Retrotink 4K CE & Morph 4K & OSSC Pro detailed comparison (Review)

[WobblingPixels]

Just wanted to share my review due to latest update. In order to avoid any offtopic in the existing scaler threads I think creating a new one is reasonable.

The review is about the three current-gen 4K retro gaming scalers:

Retrotink 4K CE
Morph 4K + Analog Bridge
OSSC Pro + Legacy AV card

Full Review: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... WfusPeNSsw

This is months of work and I hope it helps to understand the differences between the three scalers.

Short overview:

[Konsolkongen]

Why is the total scaler cost only a 1.0 difference between RetroTink 4K and Morph, when the Morph with Analog bridge is only half the price of the RT4K?

[WobblingPixels]

It's the Retrotink 4K CE not the Pro. The price difference is $100 in the US.

See first page:
"Not to be confused with the Retrotink 4K PRO model which supports more features and comes with a more powerful FPGA at higher price point than the CE model"

[Konsolkongen]

Ah my bad! But why not compare it to the regular RT4K? They are a lot more comparable.

[WobblingPixels]

FPGA wise yes, from costs and features perspective the R4k Pro is in a different range than the other three scalers. So I would expect people who are looking for a scaler in the price range of approximately $400 would pick one of the three.
Generally speaking the differences in FPGA are easy to point out but testing features take much more time. Especially when those features go beyond retro gaming aka my expertise, like VHS recording.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

FPGA wise yes, from costs and features perspective the R4k Pro is in a different range than the other three scalers. So I would expect people who are looking for a scaler in the price range of approximately $400 would pick one of the three.
Generally speaking the differences in FPGA are easy to point out but testing features take much more time. Especially when those features go beyond retro gaming aka my expertise, like VHS recording.

So out of the three listed upscalers listed at $400.00 usd, which one would be the best one for upscaling VHS capturing purposes then?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[WobblingPixels]

I can't really answer that question as VHS recording is not my expertise.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I can't really answer that question as VHS recording is not my expertise.

I know in going with a Super VHS VCR hooked up to the highly recommended/sought after Sony RDR-GX7 DVD recorder deck does produce some excellent results (especially if recording in the highest bitrate format of one hour or less along with a Macrovision anti-copying device installed in the recording chain for wider compatibility in dealing with pre-recorded VHS tapes embedded with the Macrovision scheme already in place).

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This is what would be needed to convert such old-school Stg-based Superplay VHS tapes to DVD-R/DVD+R discs for posterity/safe-keeping archival purposes "down the road."
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PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[SGGG2]

So out of the three listed upscalers listed at $400.00 usd, which one would be the best one for upscaling VHS capturing purposes then?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

If you're a DVD/VHS enthusiast, the answer is none of the above. You want a Retrotink 4k for the telecine features.

[orange808]

These days with true video (not film) content, it's probably best to feed interlaced video directly to your capture card, if possible. The first machine I would try is the OSSC Pro for true video.

If you want to deinterlace or you have interlaced film content, the Silicon Optix IA-100 has Faroudja deinterlacing and you can get 480p output. If that doesn't suit your taste, there's also DVDO machines and Realta options. I understand that Faroudja processing is well liked for anime and that seems to a big thing with some people.

I probably wouldn't use Realta or Reon for film and there are now better options for true video content using software on your PC, but a legacy video processor is still an option. Honestly, I wouldn't use DVDO (Anchor Bay), either. So, if you're capturing something that was recorded with a true "video camera" of the 1980's/90's, you really want to get the original 480i media onto your PC and handle the deinterlacing there later.

I've found the Silicon Optix IA-100 (Faroudja) and DVDO vp50pro (Anchor Bay) to be particularly good at with odd sync. If your tape is really dragging along and making problems, those are suggestions. If it's film content, I think you can use a Silicon Optix IA-100 and feed your capture card 480p. You don't need a RetroTink machine at all. That's probably good enough for most people with any VHS tape. I'm being very picky. Upscale that 480p in software.

