21st Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[Lethe]

Remind me again why everyone seems to rank either DOJ or DDP tops, and DFK a distant third? I was playing them again last night and I came away thinking DFK was the easy standout.

I don't like the hyper counter/laser blocking, it's exactly the last kind of thing I want from a DDP game and I end up wishing it just played like DOJ again. The satisfying mechanical-strict linking is all but gone.
Playing for survival is boring and low-level scoring is barely more involved. The first loop rank being reset to 0 after every stage is dumb. I hate forced autobombs.
It doesn't have the cool factor of the previous entries. Nothing about it comes off as inspired. At least the BL music is interesting.
cv1k funny slowdown.
It does have very good controls for a Cave game, that's a positive.

[Sengoku Strider]

People thought DFK was too easy to be a DDP game. Hence, DOJ was dubbed as the king because apparently we’re all masochists here.

Speaking for myself, I was only half joking when I said I generally don’t like lolicons in my shmups. Sole exception would be Touhou. But I might be blinded by nostalgia in this case.

LOL, DOJ kicks my ass, maybe I just need more time learning it but it definitely feels like it's at the harder end of the Cave spectrum. DFK's difficulty is fine by me, I'm up for banging my head against a hard challenge but I don't have to live there full time. As for lolis, I could generally do without but as long as they're not embarrassingly hyper-sexualized I'm fine.

I don't like the hyper counter/laser blocking, it's exactly the last kind of thing I want from a DDP game and I end up wishing it just played like DOJ again. The satisfying mechanical-strict linking is all but gone.
Playing for survival is boring and low-level scoring is barely more involved. The first loop rank being reset to 0 after every stage is dumb. I hate forced autobombs.
It doesn't have the cool factor of the previous entries. Nothing about it comes off as inspired. At least the BL music is interesting.
cv1k funny slowdown.
It does have very good controls for a Cave game, that's a positive.

thanks for the specific answers. I'm fine with them adding a defensive layer to the aura burn mechanic, and I'm not good enough to be stressed over stuff about loops. But I can understand things like hating the forced auto-bomb, later games that offered a higher-risk higher-reward option got it right.

One thing I will offer in DFK's favour is Ketsupachi.

[To Far Away Times]

DFK needs the autobomb because the stages are poorly designed and the autobomb is there to make it playable.

It's also a step back from DOJ in terms of aesthetic cohesion. There are individual things I like about DFK, but the game is kind of a mess.

[Faith]

DFK needs the autobomb because the stages are poorly designed and the autobomb is there to make it playable.

For reaching 2nd loop Ura you cannot use more than 2 bomba. So, definitely game is designed to be played without Auto Bomba. I think there is still some misunderstanding with DFK... it is still a very routing-heavy STG. But... really... this is quite typical Cave style. But even if we compare with example SDOJ... where you can change Auto Bomba On/Off... the funny thing is, for SDOJ if you want to play just for non-TLB "simple" survival clear... then you *want* Auto Bomba to be Off. But if you want to reach Hibachi, then you play with Auto Bomba On lol.

Because in SDOJ, if you have Auto Bomba Off... every time you die, bomba cap increase by +1 until eventually it 6. Assume playing Shot Type. But... if you turn Auto Bomba On... the bomba cap will always be 3. And that is much worse for players who did not route game properly.

The reason why players only turn Auto Bomba On for SDOJ Hibachi clear, is beacuse to trigger Hibachi, cannot miss more than once. So, you will not benefit from bomba cap incease... and thus players turn Auto Bomba On to treat bomba as extra extend resource. And, anyway, for SDOJ if you turn Auto Bomba On... it clear whole stock if it is triggered. So... that is why it is actually a worse thing for newer players. Rather properly learn to manually bomba... and to have much more bomba available to player since SDOJ St 4 and St 5 are quite challenging to route.

Big problem with DFK is St 5 Laser Wheels are pain in ass to route. So many people rely on Auto Bomba there. But it can be reliably routed.

Honestly. Even for me. First impression of DFK not the best. But, after playing it more... especially the other versions and arranges... really think it is a good package. And, of course... DFK visual spam is super, super great lol. Can be as heavy as Crimzon Clover. Love that a lot!!!~

[Sengoku Strider]

One other thing about DOJ - severe lack of helicopter rotors.

that said, I did get sucked into it for an hour or two last night giving it another go. It definitely has that '1 more try' factor.

[Acid]

Finally an appearance by Ginga Force.

