrees on which this can be achieved? Apparently there are some hybrid FPGA/ASIC methods where you're essentially just reproducing an FPGA configuration in ASIC form. In other words, it looks like an FPGA but it's locked in like an ASIC

Disclaimer: I have not designed any ASICs. (yet?)

Both Altera and Xilinx used to offer this, but at least Altera seems to have discontinued their "HardCopy" line of chips. I don't know if any of the other FPGA vendors on the market currently offer a similar service. It was probably just the same FPGA circuit, just with hardcoded configuration cells.

But as far as I know the design flow for ASICs aren't that different to FPGAs these days - you write your hardware description in one of the usual languages, run it through a synthesis tool that assembles your circuits using your chip maker's standard cell libraries for the chosen process and layouts them and do verification/simulation on the result. It's a good idea to keep most of your sources generic enough to be able to also synthesize it for an FPGA because you can then test your code in real time instead of waiting for a very slow simulator - minutes or hours of real time per simulated microsecond depending on the complexity.

[fernan1234]

The base unit for $250 with a stick included stomps any current aftermarket AES deals. You'd probably be looking at around $600-$650 USD on the low end when imported from Japan, and if they're anything like the average MV-1C boards, they haven't held up great.

I see decent shape working AES consoles+stick for around 250-300 USD with the yen being so cheap the past year. Of course they can get more expensive when they are pristine and complete with the box.

I can see the value proposition for 250 if it ends up being truly faithful to the original. Though it will always carry the downside of not being "original". Kinda like reprints of rare CD games.

[Josh128]

And it's a new AES, not a used AES.

If it really as faithful a reproduction as they say, then tons of people will be interested.

Only a subset of hardcore collectors, people that have already spent thousands over the last few decades, are criticizing this. And not with very sound logic.

I'm personally not interested, because I've already put a lot of work into consolizing an MVS, but I still think it's a cool product.

I would be interested in some of the games, though, if I could play them on my MVS

Same here, although I love the authenticity aspect of the project. I'd love to support it just out of principle, but I also have an custom consolized MVS with a $400 NeoSD AND an MVS in my Mace arcade cab. But its still a cool concept. Having analog RGB 240p output is amazing. Personally I'd love for them to do a SuperGrafx that would play TG-16, PCE, and SuperGrafx cards....and CD-ROMs via SD card or USB stick.

[Zellix]

There's been a lot of discussion on the console - does anyone have any thoughts on the cartridges?

I've never owned any original carts (CD only!) but assume it uses some type of mask ROM. A program once only type of ROM that will last for many decades. Are the reprint carts more likely to use some type of less durable memory like a type of flash memory that's fast enough to meet the AES timing access requirements?

[Sumez]

It's almost certainly gonna be flash/nand memory yeah
I don't think any modern aftermarket cartridge releases ever used mask rom? EPROMs at best, but that usually requiring sourcing and reusing old parts, limiting the production runs