Ways to make shmups appeal to mainstreamers again

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:42 pm

Icarus is absolutely right, and I tend to feel the same way about the wayward Metroid series. Instead of diluting things and trying to make them more presentable to the uninitiated, how about dropping the "us and them" bullshit and highlighting what the genre (or series) really has to offer - what it's supposed to be about?

It's perfectly possible for this genre to feel accessible and inclusive without losing an inch of its focus. It may never be massively lucrative again, but fans are only further hampering its proliferation by adopting these attitudes and using compartmentalizing labels like "mainstreamers" as cattle-prods.

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:57 pm

It may never be massively lucrative again, but fans are only further hampering its proliferation by adopting these attitudes and using compartmentalizing labels like "mainstreamers" as cattle-prods.

So help me, this sounds like a recipe for stasis. "What's the definition of insanity?"

I am also a bit amazed at the persistent either/or thinking. I can understand the pessimism shown by those who are quite comfortable with the current status of the genre, but for those who would like to see the genre enjoy more popularity, I think optimism and a willingness to accept change will serve them better.

I suppose more aggressive marketing could be substituted for change, but I think it'd be more effective as a supplement.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:28 pm

Randorama wrote:I'll use the ultimate red card headbutt combo, so you're warned

I thought you were the Italian guy.

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:48 pm

howmuchkeefe wrote:So help me, this sounds like a recipe for stasis. "What's the definition of insanity?"

in·san·i·ty n

Persistent mental disorder or derangement.
Unsoundness of mind sufficient in the judgment of a civil court to render a person unfit to maintain a contractual or other legal relationship or to warrant commitment to a mental health facility.
In most criminal jurisdictions, a degree of mental malfunctioning considered to be sufficient to relieve the accused of legal responsibility for the act committed.

Completely irrelevant to the topic in hand.

howmuchkeefe wrote:I am also a bit amazed at the persistent either/or thinking. I can understand the pessimism shown by those who are quite comfortable with the current status of the genre, but for those who would like to see the genre enjoy more popularity, I think optimism and a willingness to accept change will serve them better.

I suppose more aggressive marketing could be substituted for change, but I think it'd be more effective as a supplement.

The only people proliferating the either/or standpoint here are the people continually using the 'mainstream' tag in an incorrect manner.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that change is not always a necessary requirement for progression? The genre has been and will continue to be popular through its own merits. If you really want to make the genre more popular with the masses, then try some of the more sane methods presented in this topic, such as promoting the genre for what it is: pure, simple, pick-up-and-play gameplay. Promote the genre for what it can present: continual challenge with no artificially added gameplay hours. Promote it for what it can develop: the competitive spirit.

Progressive thinking does not always have to involve total change, but can also involve continual development of what is currently in place.

Games such as Ikaruga and Gradius 5 have already done this. How? Netranking tournaments. Did anyone care about the added value content in those games? No, they were too busy kicking each other's asses in the competition. Did it need any extra value content to push it to the masses? No, they worked on one simple premise alone: pure gameplay.
Why bother diluting a working concept with extra junk when it has:
- a) already been tried, tested and failed and
- b) has no guarantee that it'll be well received by the people you're targeting?
You can throw around terms like 'pessimistic' to describe the peole opposed to your standpoint all you like. I think you'll find the correct term is 'realistic' though.
I am open to change, always have been. I am however, realistic enough to see that change might not always be the best solution to a problem.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:50 pm

Let's not stick staticly to roles, BM

At any case: if no one explained to you, my fellow silly boys, shmups are a genre that is produced in Japan. There, they have a a mixed status of "biggest niche", in the sense that they can sell decently, but not as the big guns. Japanese players definitely don't like wild innovation, and shmup companies don't have tons of money, so all of the discourses posted here show no grasp whatsoever of the issue. After all, the thread itself has been produced by someone in dire need of Prozac+, with answers by fellows with the same necessity.

In a nutshell, why don't you play shmups instead of wasting the time of your life asking for ships say "fucking niggah!"?*

* Of course i abhor such language but for the dumb masses, i made a reference to a game endorsing a racistic view of black people, which happens to be mainstream.

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:56 pm

Randorama wrote:In a nutshell, why don't you play shmups instead of wasting the time of your life asking for ships say "fucking niggah!"?*

My past three responses have cost me 3 credits worth of playtime. Or three episodes of anime viewing. AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!! Goddamn you timewasters, I want my hour back! >_<#

^_-

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:18 pm

It is a figure of speech, Icarus: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." It has been attributed to Ben Franklin and to Einstein. I don't really know who coined the phrase.

I thought that it was a rather well-known figure of speech.

The only people proliferating the either/or standpoint here are the people continually using the 'mainstream' tag in an incorrect manner.

What is mainstream? Well, in the sense I am using the term, that which is well known and has sold well enough that it is practically a household name: Games like GTA, Halo, Madden, Street Fighter, Tony Hawk, etc.

I feel that these games share certain characteristics, and that these characteristics add to the appeal of these games, and that these appealing characteristics are partially (perhaps even mostly) responsible for their popularity.