[Josh128]

Mike Chi is the fucking man. Single handedly put out the best retro gaming / A>D video processors on the planet. How is that even possible?

[Konsolkongen]

FPGA wise yes, from costs and features perspective the R4k Pro is in a different range than the other three scalers. So I would expect people who are looking for a scaler in the price range of approximately $400 would pick one of the three.
Generally speaking the differences in FPGA are easy to point out but testing features take much more time. Especially when those features go beyond retro gaming aka my expertise, like VHS recording.

I think wi-fi on the Morph makes a huge difference for convenience. The Morph also support auto preset loading via GameID. Either from HDMI modified consoles like most RetroGEM or the Xbox HD+ mod, or via network (GameCube and Wii U currently).
With the right setup it can handle all profile switching automatically for you on these consoles, so you really never have to switch a preset manually.

The wi-fi also allows control via API which can be super useful for some users, as well as FTP and WebUI management of the SD content.

These are important features for me. But not as much for you it seems based on your scores - which is fair. But I do wonder how you come up with these numbers.
Like, how many inputs are required for a perfect 10?

[WobblingPixels]

I think wi-fi on the Morph makes a huge difference for convenience. The Morph also support auto preset loading via GameID. Either from HDMI modified consoles like most RetroGEM or the Xbox HD+ mod, or via network (GameCube and Wii U currently). With the right setup it can handle all profile switching automatically for you on these consoles, so you really never have to switch a preset manually. The wi-fi also allows control via API which can be super useful for some users, as well as FTP and WebUI management of the SD content.

The main features and majority of use cases which you have stated here were mentioned in the review. For auto profile loading with hdmi sources I even gave two detailed examples on how auto loading profiles can save you time and effort.

These are important features for me. But not as much for you it seems based on your scores

Not sure how you came to this conclusion. Auto loading profiles got an 9.1 score, one of the highest scores, and Wifi 8.5.
The score in the short overview shows the average score of all tested main features including wifi and auto loading profiles. ...but the priority which feature you prefer (more or less) is up to you to decide. So I don't mind if someone sets a high priority on wifi when buying a scaler.

Like, how many inputs are required for a perfect 10?

The R4k CE and Morph 4K lack of a RF input. The OSSC Pro Legacy AV board got one last week but I was already finalizing my review. I plan to add it in the future.
Also none of the devices have analog out. You could replace the Legacy board with Extra AV out board (with analog out) on the OSSC Pro but then you would miss out the other inputs.
Last but not least, if you want to connect the big four Composite, S-Video, Component and RGB Scart with analog audio every scaler requires at least one adapter.

[Konsolkongen]

These are important features for me. But not as much for you it seems based on your scores

Not sure how you came to this conclusion. Auto loading profiles got an 9.1 score, one of the highest scores, and Wifi 8.5.
The score in the short overview shows the average score of all tested main features including wifi and auto loading profiles. ...but the priority which feature you prefer (more or less) is up to you to decide. So I don't mind if someone sets a high priority on wifi when buying a scaler.

I was talking about the profile management section where both get 8.5, where one offers management via wi-fi (webUI snd FTP) and the other requires you to insert the SD card in a computer to do the same.

I guess what I’m saying is that
input & output resolution stored to preset + bmp banner = wi-fi management + descriptive text.

Those things even out in your score. That to me seems a little weird since one offers so much more convenience.

I agree that input and output resolution would be great to have in the Morphs presets. This has been suggested, so I’ sure that will happen

[orange808]

I'd go with a list of features and use an "X", "✓", and to identify how well the machine delivers. Add as many specific rows as necessary.

