NeoGeo fans rejoice

[Kubilak]

Jotego has confirmed he's involved: "You may have seen Plaion's announcement of an ASIC based NeoGeo console.

Furrtek has implied on twitter (without stating directly) that he's involved.

This basically means that they most likely took the Mister core and turned it into an ASIC. No real 68K/Z80 involved here, just HDL into ASIC. Which is fine as the Mister core is, as far as I know, highly accurate if not cycle exact. What may NOT be fine are the extras that they bolted on top of this:

• HDMI video processing / scaling lag

• Aspect ratio / scanlines

• Controller input lag

• Controller parts (is it Seimitsu like real AES controllers, or cheaper chinese garbage?)

• Quality of the plastics

• Do carts have ROMs or flash (e.g. NAND which slowly degrades and you end up losing/corrupting whatever is stored there eventually)

These are what will make / break the system for lots of nitpickers like myself, also because realistically, it's a certainty that they have made fidelity compromises.

For example, on the Mister one can set

Code: Select all

vsync_adjust=2

for near-zero (a few scanlines) lag and have Arcade-fidelity experience. However, that's not compatible with a lot of monitors and televisions out there and the next best setting

Code: Select all

vsync_adjust=1

which is more compatible (but still not fully compatible) introduces 1-2 full frames of lag. The maximally-compatible setting introduces even more lag.

Given that AES+ is a commercial, for-profit project, something tells me that the trade-off will be for mass-consumption / accessibility rather than fidelity. It's highly likely then that the system will have 1-2 full frames of lag at minimum, making it immediately worse than a real AES / Mister.

TL;DR Given that my top concern is fidelity, I'm not touching this until I see a review of an early unit.

[BazookaBen]

Is Plaion gonna be cool and release MVS versions of the games for those of us with consolized MVS's?

[Kiken]

Well this announcement came out of left field. For now I've preordered TSS, Metal Slug and Pulstar. I'm seriously considering getting one of the consoles too for the sake of comparison.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For a mere one hundred dollars more over the "basic" Neo-Geo+ bundled set, $349.99 usd gets you the "exclusive" all-white colored bundled set with console, wireless AES arcade stick, wireless controller dongle, usb-c cable (to recharge the wireless AES arcade stick), AES arcade stick wired cord, AES+ memory card (with no "on-board" back-up battery this time around and saved to NVRAM for posterity puposes) and lastly, an "all-white" colored AES cart of Nazca's classic Metal Slug circa 1996. Quite a bargain indeed.

There's the 3rd-party JGO Memory Card for AES & MVS: https://stoneagegamer.com/jgo-memory-ca ... s-mvs.html

----------
The Brook Super Convertor for Neo-Geo MVS, AES & CD: https://stoneagegamer.com/super-convert ... brook.html Allows the end-user with the ability to use both PS3 & PS4 arcade sticks and gamepads with above listed hardware + portable supergun setups (with the Neo-Geo DB-15 controller interface ports already installed). Buy two for support for both Player 1 and Player 2 for best results. Easy as pie with it's robust versatility and usage.
----------

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Bassa-Bassa]

Jotego has confirmed he's involved: "You may have seen Plaion's announcement of an ASIC based NeoGeo console.

Furrtek has implied on twitter (without stating directly) that he's involved.

This basically means that they most likely took the Mister core and turned it into an ASIC. No real 68K/Z80 involved here, just HDL into ASIC. Which is fine as the Mister core is, as far as I know, highly accurate if not cycle exact. What may NOT be fine are the extras that they bolted on top of this:

• HDMI video processing / scaling lag

• Aspect ratio / scanlines

• Controller input lag

• Controller parts (is it Seimitsu like real AES controllers, or cheaper chinese garbage?)

• Quality of the plastics

• Do carts have ROMs or flash (e.g. NAND which slowly degrades and you end up losing/corrupting whatever is stored there eventually)

I'll add another - overscan. Are they being faithful and displaying the original garbage when present, or are they removing it by modifying timings?

tbh when I owned a Neo Geo I found it terribly disappointing. It's a shockingly bare-bones experience for such a luxury product, especially compared to all the materials and extras Japanese PC game publishers were putting into their packages to justify high prices. AES games don't even get a pause function, never mind anything as exotic as a practice mode for a fighting game.

It was long ago, but I don't remember any of my AES games lacking a pause function? Select button, was it.

It is indeed the select button.

