Struggling to connect with Crimzon Clover

[EMPTYDISCO]

I need help understanding the appeal of Crimzon Clover because I feel like there is something amazing here, but I'm struggling to connect to it.

I think my biggest barrier to embracing it is the visuals. An analogy if I may...Its almost feels like the results often seen when someone consumes massive amounts of adult content and can no longer be stimulated by regular visuals, then find themselves watching people wearing toilet seats around their neck and getting punched in the face and degraded by any means possible.

What I mean to say is...the the reward splash of stars and explosions on screen feels like it was designed by and for people who have maxed out their ADD rank, and then blew out their dopamine receptors to the point of responding only to incomprehensible levels of visual reward feedback.

Believe me I am all for mechanics first in a game, but I want to see the game as well. I feel like there is a game could really like under here, but I can't get past the feeling that I have my face pressed up against a strobe light and have no idea what I'm even doing or attacking most of the time.

Aside from gameplay coming first, it does seem a shame that you almost never get to see the visuals just to appreciate them alongside the gameplay. I can't even comprehend going the lengths they did to create all that beautiful art you barely catch glimpses of, then design visual effects that ensures you almost never see 90% of it.

Apologies if this just sounds like complaining, but I have to a bit to be clear about my hang ups for this title. So...

Can anyone lend some perspective about how I am viewing what I see on screen that could help alter my perceptions of it? Anyone experience this as well and then something you discovered finally made it click into place?

Are any of you a fan of all the mechanics and their implementation on paper but also not able to get past the visual whiplash?

[dethcow]

some things are impossible to explain
you can't "explain" to someone why mozart's music "sounds good" if they don't like it
i think crimzon clover's feedback is the gold standard for "feels satisfying when i destroy things". yes, i have severe adhd and prefer extreme visual stimulation/feedback at all times (which is why i am drawn to "pure action genres" like shmups/beat em ups/rhythm games), but i'd wager that's a common thing in this community.
in my own opinion, a shmup that "lets you take in the visuals" just translates to "this shmup has a ton of dead air and is extremely boring". maybe on a first or third or 5th play, it's not so bad, but for a genre where i expect to be replaying the same few stages hundreds of times, miss me with that shit fam, as the kids say.

and yes, a lifetime of "action gaming" means i need the hard shit injected directly into my neck. no cutscenes, no unlocks, no "beat the game on the lower difficulty before unlocking the real game", nothing that holds back the fun. give me all the fun at a maximum level at all times or fuck off and stop wasting my time

[Steven]

feels like it was designed by and for people who have maxed out their ADD rank, and then blew out their dopamine receptors to the point of responding only to incomprehensible levels of visual reward feedback.

This is quite honestly how I feel about all bullet hell in general.

I can't help you, though. I don't even pay attention to this game's medal vomit. I never really noticed it until someone pointed it out. Just consider it to be part of the game's background. It's all pre-rendered anyway so none of it actually looks good. It's too bad it looks like this instead of hand-drawn 2D sprites. Imagine how awesome (and better) this game would look if it looked more like Garegga or Raiden DX instead. Then I'd be complaining about the medals getting in the way.

[Faith]

i think crimzon clover's feedback is the gold standard for "feels satisfying when i destroy things".

This. lol. If you think CC is busy, be glad you are not crazy like me playing Unlimited @_@"...



Normally, you can see your ship still but I took hit at the moment of that capture. Crimzon Clover has crazy good visual clarity, one of the best of any STG. That is what makes it so great!

I have since cleared this mode many many dozen times, and still play this game every day!~

To try and answer your question a bit: I had not played STG's for many many years when I stopped playing long time ago. I only started to play again about middle last year, and Crimzon Clover only about 8-9 months after that. So, I can say with confidence that... I am not the person that you describe when you say Crimzon Clover "feels like it was designed by and for people who have maxed out their ADD rank." I did say before in my review of Crimzon Clover that... this kind of style, is not for everyone. But for me... it is addiction. But you need to understand why.

A big part of it is how difficult this game is. If you look just at Arcade Original leaderboards, how many people have clear? Look at Arcade Unlimited... and it is a fraction of that. I took over 200 hours to clear Arcade Unlimited first time. Even now, I only clear it about every 1 in 5-10 attempts. This is important. Why?