I was surprised that BFI is ranked the way it is. "240Hz" (actually frame x4) BFI absolutely blows 120Hz (frame x2) BFI out of the water with PCE and NES. It's night and day difference for me. It's so good, in fact, that I have abandoned 4k filters for the remarkable motion clarity. I suppose it depends on your display. I have a beamer with three chips and a light cannon bulb. When those little mirrors shift (it takes about a microsecond) on the display chips, the pixels change in about a microsecond. There is no grey to grey or anything like that. There are no details or other considerations.

There are no specifics of manufacturing or distance between what the tech can do and what the manufactured panels actually do. The pixels change instantly. Full stop. Full brightness instantly. The motion clarity using BlurBusters 240Hz BFI with it is remarkable--even better than the built in implementation on the beamer itself.

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I don't understand mentioning bare line multiple modes at all, because the processing time (lag) for most true video processing modes on these machines is less than 1ms (barring usage of features like tate or deinterlacing that cannot be performed with line duplication).

I am (rather) strict about adding lag, but less than just one millisecond is too small for most of us to measure or detect. Even if you did have a camera that could find the lag, that would only prove how little <1ms matters. Less than one millisecond is a ridiculously small number!

Using pure line multiplication makes no sense when you can get video processing features with essentially no additional lag. You also get the ability to normalize the output signal for better compatibility. So, pure line doubling is one thing that I don't care about--and I can't understand why anyone else would care, either. I didn't mind much when my DVDO added a mere 6ms for video processing and these machines can reduce that to less than 1ms in many cases.

[WobblingPixels]

I guess what I’m saying is that
input & output resolution stored to preset + bmp banner = wi-fi management + descriptive text.

Those things even out in your score. That to me seems a little weird since one offers so much more convenience

My thought process with that rating was not just convenience but the effort & time you could save and how crucial it is to profile management not having access to wifi. Not just with the R4k and OSSC Pro but also Morph 4K users who don't want or can't use wifi.

While switching SD card from scaler to PC takes longer, the renaming process is quicker on PC. Loading a profile on web gui takes a few seconds.
R4k profiles are basically finalized and come pre-configured on an SD card.
Changing input on Morph 4K is done quickly but it happens more often considering it's a fundemental functionality of a scaler and different analog inputs.

Nevertheless I will take a second look on the Morph 4K profiles management. I may adjust the rating and add the info above for better understanding because I just noticed I listed and rated profile management twice: under wifi and profile management.

[e8root]

Using pure line multiplication makes no sense when you can get video processing features with essentially no additional lag. You also get the ability to normalize the output signal for better compatibility. So, pure line doubling is one thing that I don't care about--and I can't understand why anyone else would care, either.

For VGA CRTs? CRTs with native 480p?
IMHO for (S)VGA CRT monitors it still better use modes that have nice CRT filters to get 15KHz look but for square look or scanline look pure line doublers make perfect sense for CRTs and will technically have least latency.

BTW. <1ms means the implementation is optimal.
For SD to HD (or reverse) you get almost 1ms but only on either top or bottom and on the other end lag goes to almost zero.
Also while that is added lag I would say that using pure line multiplying modes might actually result in higher lag on TV depending on how it handles non-standard modes. I would not be too surprised if some engaged scaler and added frame or two lag if not fed standard signal.

[orange808]

For VGA CRTs? CRTs with native 480p?
IMHO for (S)VGA CRT monitors it still better use modes that have nice CRT filters to get 15KHz look but for square look or scanline look pure line doublers make perfect sense for CRTs and will technically have least latency.

Technically, it's less lag. But, we're talking about a ridiculously small amount of time, here.

If we're being super picky, a CRT will always have it's own characteristics and native scanlines. We can try to add a filter on top of that, but it never quite looks the same as a native 15kHz CRT.

Of course, I can add blank lines and filters with an XRGB-1, XRGB-2, OSSC, or one of the new community scalers and get lag that's too small to detect using a Time Sleuth. I could use a line doubler, but I don't have to. I can get filters and blank lines from the other machines with essentially no lag.

