Ways to make shmups more appealing to existing fans.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:05 pm

I was thinking of this thread idea before the other one, but it is timely. I've been a little bored with new releases and I think developers are in need of inspiration right now.

Looking back:

What elements or ideas in 80s/early 90s shooters can be salvaged/further explored? It seems like too much has been ignored... there has to something good there (I'm having a hard time thinking of what, help).

Looking forward:

I remember a thread for new ideas, but that was maybe on the older board? Time for a new new ideas. New ideas without turning shooters into non-challenging games or this thread into the other one. Scoring systems, whatever.

-My personal favorite not explored enough idea is arena shooters, like Cannon Spike. Different enough to sometimes not be considered a shooter, but feels like one and feels more freeform. Add to a confined arena walls and environment obstacles you can hide behind and move around... I'm sure some unique scoring systems can be added to this as well as making all of the horrible aspects of Cannon Spike go away. In general multi-directional shooters (Forgotten Worlds, ZG2) haven't been explored enough.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:41 pm

Multiple weapons and different scoring systems. Say, you have a piercing-like cannon and you get multipliers, normal shooting will trigger chains, etc.

Rank system that punches the player in the face if he even dares to say something about ranking, let alone against.

Gradius with chains ( chain the whole stage with the fourth option!). Actually, Gradius with a scoring system, that would be *rad*.

Some way to do a decent Rotato (i.e. Forgotten worlds but also Time Soldier, the Ikari Game), or any scoring system transposed to an Arena shooter (Twiddle knows of an excellent doujin in this vein).

Shmups that start only if you're not a douche-bag obsessed with "2D" but then you never play a shmup and just damage other people's life with your rampant OCD.

MARS MATRIX 2.

That would be the objective pinnacle of originality, of course!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:50 pm

Randorama wrote:Multiple weapons and different scoring systems. Say, you have a piercing-like cannon and you get multipliers, normal shooting will trigger chains, etc.

I like all of these ideas a lot, but especially this one.

Speaking of Gradius. I'm playing some Genesis games out of complete boredom and I think Gradius V took everything that was good about them. There's nothing to find here. More of that would be good.

There should be more environment obstacles in these vertical shooters. Not on every stage, but wasn't 3-1 in Shikigami 2 nice? I think it was 3-1.

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:06 pm

A carefully designed co-op mode where players share score.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:27 pm

I just need another Twinbee.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:32 pm

Turrican wrote:I just need another Twinbee.

fans

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:55 pm

I'm kind of liking the idea of people using their own lives to score higher -- i.e. killing themselves for more points by bombing or keeping rank low enough to be able to milk grazing or other scoring mechanics effectively (both tactics seen in the first stage of DAB's Raiden Fighters replay).

Problem is, most people in this forum don't like this.

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:08 am

Twiddle wrote:I'm kind of liking the idea of people using their own lives to score higher -- i.e. killing themselves for more points by bombing or keeping rank low enough to be able to milk grazing or other scoring mechanics effectively (both tactics seen in the first stage of DAB's Raiden Fighters replay).

Problem is, most people in this forum don't like this.

Not to start that argument again, but its because it goes against "a player's natural sensibilities". Why players won't be more open to the tools they have at their disposal is an unsolved mystery on this forum.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:11 am

Rob wrote:
Turrican wrote:I just need another Twinbee.
fans

Players, even (bordering on utopia!!1!).

Personally i'd like to see other things as weapon-stealing, rotato games, Well-done arena shooters, etc. As an exercise, programmers could take an early '90s shmup and put a score engine in it. I think it would a definite breath of freash air.

An alternative is checking which shmups aren't particularly good (Sengeki Strikers) and do them properly (i.e. re-design the levels so the score engine is not poorly implemented).

And Mars Matrix 2.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:20 am

Icarus wrote:[

Not to start that argument again, but its because it goes against "a player's natural sensibilities". Why players won't be more open to the tools they have at their disposal is an unsolved mystery on this forum.

Who plays shmups on this forum? Who bitches about the lack of endless rank-less clones? Who pretends to be l33t because he's stuck to 2d? Mistery solved!

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:53 am

Randorama wrote:Gradius with chains ( chain the whole stage with the fourth option!). Actually, Gradius with a scoring system, that would be *rad*.

You mean one that isn't built around mutiple-suicides + check-points + multiple extends ... + more loops than are necessary?

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:55 am

zinger wrote:A carefully designed co-op mode where players share score.

I'd love another Giga Wing 2... especially with that 4-player insanity mode.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:55 am

Yeah, a true scoring system, definitely!

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:59 am

Rob wrote:I'm sure some unique scoring systems can be added to this as well as making all of the horrible aspects of Cannon Spike go away.