I have postulated that a shmup may appeal to both "mainstreamers" and more traditional shmup fans (ah, but who are they? Cave fans, like myself? Raizing fans, like yourself? Both of us? Yes, I think both of us); I've even suggested that both styles could be represented on one DVD under one banner, in the form of separate playing modes. I see my position as a distinct example of "both/and" thinking. How is it "either/or"?

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that change is not always a necessary requirement for progression? The genre has been and will continue to be popular through its own merits. If you really want to make the genre more popular with the masses, then try some of the more sane methods presented in this topic, such as promoting the genre for what it is: pure, simple, pick-up-and-play gameplay. Promote the genre for what it can present: continual challenge with no artificially added gameplay hours. Promote it for what it can develop: the competitive spirit.

I think that compromise would work better: IMO, shmups lack some of the characteristics that I believe have helped other games achieve popularity.

I definitely agree that the genre would benefit from more advertising exposure.

Progressive thinking does not always have to involve total change, but can also involve continual development of what is currently in place.

Hard to disagree with that. However, as I've pointed out before, refinements haven't seemed to have dramatically improved the popularity of the genre. Better marketing might pick up the slack. So could assuming some of the characteristics of better selling games. Why not combine the two? A two fisted fluffernutter of fury, to break down the wall of obscurity!

- a) already been tried, tested and failed

I'm not convinced. I think that such attempts may have simply been poorly executed.

b) has no guarantee that it'll be well received by the people you're targeting?

Here's my thinking: If the mechanic has been implemented in another, better selling game, and if this mechanic is often praised by fans of that game, and if this mechanic could be incorporated elegantly into a STG: Is there not some reason to believe that it could be similarly appreciated?

You can throw around terms like 'pessimistic' to describe the peole opposed to your standpoint all you like. I think you'll find the correct term is 'realistic' though.

I could have used "conservative", or "ossified". You could have used "sane".

I am open to change, always have been.

Glad to hear it!

I am however, realistic enough to see that change might not always be the best solution to a problem.

This is also hard to disagree with; I also think that such can often be the case. I'm just not sure that it's case here.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:19 pm

Icarus wrote:
Randorama wrote:In a nutshell, why don't you play shmups instead of wasting the time of your life asking for ships say "fucking niggah!"?*
My past three responses have cost me 3 credits worth of playtime. Or three episodes of anime viewing. AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!! Goddamn you timewasters, I want my hour back! >_<#

^_-

I'm "working", so my excuse is perfect. I also wonder if people here know what a shmup is...it would be hilarious of someone playing GTA, thinking it's a shmup, and then harassing people on the intarweb with "omg damn the mainstreamers!!1!".

I bet it's also the vast majority of human cases posting in this thread -__-!

roker · Post by **roker** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:11 pm

put some gay anime characters in the ga . . . oh wait

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:59 pm

Ways to make it appeal to mainstream,

FUCK THE MAINSTREAM GAMERS, THEY THINK SHMUPS ARE CRAP TO BEING WITH.

EddyMRA · Post by **EddyMRA** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:06 pm

Fighter17 wrote:Ways to make it appeal to mainstream,

FUCK THE MAINSTREAM GAMERS, THEY THINK SHMUPS ARE CRAP TO BEING WITH.

Not all of them do.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:27 pm

Alluro wrote:
Fighter17 wrote:Ways to make it appeal to mainstream,

FUCK THE MAINSTREAM GAMERS, THEY THINK SHMUPS ARE CRAP TO BEING WITH.
Not all of them do.

True, but MOST people believe shmups are crap. The people who don't think shmups are crap are not enough to make shmups mainstream again.

Post by **system11** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:29 pm

POP Sands Of Time style rewind.

Actually not as crazy as it initially sounds, trade score for a very limited rewind feature.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:44 pm

bloodflowers wrote:POP Sands Of Time style rewind.

Actually not as crazy as it initially sounds, trade score for a very limited rewind feature.

Remove extends and you've got yourself a deal

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:55 pm

Uhm, i know that there is a game in which you can get slowdown points (or something similar), it think it would be much nice, especially if it allows for newbies to enjoy their play and for veterans to toy with the engine.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:48 pm

I once had this idea of having a meter or a stock of some sort, and you can use it to teleport. You press the button, the game freezes in time, move where you want to be, then let go of the button to resume the game. Time stop in a shmup if you will.

J-Manic · Post by **J-Manic** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:02 pm

How to make shmups more appealing to mainstream gamers? That's easy. I'm sure more TV advertisements would do the trick. They will see the gameplay during the commercials and they would go

, and say, "That game looks awesome!". I know this for a fact, since my friends, who all play only next gen. games, are always blown away when watching me play a shmup.

If commercials are out of the question, then maybe shmups should appear more in various tournaments and conventions. People will see, and they will want.

tekneekz · Post by **tekneekz** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:11 pm

du ma yup yup ^

EddyMRA · Post by **EddyMRA** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:26 am

Fighter17 wrote:True, but MOST people believe shmups are crap. The people who don't think shmups are crap are not enough to make shmups mainstream again.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I let someone who likes Final Fantasy games try out Ikaruga on the Gamecube, and his comment was: "That's it?"