The DAC is where people run into problems. The real appeal of the OSSC Pro with a CRT is the DAC expansion card. External DACs are a pain the arse.

I see the advantage of the OSSC Pro for feeding a CRT, but it's because of the DAC card, not the size of the frame buffer or upscaling algorithm.

BTW. <1ms means the implementation is optimal.

Yes. That's one of the main reasons why these community gaming machines exist, no? For optimal performance.

Video gear manufacturers for home, event, and commercial installations made it crystal clear (over the years) that they care very little about latency and gamers.

Customer service has been bad as well. I've heard horror stories about dealing with Extron on the forum (although I had better luck). I wouldn't say I've had negative experiences overall, but I can tell you that gear manufacturers rarely take gaming seriously.

That's how these community machines came to be...

For SD to HD (or reverse) you get almost 1ms but only on either top or bottom and on the other end lag goes to almost zero.

I don't folllow. The information arrives on the wire from the source machine, it is processed by the video processor, and it continues up the wire to the display. What's changing? Are you talking about blanking?

I understand that frame rate can affect lag. For instance, the latency can be reduced if our output frame rate is higher than the input frame rate, because we can get information up the wire to the display fast. For instance, we could use 240Hz output to handle a fully frame buffered 60Hz source. If we have a 60Hz game console source, it takes ~17ms to transmit from the source machine to the video processor and buffer it all. The signal is buffered and processed in ~17ms in this example. The final step is to send the completed frame to the display. If we transmitted at 60Hz, it takes about 17ms to send the frame. At 240Hz, the wire is faster and we send the new frame in ~4ms. (We can repeat the frame afterwards or add BFI.) Regardless, the new frame appears on screen after ~4ms. That means: the video processing penalty for using a full frame buffer with a 60Hz source (for something like deinterlacing or tate rotation) will be ~17ms at the top of your screen and ~21ms at the bottom of your screen: plus any additional lag your display may add (if any at all). Display lag will be extra if you don't have essentially direct scanout. (A 60Hz output would send the information to the display slower and you get ~17ms at the top of the screen and ~34ms at the bottom.)

Native scanout of a 60Hz source connected directly would be ~17ms at the bottom of the screen on a CRT, so the full frame buffer processing adds ~4ms of lag with 240Hz output, because we got ~21ms at the bottom.

I know about that scenerio. I don't follow what you're saying, though. If it's all within a millisecond of variance, I don't care very much (anyhow). That's not enough time to matter for me.

[BuckoA51]

My thought process with that rating was not just convenience but the effort & time you could save and how crucial it is to profile management not having access to wifi. Not just with the R4k and OSSC Pro but also Morph 4K users who don't want or can't use wifi.

While switching SD card from scaler to PC takes longer, the renaming process is quicker on PC. Loading a profile on web gui takes a few seconds.
R4k profiles are basically finalized and come pre-configured on an SD card.
Changing input on Morph 4K is done quickly but it happens more often considering it's a fundemental functionality of a scaler and different analog inputs.

Nevertheless I will take a second look on the Morph 4K profiles management. I may adjust the rating and add the info above for better understanding because I just noticed I listed and rated profile management twice: under wifi and profile management.

I don't understand what you're saying here.. renaming is quicker by removing the SD card and taking it to a PC? How exactly, you simply tap a button on the Morph's web interface and its done. of course you can do it that way on the Morph too, if you want to. Perhaps if you need to work with a lot of profiles at once, is that what you mean?

R4k profiles are basically finalized and come pre-configured on an SD card. - what relevance is that? The Morph can automatically download profiles, the RT4K can't. Are you saying that doesn't matter because nobody is making profiles for RT4K any more?

The web interface is also extremely useful when you're troubleshooting your setup. Lose the picture on the RetroTINK and you have no choice but to reset it. On the OSSC Pro, you can at least navigate the menus by the OLED.

