Ways to make shmups appeal to mainstreamers again

[FatCobra]

What would it take for shmups to be popular to the mainstream gaming public (MGP for short)?

Here's my ways:

Add a super-easy difficulty level and allow credit-feeding, but make the game insult the gamer if they beat it this way.

Lots of unlockables. Mainstreamers love unlockables.

Add a complex storyline. They'll play anything with long cutscences in it. (Real gamers can skip them, however).

Feel free to add your own suggestions; serious or sarcastic.

[Icarus]

An 'Easy Mode' option that cuts the power to the PS2 just before score entry, and on reboot, the PS2 tells the player to go play on Normal if they want to save their scores.

[howmuchkeefe]

Those sound good.

I've had people roll their eyes at DOJ's graphics, yet these people liked how R Type Final and Gradius V looked... so, I guess this shmup should be heavy on the hi res pretty, too.

[howmuchkeefe]

Also: Customization options! I liked playing dress up with CJ, I like playing dress up with my Oblivion characters, and I liked coloring my ships in RTF.

[No_not_like_Quake]

Easy, whip this maintreamer with a bycle chain...what, no Devil Man fans here?

[Daigohji]

Tony Hawk's Vertically Scrolling Wasteland

[FRO]

Add a super-easy difficulty level and allow credit-feeding, but make the game insult the gamer if they beat it this way.

I'm not sure about insulting them - perhaps giving them a cheesy ending & something like "You can do better!" You know, something that will motivate them (rather than shame them) into trying a harder difficulty level.

Lots of unlockables. Mainstreamers love unlockables.

I agree. R-Type Final, though I just recently purchased it, is rife w/ unlockables, & I find that cool, as well as the ship customization (green ship w/ yellow window, anyone?). I'd say any additional cinemas, series or game history, playable demos or things like that, or perhaps entire other old-school games. For example, it would have been nice that since R-Type Leo never got a proper console release that Irem should have included that as an unlockable in R-Type Final, similar to what Konami did w/ the more recent TMNT games on Gamecube (including the arcade originals).

Add a complex storyline. They'll play anything with long cutscences in it. (Real gamers can skip them, however).

Yes. Again referencing R-Type Final, the before-stage intros are nice, but sometimes you want to skip them. I think one of the reasons Philosoma isn't considered a total flop (disjointed gameplay notwithstanding) is the fact that its cinemas are beautiful & well done, & the story behind it adds something to the game, despite its flaws. The same could be applied to newer shmups - a game like Shiki 2 can be fun because of the awful dialogue & voice acting, regardless of the gameplay (which is good anyway).

[howmuchkeefe]

Hell yeah! A score attack mode (balanced, color edits allowed, no weapon edits, designed for "hard core" shmuppers), a puzzle shooter type mode w/online and split screen capability, and a campaign mode (relatively easy, save-enabled checkpoints during missions, earn credits, buy ships/crap for ships).

EDIT: ...and it should be called Dangun Feveron II

EDITII: yes. YES! Trance stages! Planets of Funk! Hair Metal aliens! Galactic Hip Hop Confederacies!

[CMoon]

Why bother with 'super easy'? Instead, world tour model (alpha 3 style) let's you 'build up' a super powerful ship that makes the game super easy. It should take hours to complete all the little mini-games however.

Or something like RSG where you can keep leveling your ship and saving it.

Each boss, if you can beat it with no continues, should release a weapon upgrade that you can save!

On-demand tasks (ala Trizeal) that release upgrades/unlockables.

A deep, customizable game engine that may completely destroy the balance of the game but will make gamers feel like they've experienced hundreds of hours of gameplay.

Unlockables should be purchased ala Capcom vs. SNK2, but of course it requires dozens of hours of play to unlock all these things. (ironically, Mars Matrix did a pretty good job at this...)

An after-game that can only be completed after 1cc'ing the game, with the intention of forcing all but the skilled players to actually use the unlockables and 'world tour' mode to build up a monster ship.

After you complete the after-game, the game reveals that something else (a better after-game?) can be obtained by 1cc'ing with a default ship. Each successive after-game prompts you to 1cc at a higher difficulty level for something even better.

This is how you work 'em...

[Dave_K.]

Create an involving story line, with tons of CGI rendered scenes loaded with hot anime characters. Make sure there is at least 4 hours of prerendered footage otherwise I'll think the game is to short and not worth the money. Make sure there are plenty of "codes" so I an skip through the gameplay easily to get to the cool movie parts.

[Dale]

A shop system of some sort(as mentioned earlier)would be a must. A copyrighted mainstream sound track with new hip band's and musicle acts would also help.

But we haft to ask ourselves this do we really want shmups to go mainstream.Possibly but their would be assorted pro's and con's to this.

[Frederik]

Allow credit-feeding? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. If there is ONE thing that so-called "mainstream" gamers need towards shmups is that you get nowhere just plopping in credits and "seing the end" just to let the game catch dust somewhere. It`s the progression that needs to be learned; simply the fact that in shmups (or old platformers) you start over and over again is something not known in modern games (or at least I can`t think of anything comparable).