Because: if you always fail, then where do you find the morale... the reward. Where do you find the will... to keep trying?

This is how. Every time, I enter Double Break... every time, the screen explodes with 100's of stars... dozen's of big green "x12.8" Multipliers and even huge "x51925" popups of your Break Rate when you kill enemies... all of this... these are rewards at the moment to tell you: you did great. Even if you die moments later. Even if you fail... you still did great.

In a game that is this difficult, this brutal... this is critical. To feel that reward, those awesome explosions (both in audio visual)... it is the drive I needed to win.

Also, a bit of history: Crimzon Clover is made by one of the best STG superplayers in the world. His name, Clover-TAC... where "clover" means "cave lover." Crimzon Clover has a lot of influence and inspiration from Cave games. If you think Crimzon Clover is busy, look at expert mode play of for example Daifukkatsu Black Label. It is similar.

So when you ask, what are you seeing? This is what you are seeing. You are seeing the game give you very important and very valuable feedback on your performance. Many times, I don't have time to look at my score, or look at my Multiplier or Break Rate... but when I see the screen like this, I know, everything is good. And finally: all these "casino candy visuals" like some people describe... they do not stop you from seeing the game. Crimzon Clover is the benchmark for how these visuals do not impede gameplay or the beautify of the environment of the game.

I have said this before: Crimzon Clover is the ultimate #1 arcade experience outside arcade!~

Sometimes... some things... take a while to understand on your own. And some things... are just not for some people. But, I type all this just to tell you that: for me anyway, Crimzon Clover is the best STG you will find on Steam. Perhaps even PC overall. Its core gameplay is extremely pure. Extremely direct. Everything, and I really mean, every single piece of detail (enemy spawn, location, so on)... is the way it is because it was very precisely thought out and intended to be that way by the developer. And because of that, the skill ceiling for this game... is truly crazy!~

Now: my hubby hates seeing me play this game and always complains it is hard to watch me play because of how busy it is, hahaha. So, definitely, it is not for everyone. Yes, there are harder STG without all this feedback... and those, often, like Ikaruga... are just not for me.

Because we are all different <3

[Faith]

Aside from gameplay coming first, it does seem a shame that you almost never get to see the visuals just to appreciate them alongside the gameplay. I can't even comprehend going the lengths they did to create all that beautiful art you barely catch glimpses of, then design visual effects that ensures you almost never see 90% of it.

Also just want to add that, this part, not very true @_@"...

There is plenty of time, even in Unlimited, to go "sight seeing" and to appreciate the beautiful graphics in this game!

[XoPachi]

I'm severely colorblind to the point it affects my work but Crimzon Clover has a lot of intelligent constraints amidst it's visual chaos that keep it legible. The same design that similar games use to help parse what's happening. I'm failing to understand this idea that games like Crimzon Clover are a dead end of the genre for crackheads and not just...a different style. The people who love it don't suddenly lose love for less extreme games like Gradius or Gallop.

[EMPTYDISCO]

i think crimzon clover's feedback is the gold standard for "feels satisfying when i destroy things".

This. lol. If you think CC is busy, be glad you are not crazy like me playing Unlimited @_@"...



Normally, you can see your ship still but I took hit at the moment of that capture. Crimzon Clover has crazy good visual clarity, one of the best of any STG. That is what makes it so great!

I have since cleared this mode many many dozen times, and still play this game every day!~

To try and answer your question a bit: I had not played STG's for many many years when I stopped playing long time ago. I only started to play again about middle last year, and Crimzon Clover only about 8-9 months after that. So, I can say with confidence that... I am not the person that you describe when you say Crimzon Clover "feels like it was designed by and for people who have maxed out their ADD rank." I did say before in my review of Crimzon Clover that... this kind of style, is not for everyone. But for me... it is addiction. But you need to understand why.

A big part of it is how difficult this game is. If you look just at Arcade Original leaderboards, how many people have clear? Look at Arcade Unlimited... and it is a fraction of that. I took over 200 hours to clear Arcade Unlimited first time. Even now, I only clear it about every 1 in 5-10 attempts. This is important. Why?

Because: if you always fail, then where do you find the morale... the reward. Where do you find the will... to keep trying?