[WobblingPixels]

I don't understand what you're saying here.. renaming is quicker by removing the SD card and taking it to a PC? How exactly, you simply tap a button on the Morph's web interface and its done. of course you can do it that way on the Morph too, if you want to. Perhaps if you need to work with a lot of profiles at once, is that what you mean?

R4k profiles are basically finalized and come pre-configured on an SD card. - what relevance is that? The Morph can automatically download profiles, the RT4K can't. Are you saying that doesn't matter because nobody is making profiles for RT4K any more?

If you click the renaming button it takes 4-5 seconds once a new dialog pops-up, then you rename the profile and confirm the change. The process takes a bit longer than renaming files on a PC. You can't copy files but have to download and upload files as a workaround. There is no workaround to copy/download folders but create new one. There is also no bulk-action to delete or rename profiles/folders at once. You have to do it one by one.
I think these limitations have to be kept in mind despite the convience not to get up from your couch.

The Morph can automatically download profiles, the RT4K can't. Are you saying that doesn't matter because nobody is making profiles for RT4K any more?

I knowledge the feature to update profiles wireless and the benefits when using it with the Morph 4k but that has no meaningfulness about not having it on the R4kCE. That's because of the differences in base aka starting point. One scaler gets shipped without profiles and microsd card. So you have no choice but to configure wifi in order to download and update profiles. The other scaler gets shipped with profiles that are basically finalized saved on the SD card. So there is no need to run any profiles update or put effort into it. It's plug & load.
It's different with firmware updates as both scalers receive updates.

Another important difference with wifi profile updates is not having an option to select which specific profile you would like to update. A common scenario:
Someone adjusts Sampling/scaling and other settings on PS1 analog profiles. If they run a profiles update all changes will be gone even with those profiles that didn't receive any update. The workaround would be to download specific profiles one by one as a backup, run the update and upload the profiles.

The web interface is also extremely useful when you're troubleshooting your setup. Lose the picture on the RetroTINK and you have no choice but to reset it. On the OSSC Pro, you can at least navigate the menus by the OLED.

What do you mean by troubleshooting? Changing input, buffer mode, resolution? Every option has a button on the retrotink remote. Some options can be directly triggered others have to be accessed blindly. I would say that's a limited but still a choice to troubleshoot.
The benefits of the OSSC Pro OLED was mentioned in the review btw. One of the main reasons why I prefer the OSSC Pro design over the other scalers

I honestly don't see how wifi is extremly helpful or very convenient but considering all main WebUi features I would say it's a plus and nice to have feature but not in all use cases. I have restructered the category as "File Management" and updated review score btw.
In the last 10 years scalers didn't require wifi except for GBS-C and I don't remember the retro community demanding for that feature. Perhaps my perspective will change in the future depending what kind of Wifi/WebGUI features PixelFX plans to implement.

[BuckoA51]

You can't copy files but have to download and upload files as a workaround.

You can copy profiles simply by loading the one you want to use, editing it and saving it out again.

I knowledge the feature to update profiles wireless and the benefits when using it with the Morph 4k but that has no meaningfulness about not having it on the R4kCE. That's because of the differences in base aka starting point. One scaler gets shipped without profiles and microsd card. So you have no choice but to configure wifi in order to download and update profiles. The other scaler gets shipped with profiles that are basically finalized saved on the SD card. So there is no need to run any profiles update or put effort into it. It's plug & load.

So because the RT4k ships with profiles on an SD card, it never needs to update profiles? No new profiles ever come out? No old profiles are ever updated to take advantage of new features?

Another important difference with wifi profile updates is not having an option to select which specific profile you would like to update. A common scenario:
Someone adjusts Sampling/scaling and other settings on PS1 analog profiles. If they run a profiles update all changes will be gone even with those profiles that didn't receive any update. The workaround would be to download specific profiles one by one as a backup, run the update and upload the profiles.