What's up with all the Cannon/Gun Spike hate?

JBC · Post by **JBC** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:21 am

The only real problem i had with Cannon Spike was that there just wasn't enough to it. It was way too short and honestly - way too easy.

On the other hand - it was an AWESOME idea. I liked the alternate future/mix match of Capcom characters idea plus the fact that it was an arena shmup, an excellent genre we don't see enough of.

I ended up being damn done with that game though and eventually passed it on to a friend. When all was said and done i didn't feel like i had really gotten my money's worth.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:25 am

they should make a game where is you have to chain enemies ddp and rsg style at the same time and also medal chain and if you drop either of your chains you just die

also there is rank

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:26 am

Kiken wrote:
Rob wrote:I'm sure some unique scoring systems can be added to this as well as making all of the horrible aspects of Cannon Spike go away.
What's up with all the Cannon/Gun Spike hate?

I don't hate it. It's mostly good, but could be a lot better. Bad: control set-up (multiple buttons held down at once), punching bag enemies.

Dandy J wrote:they should make a game where is you have to chain enemies ..

Worst game ever.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:12 am

Get rid of region codes so we don't have to use modchips or JPN region consoles.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:15 am

FatCobra wrote:Get rid of region codes so we don't have to use modchips or JPN region consoles.

Amen.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:26 am

Randorama wrote:Rank system that punches the player in the face if he even dares to say something about ranking, let alone against.

Who needs a game when you've already got the real thing?

As for the topic at hand, maybe I'm just too easy to please, but I'm pretty interested in trying out most of the recently-released stuff, without pining too much for "something more"...my main problem is not having enough money or time to do so to all of them, heh heh.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:35 am

Another game madey by Hiroshi Iuchi. <3

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:35 am

BulletMagnet wrote: As for the topic at hand, maybe I'm just too easy to please, but I'm pretty interested in trying out most of the recently-released stuff, without pining too much for "something more"...

Seems so! I feel like I know exactly what the new releases will be like before I play them (OK if it's Giga Wing). For example, I'm not really sure I want to play a new Shikigami (even though I enjoyed the first two - how much Shikigami does one person need?).

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:50 am

Heh, maybe part of the discrepancy is that you (at least from what I've glimpsed) have actually played most of the resent releases, while I still haven't tried Homura, Trizeal, Radirgy, Raiden III, Under Defeat, and probably a few other recent things I'm forgetting...maybe if I tried them I'd feel more like you do, but for now they're still just kind of waiting for me, so I still have stuff to (hopefully) look forward to trying eventually. Then again, I've already got more stuff to play than I know what to do with as it is, so even if the new stuff isn't my thing I have plenty to fall back on.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:17 am

Boobs.

Thank you, Cave.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:19 am

circuitface wrote:The only real problem i had with Cannon Spike was that there just wasn't enough to it. It was way too short and honestly - way too easy.

Too short? 10 levels x 2 loops = 20 stages. It takes 13 minutes to complete a loop (which is pretty close to most Psikyo shmups), so you're looking at a total of 26 minutes. Personally, I feel that the 25-30 minute range for a full-clear of a shmup (without heavy milking) is ideal.

And too easy? So I assume you can No Miss double loop it in your sleep then.

Rob wrote: I don't hate it. It's mostly good, but could be a lot better. Bad: control set-up (multiple buttons held down at once), punching bag enemies.

I've never had any issues with the console controls. Holding down one or two buttons while tapping a third really isn't that difficult. You really only need to rely on Shot, Hyper Shot and Lock (with occasional bomb use). I think the default arcade 3-button set-up would be annoying... but seeing as how the Japanese love rigging up additional microswitches, I see no problems using the 6-button layout.

As for the punching bag enemies, given the arena format, they're a bit more suitable than lemmings/feeder-fish/popcorn. The idea is to constantly stay mobile and coral them.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:20 am

iatneH wrote:Boobs.

Thank you, Cave.

Psikyo and Capcom gave you Morrigan in GB2... and they actually had to redraw her sprite!

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:26 am

Meh. Morrigan's assets are over-exaggerated. Give me a more natural-looking girl any day.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:27 am

For all the (mostly deserved) flack Cave gets for its copious fanservice of late, methinks Psikyo still holds the crown for that one overall, heh heh. And that's not even counting the mahjongg games...

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:38 am

Hey I'm being serious...

<3 Kasumi Rose

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:49 am

I really need to play Gunbird 2 again.

shmups.system11.org

Ways to make shmups more appealing to existing fans.

Ways to make shmups more appealing to existing fans.

Re: Ways to make shmups more appealing to existing fans.

Re: Ways to make shmups more appealing to existing fans.