[Whiskers]

LOL, DOJ kicks my ass

And so was mine. Went full shmup with WL for about half a year. Only after that did I realise I abhor its scoring mechanic. I don’t care if everyone and their mother thinks it’s the best shmup ever existed. I ain’t going back there, chief.

As for lolis, I could generally do without but as long as they're not embarrassingly hyper-sexualized I'm fine.

Cue SDOJ!

I still can’t believe CAVE turned Hibachi into a lolicon with a multiple personality disorder. What the fuck, man?

[KAI]

Glad I made it in time this year.
Hoping to see some milestone/rs34 shmups and ibara in good positions.

[Sengoku Strider]

Spent more time with DFK last night, while watching Jaimers' DOJ run. Yeah, I do see the point about chaining. DOJ seems to take influence from Garegga's first screens, giving you a non-threatening but fairly complex routing puzzle right off the bat to keep restarts from getting stale. DFK lets you chain the entire first half of the stage purely by holding the fire button, I dunno if entering the alternate loop presents more interesting complexity there.

Once you hit stages 3 & 4 things get more serious with clouds of bullets to navigate through, but the first couple are a breeze. I have no big issue with them trying to make their flagship series more accessible in an era where arcades were dying off, but I understand why this would be something that may push really serious players in the direction of another title.

Hoping to see some milestone/rs34 shmups and ibara in good positions.

I think Ibara needs a re-release for it to get more traction. It's now been 20 years since its lone import-only PS2 home conversion. I'm surprised it hasn't seen one, given the enduring love for Garegga, Feveron and those types of characters it seems like something that was just ahead of its time vis-a-vis being appreciated in the West.

[ShootTheCore]

Thanks for hosting these Nifty - they've definitely inspired me to try out several new games over the years. I hope someone else carries on the torch next year!

[ShootTheCore]

I think Ibara needs a re-release for it to get more traction. It's now been 20 years since its lone import-only PS2 home conversion. I'm surprised it hasn't seen one, given the enduring love for Garegga, Feveron and those types of characters it seems like something that was just ahead of its time vis-a-vis being appreciated in the West.

Hopefully M2 will continue to re-release the Cave back catalog.

[To Far Away Times]

Thunder bros, I see six votes so far for Thunder Force III.

We are so back.

[bobhasashotgun]

Is anyone else rooting for Gradius II to finally make the cut? It's been getting some strong votes. Maybe the M2 Gradius collection gave it the boost it needs.

[neat_beans]

Is anyone else rooting for Gradius II to finally make the cut? It's been getting some strong votes. Maybe the M2 Gradius collection gave it the boost it needs.

Definitely me. I didn't even buy the M2 collection but the hype surrounding it made me go back and finally get into the PCE port. Sublime game that I can't believe has never been in the top 25!

[reckon luck]

rearranged my list a bit. i'm prepared to be the only vote for Raiden V. i love that big stupid game.

[Faith]

rearranged my list a bit. i'm prepared to be the only vote for Raiden V. i love that big stupid game.

Haha! Bless you!~ <3

Well... I have Z-Warp on my list... and people probably think Faith crazy :p

But... I think there is a lot some dev can learn from it... on how to make crazy simple STG but... also pocket sized rush and fun!~

[Whiskers]

Is anyone else rooting for Gradius II to finally make the cut? It's been getting some strong votes. Maybe the M2 Gradius collection gave it the boost it needs.

I am. Gradius II is one of my favourite Konami titles. I just can’t put more classic horis onto my list and that makes me feel like a terrible person.

Godspeed, Gradius II! May you make it to the top 25.

[Nifty]

The final week of voting notice is now in place.
Needless to say we're still a fair bit short of total at the moment and the event's already running late so now probably isn't the time to be dawdling

[Mero]

I'll post my list before the deadline for sure.

[Whiskers]

Updates:

• Added a list of HMs
• Knocked down DFK from 20 points to 15

[professor ganson]

I'll post my list before the deadline for sure.

Same! I put it on my calender, in fact.

[jehu]

I always find the process of actually ranking my favorites absolutely impossible. There’s 25 games I like a lot - and mostly in the order I thought of them.

First-to-mindness as a terribly loose proxy for quality.

[Mero]

Just posted my previous list for now, 2 days to tweak it.

[Krushal]

After much debate, I think I'll stick to a short-list.
Fifteen games is very limiting by now, but top-rated stuff like DOJ, Ketsui, Garegga etc. are still too difficult for me to fully enjoy.
Basically, voting with a self-imposed skill-penalty.