This is how. Every time, I enter Double Break... every time, the screen explodes with 100's of stars... dozen's of big green "x12.8" Multipliers and even huge "x51925" popups of your Break Rate when you kill enemies... all of this... these are rewards at the moment to tell you: you did great. Even if you die moments later. Even if you fail... you still did great.

In a game that is this difficult, this brutal... this is critical. To feel that reward, those awesome explosions (both in audio visual)... it is the drive I needed to win.

Also, a bit of history: Crimzon Clover is made by one of the best STG superplayers in the world. His name, Clover-TAC... where "clover" means "cave lover." Crimzon Clover has a lot of influence and inspiration from Cave games. If you think Crimzon Clover is busy, look at expert mode play of for example Daifukkatsu Black Label. It is similar.

So when you ask, what are you seeing? This is what you are seeing. You are seeing the game give you very important and very valuable feedback on your performance. Many times, I don't have time to look at my score, or look at my Multiplier or Break Rate... but when I see the screen like this, I know, everything is good. And finally: all these "casino candy visuals" like some people describe... they do not stop you from seeing the game. Crimzon Clover is the benchmark for how these visuals do not impede gameplay or the beautify of the environment of the game.

I have said this before: Crimzon Clover is the ultimate #1 arcade experience outside arcade!~

Sometimes... some things... take a while to understand on your own. And some things... are just not for some people. But, I type all this just to tell you that: for me anyway, Crimzon Clover is the best STG you will find on Steam. Perhaps even PC overall. Its core gameplay is extremely pure. Extremely direct. Everything, and I really mean, every single piece of detail (enemy spawn, location, so on)... is the way it is because it was very precisely thought out and intended to be that way by the developer. And because of that, the skill ceiling for this game... is truly crazy!~

Now: my hubby hates seeing me play this game and always complains it is hard to watch me play because of how busy it is, hahaha. So, definitely, it is not for everyone. Yes, there are harder STG without all this feedback... and those, often, like Ikaruga... are just not for me.

Because we are all different <3

Faith, thank you so much for this reply. This is what I was looking for. You gave me some great perspective on why you like the game and insights to its visuals, instead of complaining back to me about my own struggles to understand the game or assuming that I don't play other hardcore action/arcade/bullet hell games.

You inspired me to keep trying and view the visuals as critical information rather than sensory overload.

[To Far Away Times]

I think what drew me to Crimzon Clover was the cracked out visuals. It’s like a slot machine going off except you control when you win.

I certainly wouldn’t want every game to be like this, but damn if it didn’t put a smile one my face the first time I went into Double Break mode.

[qmish]

A big part of it is how difficult this game is. If you look just at Arcade Original leaderboards, how many people have clear? Look at Arcade Unlimited... and it is a fraction of that. I took over 200 hours to clear Arcade Unlimited first time. Even now, I only clear it about every 1 in 5-10 attempts. This is important. Why?

Because: if you always fail, then where do you find the morale... the reward. Where do you find the will... to keep trying?

This is how. Every time, I enter Double Break... every time, the screen explodes with 100's of stars... dozen's of big green "x12.8" Multipliers and even huge "x51925" popups of your Break Rate when you kill enemies... all of this... these are rewards at the moment to tell you: you did great. Even if you die moments later. Even if you fail... you still did great.

In a game that is this difficult, this brutal... this is critical. To feel that reward, those awesome explosions (both in audio visual)... it is the drive I needed to win.

Also, a bit of history: Crimzon Clover is made by one of the best STG superplayers in the world. His name, Clover-TAC... where "clover" means "cave lover." Crimzon Clover has a lot of influence and inspiration from Cave games. If you think Crimzon Clover is busy, look at expert mode play of for example Daifukkatsu Black Label. It is similar.

So when you ask, what are you seeing? This is what you are seeing. You are seeing the game give you very important and very valuable feedback on your performance. Many times, I don't have time to look at my score, or look at my Multiplier or Break Rate... but when I see the screen like this, I know, everything is good. And finally: all these "casino candy visuals" like some people describe... they do not stop you from seeing the game. Crimzon Clover is the benchmark for how these visuals do not impede gameplay or the beautify of the environment of the game.

I have said this before: Crimzon Clover is the ultimate #1 arcade experience outside arcade!~

Just wanted to thank you for this poetry.

The people who love it don't suddenly lose love for less extreme games like Gradius or Gallop.

Also agreed.