Yeah, now I recall it being unintendedly pressed once and again on most demanding games due to its location. I'm forseeing many disappointments with people who never touched one of these before. The pushbuttons are way below any of today's standards. The lever, while really really nice, was too short. And it all got a very hollow feel.

I'm totally sceptic with this release but I don't think it's aimed at "most people". I mean, it's getting even analog video out.

Now watch its analog video output be only composite lol

I think I've read somewhere it's confirmed to also be analog RGB, and they want it to be feature-accurate (with extras), so yeah.

[Emerl]

What may NOT be fine are the extras that they bolted on top of this:

• HDMI video processing / scaling lag

• Aspect ratio / scanlines

• Controller input lag

• Controller parts (is it Seimitsu like real AES controllers, or cheaper chinese garbage?)

• Quality of the plastics

• Do carts have ROMs or flash (e.g. NAND which slowly degrades and you end up losing/corrupting whatever is stored there eventually)

A few questionable things on this list. The quality of plastic on the AES and its stick were... not good. If you are trying to buy an AES now you are sorting through a bunch with cracked chassis — moreso than I've seen with any other retro console. As far as the plastic on the controllers, it creaks quite a bit on every one I've touched. The plastic on both is actually an opportunity to be much better than the original, which I hope they take.

There's also room for improvement when it comes to the stick and buttons, which, despite being Seimitsu, do not match the feeling of full-size Seimitsu parts on a larger stick or real arcade panel.

At $90 each I agree it's very unlikely that they're using mask ROM for the carts, though EEPROMs are possible. But if they do go NAND, while this will be worse than the original, it's par for the course for every cart-based system since the Nintendo DS to use NAND. Still, at $90/cart it's hard to complain, and I think NAND at that price versus mask or EEPROMs at a significantly greater cost is a very reasonable decision for them to have made.

Controller lag isn't likely to be an issue (unless you're using wireless controllers, which are optional, and even then could be as low as 1ms if they use a good implementation) since they're going with the original DB15 ports, and it wouldn't make any sense to not just wire the inputs directly like the original (and would likely affect compatibility with previous accessories).

The HDMI scaling is, IMO, the biggest potential stumbling block. If they can match the CPS2-DigiAV as a lagless solution (possible, given that they will have direct access to digital video), then great. But regardless, RGB + an outboard scaler will be an option, and possibly better than the original AES given the not-great RGB quality of the AES unless modded (and even then, some people could never get rid of jailbars).

Overall, the fact that they got Furrtek and Jotego deeply involved gives me a lot of hope, and from everything that has been revealed, they have made great choices with their approach to this machine. The only ones I really disagree with are: 1. not making the wired stick available for separate purchase; 2. going with the modern rather than OG layout for the Neo Geo CD.

Given that the device comes out in 7 months, I am sure they will be trickling out more information about all of these things to maintain the hype, so we'll see. Waiting to preorder until a real review drops is perfectly reasonable, and in most cases, the smart thing to do.

[Kiken]

tbh when I owned a Neo Geo I found it terribly disappointing. It's a shockingly bare-bones experience for such a luxury product, especially compared to all the materials and extras Japanese PC game publishers were putting into their packages to justify high prices. AES games don't even get a pause function, never mind anything as exotic as a practice mode for a fighting game.

It was long ago, but I don't remember any of my AES games lacking a pause function? Select button, was it.

Yep. In AES mode, Select button pauses. In MVS mode, Select button is coin-up.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

There's the TerraOnion's Neo-Geo Pro AES flashcart: https://stoneagegamer.com/neosd-pro-aes ... nload.html that runs everything including homebrew (with the exception of the MVS/AES "Last Hope" homebrew stg title). Even the ability to boot-up/play Neo-Geo CD games on an Neo-Geo AES console -- how cool is that?

The Neo-Geo AES console even outputs in component video through the AV analog output port as well.

----------
Given the current plastics used with the Plaion previously manufactured Atari 2600+ & 7800+ retro consoles, they're very high-quality to begin with -- so no worries with the modern-day plastics used with in the manufacturing processes of the upcoming Neo-Geo+ AES console & AES+ arcade stick reproductions associated with Plaion (they already know in advance what proper plastics to use even when doing a prototype build of said AES+ console & related AES+ arcade stick "outer shell-wise" -- if any inconsistency issues are brought up/arise during the prototype outer shell builds/molding process, they're rectified/fixed ahead of time before actual production takes place/begins -- that's "standard common knowledge/protocol" in manufacturing nowadays whether it's a limited edition release or for mass production in general). It's business as usual.
----------

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Steven]

Yeah, now I recall it being unintendedly pressed once and again on most demanding games due to its location. I'm forseeing many disappointments with people who never touched one of these before. The pushbuttons are way below any of today's standards. The lever, while really really nice, was too short. And it all got a very hollow feel.