Um no, if you modify the profile you save a copy of it. Downloading profile pack only updates/overwrites the base profiles. How does this not apply to manually downloading profiles on a PC (which, again, you can do on the Morph if you want to). if you update/modify a profile on your RT4K, and someone updates it for the RetroTINK master profile pack, you have to download the profile again and your changes are obviously undone.

Look, you're entitled to your opinion and obviously neither of us is neutral here, I'm just going to leave it at that I think.

[WobblingPixels]

You can copy profiles simply by loading the one you want to use, editing it and saving it out again.

Right, that would also work as workaround but it still requires more effort and time than just copy or bulk-copy 10 profile files for example.

So because the RT4k ships with profiles on an SD card, it never needs to update profiles? No new profiles ever come out? No old profiles are ever updated to take advantage of new features?

Granted, but I would expect them to be happen rarerly (maybe once a year?!) The last update is almost 4 months ago.
While changing input happens more often as it's a fundemental feature of a scaler.

Um no, if you modify the profile you save a copy of it. Downloading profile pack only updates/overwrites the base profiles. How does this not apply to manually downloading profiles on a PC (which, again, you can do on the Morph if you want to). if you update/modify a profile on your RT4K, and someone updates it for the RetroTINK master profile pack, you have to download the profile again and your changes are obviously undone.

I think you are referring to a different scenario.
Let's say I have 20x profiles modified by me (from the profiles pack) and I plan to run a profiles update but I don't want these profiles to be overwritten because they didn't receive any changes by the profile creator.

Morph 4K via Wifi:
Option 1: I have to load every profile one by one, change the name and save as new in order to create a backup.
Option 2: Download the profile one by one. Upload the profile one by one after the update.

There is no option to exclude profiles I don't want to be updated without applying the two workarounds which costs more time and effort compared to:

Retrotink 4K CE sdcard using access via PC:
Option 1:
Select the 20 profiles and copy all to your backup folder.
Copy all profile files from the zip file to SD card first and then the 20 profiles
Option 2: Just copy all files/folders from the zip file except for the 20 profiles.
Yes, same can be done on the Morph 4k but not via wifi. That's one limitation I think some overlook.

tbh it doesn't really matter at this point as I added couple of changes to that category in my review.

Look, you're entitled to your opinion and obviously neither of us is neutral here, I'm just going to leave it at that I think

I disagree and will only speak for myself. I always try to present things as they are and have no problem to correct myself. For me this is just a hobby without having skin in the game.

[FBX]

Look, you're entitled to your opinion and obviously neither of us is neutral here, I'm just going to leave it at that I think.

Which is INCREDIBLY unprofessional for a vendor. I'm also getting sick an tired of objective facts being spun as some sort of 'bias'. The truth isn't a bias no matter what mental gymnastics you try to pull in your mind.

[Konsolkongen]

I honestly don't see how wifi is extremly helpful or very convenient but considering all main WebUi features I would say it's a plus and nice to have feature but not in all use cases. I have restructered the category as "File Management" and updated review score btw.
In the last 10 years scalers didn't require wifi except for GBS-C and I don't remember the retro community demanding for that feature. Perhaps my perspective will change in the future depending what kind of Wifi/WebGUI features PixelFX plans to implement.

I thought the same before buying the Morph. I didn't really see the point. I still prefer to use a physical remote for control, but having the option to access the WebUI for the reasons BuckoA51 mentions, as well as the API stuff like GameID over ethernet, is such a great feature. I wouldn't want to manage the SD card by inserting it into my PC, it's too much of a hassle for me with them being in separate rooms.

[orange808]

While more expensive, I'd like to have physical knobs (and buttons) like Extron uses and a screen on future scalers. Physical knobs often make dialing things in easier. I can stand back, look at my output display, and turn the knob without any thought.

I don't have to locate any buttons or point the remote to any sensor. My attention is on the test pattern and the screen, because turning a knob is unconscious and natural. Making coarse versus fine adjustments to a setting is also intuitive. Turning a knob fast or slow just makes sense and feels natural.