[Faith]

Thank you for your kind words >.<!~

Would love to reply more... but now... I am shaking so much... I just managed the impossible... Arcade Unlimited No-Miss. Posted in 1CC thread >.<!~

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I think my biggest barrier to embracing it is the visuals.

You're not alone; it's the kind of game where you love it or hate it aesthetically. The visuals are completely nuts, especially in the remakes where they add even more to the overall flashyness of the interface. That's part of its appeal but it's also not going to be everyone's cup of tea. It's okay not to click with a game if it doesn't appeal with you aesthetically, it doesn't necessarily make it a bad game, nor does it make you a bad gamer if the aesthetics don't do it for you compared to a more visually restrained kind of game. I enjoy it, but it's definitely a bit much for me at times, so I don't play it as frequently as other shmups.

It's also an insanely hard game in terms of resource management (World Ignition especially, you get a lot more extends in the original doujin release). Faith's Arcade Unlimited no miss clear is very, very nuts (congrats!).

If you want something with similar gameplay but that isn't quite as intense visually, consider picking up Rolling Gunner. It's built around a 2-stage hyper system but you can bomb at any time to exit the hyper, even the much riskier and aggressive second hyper.

[Weak Boson]

As said above, you're entitled to your own preferences and just because it's a game that works for others doesn't mean you have to force yourself to like it.

The way I see it the rationale for the point item shower aesthetics are to give the player strong feedback on scoring. It really feels like you're cashing in big every time you double break and it feels great whether you already care about score or are just trying to grab enough stars to get the next 1up. There are shmups out there which struggle to provide feedback to the player about when they are scoring big, aside from a number in the corner of the screen going up. One example of this I think is DDP DFK which, despite having a lot of visual spectacle and big numbers, is actually pretty understated while you're cashing in your multiplier without hypering. I think getting into scoring is a lot less intuitive for new players in that game for this reason.

But it's a fair point to say that the aesthetics have pros as well as cons. Visual clarity isn't a problem I had in CC but I can understand a player preferring games which make it a priority function. It's a criticism people level at bullet hell games in general, and for those people the pretty patterns just aren't worth it, never mind gold fountains of point items. Another consideration might be that if you want a more atmospheric experience then non diegetic point items constantly clattering around is going to break your immersion in the world of the game. Few shmups escape this completely, but I think part of the reason the Touhou games are so popular is that they deliver on this to some extent, with boss's attacks being themed around their characters, whose presence in the game is explained by the story. (I just watched some insane Damaku Festival replays)

I'd disagree strongly with anyone who says CC isn't a well crafted game, but everyone should cultivate their own taste, and discerning taste acknowledges strengths even when they are not outweighed by weaknesses.

[AGermanArtist]

Crimzon Clover is the post-Cave benchmark for arcade 'bullet hell' (I fucking hate that term) Shmups. It's where your game needs to be, if you're going to make a new game in this genre. It's amazing. It admittedly does lack a little refinement/polish, but mechanically it's right there.
You've got to ping all the receptors at least as well as it does, and nothing I've played since does.

[davyK]

When it clicks it does feel like a Cave game. It's hard to describe - feels like a tidal force of back and forth - like a repeating build up and cash-in . It's extremely satisfying even to a scrub player like me. Can't imagine how hard it must be to tweak a game until it feels like that.

First game I got that feeling with was Futari- switching between shot and laser and picking up the cancels with gems with the right shot type and the slowdown was soooooo satisfying. That icicle level is like a relaxation technique.

[dethcow]

feels like it was designed by and for people who have maxed out their ADD rank, and then blew out their dopamine receptors to the point of responding only to incomprehensible levels of visual reward feedback.

Imagine how awesome (and better) this game would look if it looked more like Garegga or Raiden DX instead.

I know what you're saying in terms of how those games look (I think Darius Gaiden is the best-looking shmup ever made, and maybe one of my favorite-looking games period), BUT I think Garegga specifically is a rather unfortunate choice here because the actual playing of Garegga has some of the worst visibility issues of any shmup ever, which is made crystal clear once you play the M2 Garegga port with purple bullets. (I paid my dues with Garegga 1ccs on Saturn so I've earned the right to talk about how dogshit its visibility is! :^) ) This is in stark contrast with Crimzon Clover, where I have never felt like a death was due to me not being able to see what was going on on the screen.