The concept of dedication, of getting better day by day, is something that you have to learn if you want to play shmups. Well, I got into shmups BECAUSE of their difficulty and their replayability. Maybe a increasing-credit system like in Ikaruga or Gradius V would be better (though the logic would be to need LESS credit after time, yet this system keeps the player playing - this is some sort of unlockable). And unlockables is indeed nice; take R-Type Final for examples - bonus ships rule. Thinking of Batrider, variation and different playmodes would be fitting, too.

As for storylines, I don`t know. Shmups have never been about storylines, at least not about progressively telling a story - a certain context is nice, indeed (take Radiant Silvergun with its time-travelling stuff for example, or modern Cave shmups). Character-based shmups seem to work fine, too - especially with many different characters; having a broad selection of ships is always attracting.

[Frederik]

Or something like RSG where you can keep leveling your ship and saving it.

The Saturn mode of RSG is something I always found highly doubtable; yes, it is convenient, but it takes away the force to making chains and takes away a lot of the orginal gameplay. I think leveling up should stay in RPGs. I liked the poweruplessness of Ikaruga. This way you can`t power DOWN after being hit!

Anyways, the "Mainstream gamers shouldn`t have an opinion about 2D games" thread is still running and the definition of "mainstream gaming" is still as varied and fuzzy as the term "happiness" is.

[Twiddle]

Make appropriate achievements the basis for unlockables.

Example: to get 5 starting ships, you have to get the second extend in a single credit, to unlock Free Play, you have to clear the game in one credit.

[Frederik]

Agreed. Ikaruga really kept me playing this way. That game was actually a nice introduction into the world of shmups, even with its duality system.

[mirkvid]

top 40 licenced music, thug characters, urban setting = $$$.

[FatCobra]

How about ship jacking? Mainstreamers love games where you steal cars.

[gameoverDude]

An 'Easy Mode' option that cuts the power to the PS2 just before score entry, and on reboot, the PS2 tells the player to go play on Normal if they want to save their scores.

Allow scores from the first credit only to be entered. If you're playing a game with no score reset and your score after 1 credit is 12030730, then you continue and end your 2nd credit with 15120701, then the 12030730 should be what goes in for name entry.

Some sort of achievements system should be in place, like this:

* No-Miss Stage 1
* No-Miss Stage 2
* No-Miss All Clear (Giving the player another 2000000 points in TF4 if they can make it through on one ship was a smart move for TechnoSoft. Seeing a No-Miss Bonus of 0 because you lost a few ships gives you motivation to keep playing.)
* Score X points on Stage Y
* Don't allow the player to go to the 2nd loop if their 1CC of the first was done on easy. Give them a "Let's try Normal!" message.

[JBC]

I agree that the game should taunt people who play on the easier modes. To be verbally harsh is 'cool' these days. Having alot of ships to choose from is also a BIG plus.

At the same time make the game thrice as big as Darius Gaiden - with a similar pathway system. After each pathway is completed a gauntlet should unlock where you go through them all with no breaks in order of difficulty.

The graphics need to be VERY spectacular. This shouldn't be much of a problem for shmups on the next gen systems. Think Strikers 1945 II style, with intricate details in everything you see but mixed with the flashyness of Gradius V and energy of Blazing Star. Giving the game bukoo destructible environments is really important. Mega perishable scenery is a really good marketing point.

Two player simultaneous combat should be available, with the option of taking different pathways if playing online - which would be advantageous in some ways and hindering in others, but balanced. Online multiplayer/score keeping is another good selling point. New, downloadable content isn't such a bad idea either.

One thing that scares mainstreamers away from shmups these days - one hit kills. There should be modes that allow different variations on your ships 'health'. Maybe work out a new power meter system or a three hit limit? This could be the main differences between the difficulty modes.

Finally, it needs to be STRANGE. Not in a quirky way, either - but something more original that is kind of ominous and scary feeling. Think back to the first time you saw the Moai's of Gradius or the oddly smooth, cold looking environments in R-Type. If it looks mysterious then people will be drawn in and want to play it just to see what it's all about.

[BulletMagnet]

The Saturn mode of RSG is something I always found highly doubtable; yes, it is convenient, but it takes away the force to making chains and takes away a lot of the orginal gameplay.

It does serve nicely as a "practice mode" of sorts though, which a game as difficult and otherwise inaccessible as RSG definitely needs. Not to mention, of course, that experts can play through Saturn mode without saving and have to go through more stages than in Arcade mode, for an extra challenge.

[Davey]

But we haft to ask ourselves this do we really want shmups to go mainstream.Possibly but their would be assorted pro's and con's to this.

There are cons galore (games would be watered down, more lamewads would come here, etc.), and the only pro is that I wouldn't have to explain to people what shmups are when video games are being discussed (in fact, I usually don't even tell people I like video games for this very reason. That and I don't give a crap about the games that most people play, so why join the conversation?).