Yeah I think I hit the select button by mistake a few times too when working the lever. I use wine grip, so I've probably bumped it with my hand at least once.

The whole AES just feels low quality, honestly. I'm not sure if that has something to do with the plastic being 30+ years old or if it was like that at launch, but it feels that way now. Hollow, brittle, and cheap are the words I'd best use to describe how it feels, and I have always felt that the AES would shatter into pieces if I dropped it. It sure doesn't feel like the premium product it was positioned and priced as. Really hope they improve the quality of the plastic and buttons on this new AES.

Hope the carts are good too; they have added the Scotland course from the CD version to the new AES version of Neo Turf Masters/Big Tournament Golf. I don't know anything about that since I've only played it on AES and MVS, but that sounds cool. Please be excellent cartridges and not cheap junk... but at only 9980 yen each I am rather concerned about the quality. Still very tempted to get Big Tournament Golf Japanese version because that's my favourite Neo Geo game and I would love to have a legit Japanese AES copy, but I don't know. AES Metal Slug 1 would be cool as well, especially given the outrageous price an original copy goes for now is higher than many people's annual salaries, including mine, but between the two I'd rather have Big Tournament Golf.

I don't know. This whole thing is both cool and questionable at the same time. The prices are good and the games are excellent, but I do wonder about the hardware.

Has anyone tried contacting the company to ask about any of the concerns/questions raised so far? Tempted to send them an email.

[Sumez]

For example, on the Mister one can set

Code: Select all

vsync_adjust=2

for near-zero (a few scanlines) lag and have Arcade-fidelity experience. However, that's not compatible with a lot of monitors and televisions out there and the next best setting

Code: Select all

vsync_adjust=1

which is more compatible (but still not fully compatible) introduces 1-2 full frames of lag. The maximally-compatible setting introduces even more lag.

I don't know much about Mister. But is it wrong of me to assume that if the Mister is set to output RGB via HDMI (to my knowledge not compatible with any HDMI devices, but allows for hookup to CRTs such as via the Jamma expander I bought in here last year) you get absolutely zero lag [compared to the OG hardware]?

I've definitely confirmed that the cores for arcade games with known weird refresh rates also do output that rate

[Josh128]

For example, on the Mister one can set

Code: Select all

vsync_adjust=2

for near-zero (a few scanlines) lag and have Arcade-fidelity experience. However, that's not compatible with a lot of monitors and televisions out there and the next best setting

Code: Select all

vsync_adjust=1

which is more compatible (but still not fully compatible) introduces 1-2 full frames of lag. The maximally-compatible setting introduces even more lag.

I don't know much about Mister. But is it wrong of me to assume that if the Mister is set to output RGB via HDMI (to my knowledge not compatible with any HDMI devices, but allows for hookup to CRTs such as via the Jamma expander I bought in here last year) you get absolutely zero lag [compared to the OG hardware]?

I've definitely confirmed that the cores for arcade games with known weird refresh rates also do output that rate

Mister can actually output analog YPbPr 240p directly to CRTs with the proper setup. Ive done it before, dont quite remember how I did it, but yeah.

[brokenhalo]

Hardware related, if anyone is looking to make/mod some arcade sticks for Neo-Geo, I found some prewired cables on ebay that look pretty easy to work with. Just search "NEW 10 Foot 3 Meter 15 pin repair cable for NEO GEO AES Joystick controller".

[Sumez]

Mister can actually output analog YPbPr 240p directly to CRTs with the proper setup. Ive done it before, dont quite remember how I did it, but yeah.

Yes, that's what I'm doing on my arcade cab. I was just wondering how the tech behind it works. With what I know about the whole concept of the system, I'd imagine it mimics the actual lagless analog output of the original hardware?

[Sumez]

Hardware related, if anyone is looking to make/mod some arcade sticks for Neo-Geo, I found some prewired cables on ebay that look pretty easy to work with. Just search "NEW 10 Foot 3 Meter 15 pin repair cable for NEO GEO AES Joystick controller".

Neo Geo controllers use standard D-sub 15 connectors (I think that's the name, right?), nothing proprietary. Should be very easy to source from any electronics supplier
They don't even use serial data transfer, it's just ground plus one pin per switch

[brokenhalo]

Hardware related, if anyone is looking to make/mod some arcade sticks for Neo-Geo, I found some prewired cables on ebay that look pretty easy to work with. Just search "NEW 10 Foot 3 Meter 15 pin repair cable for NEO GEO AES Joystick controller".