Just missing the cut: Phantasmagoria Trues, CosmoDreamer, Subterranean Animism.

[Pizza from yesterday]

Needless to say we're still a fair bit short of total at the moment and [...]

What does this mean?
Is there a minimum number of ballots needed?

[Nifty]

Not really required per se but I prefer to get up to around 70, 60 or less pretty much guarantees an extension. We're basically just on the cusp now depending on how many come in tomorrow.

[Pizza from yesterday]

Ah. Nifty.
Ty~

[BIL]

Not much time for anything but Dick Stock lately, but I had to vote. Thanks again Nifty!

Decided to give Gun.Smoke a big bump up my list. The scoring is busted, and the runtime could use tightening up, things I took a stern eye to in previous years. But! In terms of sheer killing prowess and technique, as well as volatility, it's undeniably one of my evergreens. Would pair it with Saigo no Nindou for a desert island stay. That one's scoring sucks too! All respect to the ハイスコア but ultimately I am just here for kill / be killed.

Also had to toss Tecmo's proto-Cabalesque Senjyo a nod. In hindsight, an intriguingly scoot/shoot-influenced take on the nascent genre. A flop in its time, actually birthed the immensely better-loved Star Force as a direct result. Having never heard of it, but knowing to expect quality from Tecmo's AC dudes, the ACA release was a treat. It's a great Caravan game, with white-knuckle pace and precision. ACA in general has blown up my listing choices. Now I've voted, I'm remembering tons of stuff from just the last couple years I might give a nod later. Godspeed Ham-chans, you've put in a lifetime's work as it is. ;w;7

One of the few games I put time on this year was NMK Macross II, my #1 horeh shiet Hamada-chan ACA pls want. As I'd recalled from a brief STGT dalliance eight years earlier, Macross II is moreish like crack. Nonstop speedkilling and grabbing and riding the medal chain, with simple yet pleasing secrets that are deceptively easy to fuck up at such pace. Reminds of their own Thunder Dragon 2 x Raiden Fighters Jet. Particularly digging the three short, super-tight courses, with IRL buttfucking me atm! The score-or-die quota system also makes it perfect for brisk survival ALLs. Again with the kill / be killed. LOLOLOL u can't die? Nah bro get hit at the wrong time ur coin b FUCC

(I wonder if any of the former Tecmo staff said to have joined NMK were responsible for that rainbow-cycling COMPLETED notice? muh feels )

(former ACA want slot now occupied by mahfuckin SEARCH AND RESCUE which I hope I can vote for soon! I would now, but I feel bad voting for stuff with nonexistent and/or shite ports, and it's the latter via SNK40th. KILLER GAME THO )

[Faith]

Fifteen games is very limiting by now, but top-rated stuff like DOJ, Ketsui, Garegga etc. are still too difficult for me to fully enjoy.
Basically, voting with a self-imposed skill-penalty.

I feel like this will always be "small" problem with voting and some choices >.<"...

Like, for me, I try to make sure that I at least try to experience Expert Mode or 2nd Loop or at least more effort in scoring for STG which have neither before make firm opinion on game quality. Because, this is one genre, especially... where I feel the most of the nuance and most of the ultra fine details will shine the most. Like, for Crimzon Clover, once you play Arcade Unlimited... you will really see how Clover-TAC had pixel/frame-perfect positioning/timing for everything. Everything is where it is for a purpose, and for a reason. Everything come at a very precise time, also for a purpose, and for a reason. So, like with Crimzon Clover, if you only clear Novice, then while you will experience a very, very good game... it is the Arcade modes that really bring this game to a crazy level of precision and perfection.

Same for many Cave STG. When you play them on Expert Mode or 2nd Loop they really becomes a super surgical precision tool. It can become totally different game!

Cave is also known for ultra-precise big-brain scoring system which will really only make the game shine like a perfect diamond once you experience it. Of course, not saying that one cannot appreciate an STG by not scoring or by not playing outside Novice Mode... but saying that this is really what separates some of the best from each other and what makes them unique and stand against the test of time!!~

Like, Eden's Eclipse by X.X Gameroom still not release because developer still doing all precision work and fine-tuning for Hell Difficulty. It is a lot of precise work!!!~

[Faith]

rainbow-cycling COMPLETED notice?

Which site you use to generate that rainbow @_@"... so pretty!!~