[Frederik]

I guess we could discuss about this topic for years since we don`t have a solid description of what mainstream is - yeah, we all know what it means but can`t really nail it.

What`s even a tougher nut to crack, though, is that shmups is genre that can be both considered retro and modern. You can play games that are literally twenty years apart from each other. Mainstream gamers, as I would describe it, orientate themselves after what`s on the market right now. So putting this mentality into the shmup world would result in "Dude, you`re still playing DoDonpachi? Man, I already got Espgaluda II!!"

Often mainstream is connected to certain genres like FPS, but that can`t be it either, since you wouldn`t call someone that plays the original DOOM (or D**M ) today as a mainstream gamer!

Shmups were mainstream in the 90ies, refused dying out, and evolved side by side with the new genres. The concept is old, yet the newer shmups are very modern and evolved.

What it boils down to, is, I guess, that mainstream gamers buy and play whatever is new and hip - similar to the girls and boys that buy whatever they play on the radio the most. The problem (if there is one) is IMO that most young gamers don`t even KNOW that games like shmups (still) exist; as much as many listeners don`t realize how much more music and genres exist besides corporate rock and pop-punk-poseurs. Not that they wouldn`t like it, they simply don`t know that there are alternatives to your local EBGames and the latest release of Madden.

So in order to make shmups mainstream, you would have to replace Need for Speed and GTA with Border Down and Ikaruga, since most people buy whatever they get presented. Remember that we are a very dedicated, specialized group of gamers, dedicated to a specific genre. Imagine the face of a games-chain clerk if you step into the store and say "I played Half-Life and think I am getting into the genre, do you have Perfect Dark and a N64 console?" The gaming industy is still believing that bigger and faster is ALWAYS better, and fail to realize that there is a huge catalogue of great past games.

[Dale]

But we haft to ask ourselves this do we really want shmups to go mainstream.Possibly but their would be assorted pro's and con's to this.

There are cons galore (games would be watered down, more lamewads would come here, etc.), and the only pro is that I wouldn't have to explain to people what shmups are when video games are being discussed (in fact, I usually don't even tell people I like video games for this very reason. That and I don't give a crap about the games that most people play, so why join the conversation?).

Yeah I don't want it going mainstream ether shmups should be a niche genre.
Although maybe so many people wouldn't dis them so much but that doesn't really matter. I also often don't mention that I like games because no one is into the type of games I play. But it is nice because no one ever disses the games I enjoy because they've never heard of them to begin with.

[RoninBuddha]

But it is nice because no one ever disses the games I enjoy because they've never heard of them to begin with.

quite true.

[Randorama]

This thread wins a mention where it belongs , indeed.

[EddyMRA]

Allow credit-feeding? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. If there is ONE thing that so-called "mainstream" gamers need towards shmups is that you get nowhere just plopping in credits and "seing the end" just to let the game catch dust somewhere. It`s the progression that needs to be learned; simply the fact that in shmups (or old platformers) you start over and over again is something not known in modern games (or at least I can`t think of anything comparable).

The concept of dedication, of getting better day by day, is something that you have to learn if you want to play shmups. Well, I got into shmups BECAUSE of their difficulty and their replayability. Maybe a increasing-credit system like in Ikaruga or Gradius V would be better (though the logic would be to need LESS credit after time, yet this system keeps the player playing - this is some sort of unlockable). And unlockables is indeed nice; take R-Type Final for examples - bonus ships rule. Thinking of Batrider, variation and different playmodes would be fitting, too.

Great point. I personally like the gradual increase in credits feature in R-Type Final and Gradius V. It encourages people to improve their skills and get better. This is far more productive and adds to the replayability of shmups than out-of-the-box unlimited credits.

[R_Typist]

The mainstream is the least common denominator. Something pure and honest like Shmups is only going to end up whoring itself if it wants more $$$$$$.

Look at music and M-TV... Observe the effects of the sports world on Tae Kwon Do (WTF and ITF cross comparisons). Consider the overblown rave community on trance music. Wanting a worldwide brotherhood in any activity, country or event is generally a terrible idea.

"The person is smart... people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know that." -Agent K

I am the ultimate social pesimist. A realist to a fault, and an idealist in all the darkness I see.

[EddyMRA]

The mainstream is the least common denominator. Something pure and honest like Shmups is only going to end up whoring itself if it wants more $$$$$$.

Yes, shmups are pure and honest, and they exemplify the concept of gameplay. However, know that tastes in gaming have changed in 20 or so years. To reference fellow shmupper raiden in another thread, perhaps the current taste in gaming is making the player not work too hard to have a thrill of a ride. In other words, the difficulty is set low enough so that everyone can enjoy it: brand new gamers who were born when some of us were graduating from high school and gaming veterans like the most of us in this forum.

If shmups have to change to appeal to the mainstream, so be it. I won't care and won't lose any sleep over it.

[Twiddle]

Games can be difficult but still be popular. See puzzle games!

[Texhnolyze]

I love shmups but they will never be mainstream. It's a pipe dream. The genre is on life support.