Neo Geo controllers use standard D-sub 15 connectors (I think that's the name, right?), nothing proprietary. Should be very easy to source from any electronics supplier
They don't even use serial data transfer, it's just ground plus one pin per switch

You are correct! I just like that these have a 10' cable all ready to go- Stick it through a hole in the case, terminate the wire ends, throw a couple zip ties on the cable to act as a strain relief/clamp, and done! Saves from having to mount a d-sub to the case, wire it, and then have to use an extension cable to go from the case to the console. I'll post some pics once I get my cases in and put together. Should be nice.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Hardware related, if anyone is looking to make/mod some arcade sticks for Neo-Geo, I found some prewired cables on ebay that look pretty easy to work with. Just search "NEW 10 Foot 3 Meter 15 pin repair cable for NEO GEO AES Joystick controller".

Neo Geo controllers use standard D-sub 15 connectors (I think that's the name, right?), nothing proprietary. Should be very easy to source from any electronics supplier
They don't even use serial data transfer, it's just ground plus one pin per switch

You are correct! I just like that these have a 10' cable all ready to go- Stick it through a hole in the case, terminate the wire ends, throw a couple zip ties on the cable to act as a strain relief/clamp, and done! Saves from having to mount a d-sub to the case, wire it, and then have to use an extension cable to go from the case to the console. I'll post some pics once I get my cases in and put together. Should be nice.

For brokenhalo,

Could you do a "color-coded" wiring diagram of the 10 foot DB-15 Neo-Geo wired cable for both the arcade stick & all six buttons: Start, Select & Buttons A, B, C & D?

Thanks in advance,

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Sumez]

A single google search for "neo geo controller pinout" gives lots of results

[Lemnear]

They sure know how to make themselves desired, damn it...

[MintyTheCat]

I have spoken to a couple of friends about the AES+.

For one, the idea of having new memory cards is great as many will be non-functional now; as I recall, the batteries are inside the memory card itself and not easy to remove, so many will more than likely leaked and corroded the PCB.

Having new sticks that are the same as the originals is also welcome. I used that stick a lot over the years and I quite like it.
I have I think 3 originals and then two NeoGeo-X USB type ones too and I'd be happy to have some more.

The machine itself: I haven't looked into the current state of ASIC reversing but if they handed over the designs and such then it should be fairly straight forward to put together CPLD based solutions - which is a one-time write but it doesn't require the bitstream to be loaded into the device as it would in an FPGA's case.

Let's see how well they do this production, but many of us are quietly hopeful that it will be decent.

Games wise: having a means to play carts, and a few were MVS only before such as Shock Troopers is welcome. I own pretty much all that I wanted on the AES and MVS, but I'd be happy to get a physical copy of Samurai Spirits 5 and play that as I haven't touched it since it came out I think back in 2004 - time flies, kids

Until I see photos of the PCB I really won't know anything, but we'll see - fingers crossed over here.

[Steven]

They sure know how to make themselves desired, damn it...

I think at least part of this is the marketing being carried somewhat by the cool/sleek/whatever design of the AES itself. It's just a cool-looking object. Then you actually see one in person and it's fucking huge, like nearly the size of the original PS5. At least it's not horribly ungainly like the almost equally massive PC Engine Shuttle lol.

[Lemnear]

They sure know how to make themselves desired, damn it...

I think at least part of this is the marketing being carried somewhat by the cool/sleek/whatever design of the AES itself. It's just a cool-looking object. Then you actually see one in person and it's fucking huge, like nearly the size of the original PS5. At least it's not horribly ungainly like the almost equally massive PC Engine Shuttle lol.

It's certainly very elegant, but the white version is hideous. It's perfect for those who already own an original AES, but it's a horrible eyesore. The controller alone is nice.
Logically, however, the 899 euro-dollar bundle is the best, considering that the 10 games alone are 800€/$. For the remaining 99, you get the console, 2 sticks, 1 controller, and the memory card, which is mandatory anyway.

[Steven]

the white version is hideous.

Oh god yes it is. Do not want! I might have been interested if they had the same set but in black, but they don't.

I'd like to see more specs on this thing before I do anything involving it anyway. I'm hoping it will good enough to replace my AES, and hopefully better than the AES, but I am skeptical for now.