The way I see it the rationale for the point item shower aesthetics are to give the player strong feedback on scoring. It really feels like you're cashing in big every time you double break and it feels great whether you already care about score or are just trying to grab enough stars to get the next 1up. There are shmups out there which struggle to provide feedback to the player about when they are scoring big, aside from a number in the corner of the screen going up. One example of this I think is DDP DFK which, despite having a lot of visual spectacle and big numbers, is actually pretty understated while you're cashing in your multiplier without hypering. I think getting into scoring is a lot less intuitive for new players in that game for this reason.

IMO the only Cave game that does scoring feedback better than Crimzon Clover is Progear. There is something absolutely sublime about getting a massive chain reaction cancel in Progear and sucking in all those diamonds that is pretty much perfection for me.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Does Clover-TAC have any plans to release a proper sequel to Crimson Clover? I know it was released in the Japanese game centers under the "Crimson Clover Nesica" setup as an arcade stg.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Steven]

feels like it was designed by and for people who have maxed out their ADD rank, and then blew out their dopamine receptors to the point of responding only to incomprehensible levels of visual reward feedback.

Imagine how awesome (and better) this game would look if it looked more like Garegga or Raiden DX instead.

I know what you're saying in terms of how those games look (I think Darius Gaiden is the best-looking shmup ever made, and maybe one of my favorite-looking games period), BUT I think Garegga specifically is a rather unfortunate choice here because the actual playing of Garegga has some of the worst visibility issues of any shmup ever, which is made crystal clear once you play the M2 Garegga port with purple bullets. (I paid my dues with Garegga 1ccs on Saturn so I've earned the right to talk about how dogshit its visibility is! :^) ) This is in stark contrast with Crimzon Clover, where I have never felt like a death was due to me not being able to see what was going on on the screen.

Eh Garegga's fine. Raiden DX is the problematic one. Can't see shit in that game. Like everything else, it's probably way better on a smaller monitor, like 20 inches maximum, and not the 29 inch I'm playing it on.

[Faith]

Does Clover-TAC have any plans to release a proper sequel to Crimson Clover? I know it was released in the Japanese game centers under the "Crimson Clover Nesica" setup as an arcade stg.

The arcade NESiCAxLive release is what became World Ignition & World EXplosion!~

But World EXplosion there is that Arrange mode too (I don't think NESiCAxLive ever got Arrange)... so these are the most natural sequel from the first doujin release!~

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Does Clover-TAC have any plans to release a proper sequel to Crimson Clover? I know it was released in the Japanese game centers under the "Crimson Clover Nesica" setup as an arcade stg.

The arcade NESiCAxLive release is what became World Ignition & World EXplosion!~

But World EXplosion there is that Arrange mode too (I don't think NESiCAxLive ever got Arrange)... so these are the most natural sequel from the first doujin release!~

For Faith,

Thank you for the 411 on the Crimson Clover World Ignition/World EXplosion releases being the natural sequel to the original doujin CD-Rom release.

----------
On the Nintendo Switch port of Crimson Clover World EXplosion, it does support both 16:9 and 4:3 aspect ratio screen setups:

For the 4:3 screen aspect ratio, the ideal screen settings would be set to the following --

Rotation: Vertical

Stretch X: 100.0%

Stretch Y: 136.1%

Move X: 0

Move Y: 27

Scaling: Bilinear

The above settings will look distorted on the 16:9 Switch LCD & Oled screen setups but will display correctly with a 4:3 based LCD monitor setup as intended. Enjoy!
----------

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[FRO]

Just to briefly echo some of what's been said, I think it's a situation where either you enjoy or can handle the visual "barf" that Crimzon Clover pushes at you...or you can't. I happen to enjoy it, and I think the visual design of the game is well balanced enough that proper enemy bullet priority is generally still in play during Break and Double Break usage so you're not caught unawares of an enemy attack, but it's definitely busier than the average shooter. On the CAVE side I suspect DFK and SDOJ are the closest analogs to how visually noisy CC is or can be. I don't know that I can help you to get on with it, other than to say that playing repeatedly and purposely using the Break and Double Break to help you get used to the amount of visual noise so you can learn to ignore some of the feedback that's less important and hone in on those components that matter, like other enemy bullets, screen positioning, your hitbox, etc.