Mind you, he only got past the FIRST SECTION in Chapter 1, where you leave that giant ship. Very superficial.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:41 am

I do the same thing when playing Final Fantasy games in front of others after about 10 minutes of pressing the X button

Post by **Icarus** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:46 am

Alluro wrote:Yeah, I know what you mean. I let someone who likes Final Fantasy games try out Ikaruga on the Gamecube, and his comment was: "That's it?"

Mind you, he only got past the FIRST SECTION in Chapter 1, where you leave that giant ship. Very superficial.

Har. I recently introduced a friend to Gradius 5, and he used five credits on the FIRST STAGE alone. Most of them during the orb field before the boss. I don't think me rolling around on the floor laughing my ass off helped either. ^o^

umi · Post by **umi** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:13 am

Icarus wrote:Har. I recently introduced a friend to Gradius 5, and he used five credits on the FIRST STAGE alone. Most of them during the orb field before the boss. I don't think me rolling around on the floor laughing my ass off helped either. ^o^

Not completely related, but this just reminded me of the time I forced my sister to sit down and beat strikers 1945 2 :P Put the difficulty all the way down to monkey, and made her sit there 'til the end. The last couple of levels took a while for her with the forced restarts. At the last level she wasn't using bombs enough, so she was having troubles -- she was trying to leave the room, but I wouldn't let her :P Bordering on abuse, but hey... she beat it in the end! I definitely like psykio's wide range of difficulty settings. Makes them quite accessible I think.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:32 pm

Randorama wrote:" i don't want to think, i just want to react to bullets"

Hey Rando, can I use that as my [non-sarcastic] sig?

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:42 pm

Davey wrote:
Randorama wrote:" i don't want to think, i just want to react to bullets"
Hey Rando, can I use that as my [non-sarcastic] sig?

By all means, for great justice!!1!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:58 pm

Shmups' favorite thread returns!

So I'm playing Burnout Revenge and thinking it would work so well with a shooting game. People love Burnout, I love Burnout. Everyone loves Burnout! People like smaller skill-based challenges.

You've got about 10 sections, in each there are a handful of 2-5 minute tasks. Think about it:

Different modes could be boss endurance (time = medals), various score based activities in a normal stage (maybe like a 1.5 minute section... divide stage into 2 parts), "grand prix" = string these things together into a complete stage. (More imaginative challenges would also be used!) Now have these goals for every stage, with score charts for everything.

Let's give this game 9 stages. The special 10th could be all stages strung together for more traditional players. These would have to be unlocked in a similar way as in Burnout.

I'd want that so bad. What I think is great about it: it doesn't abandon skill-based gameplay. That is the focus, and specifically stated. And it would have a lot of gameplay variety. The developer could reuse a stage for more gameplay than just a 20 minute play through with two tasks in mind (survival/score).

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:03 pm

Yeah, I really like the idea of unlocking levels. Get rid of continues altogether in console shmups: require that the player get through the task/level in order to open the next task/level. The recent Metal Slug ports have something close to this insofar as they freely invite you to start at whatever level you like, provided you've unlocked it. This is arcade challenge well adapted to the console. (Though, perhaps this isn't the best example, as perhaps it amounts to nothing more than a practice mode that isn't labelled as such.)

Add in different types of goals required to advance-- survival, score, time attack-- and I want to preorder now.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:37 pm

Add in different types of goals required to advance-- survival, score, time attack

It'd be like Caravan shooting modes updated.

droid · Post by **droid** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:42 pm

I've been going back to play alot of the early 80's classics. Looking at the games back then, I'm amazed at the amount of innovation and variety of gameplay from 1980-83. I'd say there hasnt been much major innovation within the shmups genre. For it to hit it big with mainstream gamers itd have to be something very innovative and fun (I realize this is a duh statement, heheh)

I think the multiplayer aspect has potential, especially with the online play options being offered by companies like microsoft, etc. I'd love to see a co-op WW2 shooter where you fly in formation with teamates with the goal of penetrating air defense gun turrets + dogfights with players on the defending team.

Droid

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:58 pm

Btw, the game that got me hooked on unlocking by way of diverse tasks was Project Gotham Racing 2. I actually enjoyed it more than Burnout, though I'm probably in the minority in that regard. Plus it includes Geometry Wars.

I've heard of those Caravan shooting modes, though I've never played. Probably worth looking into, though I'd much prefer a newer game with this structure/organization.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:16 am

I got an FPS gamer into scrolling shooters by introducing him to Bakraid. give that game to any "industrial-style" loving gamer and they'll fall in love with it.

True story.
I see it as you give a game that has a style the same as the person likes, they'll get into it. I'm quite serious too.

if no one explained to you, my fellow silly boys, shmups are a genre that is produced in Japan.

majorly, but definitely not exclusively by any point. I have been planning to develop one of my own, but at the moment the coder is busy with something else. (that and writing a design document to give the team members is quite a pain, since I'm not exactly the best writer. If I could find a program that you can type by talking I'd do that.

)