[Lemnear]

the white version is hideous.

Oh god yes it is. Do not want! I might have been interested if they had the same set but in black, but they don't.

I'd like to see more specs on this thing before I do anything involving it anyway. I'm hoping it will good enough to replace my AES, and hopefully better than the AES, but I am skeptical for now.

Oh, God, I wouldn't be skeptical about the performance because it's technically a REAL NeoGeo AES. I'm actually wondering how far emulation is from a real NeoGeo these days. Because the expense involved is quite significant.

[Josh128]

the white version is hideous.

Oh god yes it is. Do not want! I might have been interested if they had the same set but in black, but they don't.

I'd like to see more specs on this thing before I do anything involving it anyway. I'm hoping it will good enough to replace my AES, and hopefully better than the AES, but I am skeptical for now.

Oh, God, I wouldn't be skeptical about the performance because it's technically a REAL NeoGeo AES. I'm actually wondering how far emulation is from a real NeoGeo these days. Because the expense involved is quite significant.

Emulation is perfect, indistinguishable to the human eye and ear, as far as I know. Basically has been for 2+ decades now.

[Hazuki]

Emulation is perfect, indistinguishable to the human eye and ear, as far as I know. Basically has been for 2+ decades now.

Indeed it is. I remember ever since as far back as 2003 I could emulate Neo Geo stuff perfectly in my Pentium 4 with Windows XP.

I might still get this AES anyway if it's good enough and doesn't turn out too expensive in my country. I already have a CMVS though so this isn't high priority.

[Steven]

the white version is hideous.

Oh god yes it is. Do not want! I might have been interested if they had the same set but in black, but they don't.

I'd like to see more specs on this thing before I do anything involving it anyway. I'm hoping it will good enough to replace my AES, and hopefully better than the AES, but I am skeptical for now.

Oh, God, I wouldn't be skeptical about the performance because it's technically a REAL NeoGeo AES. I'm actually wondering how far emulation is from a real NeoGeo these days. Because the expense involved is quite significant.

We will see. It's more like "theoretically it's a real Neo Geo AES" at this point; we don't know what exactly it is yet beyond some vague marketing stuff, and there are no guarantees that they won't mess up something somewhere, or make only an approximation of a real AES instead. They aren't going for 100% accuracy, of course, given that it has HDMI out and stuff like that, but you know...

[Bassa-Bassa]

Emulation is perfect, indistinguishable to the human eye and ear, as far as I know. Basically has been for 2+ decades now.

Indeed it is. I remember ever since as far back as 2003 I could emulate Neo Geo stuff perfectly in my Pentium 4 with Windows XP.

Up until 3 years ago or so you couldn't emulate, say, Garou "perfectly", and the glitches were quite evident unless you overclocked the emulation. And input latency was always behind the real thing until Groovymame's frame delay or Mister's core were born (and finished). I guess "perfectly" has different meanings depending on you ask.

[Hazuki]

Up until 3 years ago or so you couldn't emulate, say, Garou "perfectly", and the glitches were quite evident unless you overclocked the emulation. And input latency was always behind the real thing until Groovymame's frame delay or Mister's core were born (and finished). I guess "perfectly" has different meanings depending on you ask.

That's why I said "Neo Geo stuff", not "every single Neo Geo game ever". I remember most being fine.

I'm interested to know more about those Garou glitches and maybe other games that were also bugged.

[Bassa-Bassa]

https://mametesters.org/view.php?id=3954

[R79]

I seem to remember playing Metal Slug on a PC around the year 2000, bit choppy of course, Win '98 possibly. By then, any of the pubs, snooker clubs or bowling alleys where you might see a battered 4-slot MVS were gone, and the Saturn version was pretty sought after, with the home cart already really expensive.

So what shooters were on the system in total? I can think of:


Strikers 1945 Plus

Alpha Mission II

Ghost Pilots

Sonic Wings 3

Blazing Star (pretty sure this was always high priced this century for AES)

Pulstar

You had a shooting adjacent game like NAM-1975 sat on eBay for years well under £100 IIRC, but then kinda trebled in price last few years or so, same with Magician Lord. It's sad, as they were kind of great entry games for a long time. I remember seeing King of Monsters shown on UK TV at the time, clearly looked more beefy than your average Mega Drive type release. You can still pick up Fatal Fury Special fairly reasonably complete, big game in it's time, and was still played competitively in Japan many years later. I think all the other 16-Bits had conversions (NEC infamously used an 'arcade card'), but all cut down in some way to the real thing.