Games with the worst Gradius syndrome

[Creamy Goodness]

Besides the actual Gradius games, what games would you say give you very little chance for survival upon death?

[Steven]

Tatsujin Ou

and pretty much any non-MOSS Raiden

[copy-paster]

the original set 1 version of Raiden, seriously what the hell were they thinking? was it meant to be a nod for toaplan shmups they inspired from?

[Steven]

lol ninja'd with Raiden

But Toaplan games have brilliant checkpoints, except 1P Zero Wing and Tatsujin Ou. Uemura/Yuge Toaplan games are basically the anti-Gradius.

[MJR]

Toaplan is THE conpany who made recovery a fun challenge. Figuring out how to survive is part of the fun.
Same applies for Gradius 1 and Gradius 2 and R-Type games.

Raiden and Salamander dont have checkpoints, which can lead to annoying chain deaths.

I guess this topic should be renamed ”games with annoying checkpoints”?

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

nah. gradius syndrome isn't just annoying checkpoints, its also savage de-powering.

[Sumez]

Bubble Bobble

Losing your shoes and fast bubbles on a late-game stage can be a complete death sentence

And being so deep into various powerup triggers at that point, it's probably not likely you'll see either again for a loooong while.

[MJR]

Bubble Bobble

Losing your shoes and fast bubbles on a late-game stage can be a complete death sentence

And being so deep into various powerup triggers at that point, it's probably not likely you'll see either again for a loooong while.

That I can actually agree with. Unless you have a secret code for permanent powerups, why even bother trying seriously. The whole game seems to be designed around the fact that you need to find the codes.

All this being said, we DID 1-All the original arcade game with my workmate when we had it in the office back in 90's, when it was being converted to PS1 / Saturn (the less is said about these conversions, the better. Acclaim wanted to use code from Amiga/ST versions to save money)

[Steven]

nah. gradius syndrome isn't just annoying checkpoints, its also savage de-powering.

I think you could strongly make a case for it being just the de-powering. All you really need to do to back up that case is to look at any game with speedups + instant respawn where you'll chain death to game over upon your first death because you lost your speed, or something like Raiden DX where you're more or less screwed the moment you die, especially because lol no score extends. At least, that's how Raiden DX feels to me.

[Sumez]

Agreed for once. I've never seen "Gradius syndrome" as refering to checkpoints at all. Though the checkpoints definitely can contribute to making regaining power more difficult, which counts.

[velo]

Toaplan is THE conpany who made recovery a fun challenge. Figuring out how to survive is part of the fun.
Same applies for Gradius 1 and Gradius 2 and R-Type games.

It's ironic that Gradius is not a strong example but imo recoveries are awfully rough in the latter half of the original R-Type. R-Type 2 is much more reasonable.

Toaplan is usually fair, but disheartening. Dying on the halfway/end boss of K Tiger is a personal one for me. It's easier to do the trick where you back up and die again to be sent back to the previous checkpoint.

Bubble Bobble

Losing your shoes and fast bubbles on a late-game stage can be a complete death sentence

And being so deep into various powerup triggers at that point, it's probably not likely you'll see either again for a loooong while.

Is there a dummy's guide to Bubble Bobble around here? (probably)

[pegboy]

Twin eagle. Even with the instant powerup bug its still a nightmare and nearly impossible unless you are near the very end of the game.

[Jonpachi]

Sideways take: DDP DOJ. Break a chain > Lose tons of points > Lose the ability to hit the score-based extends > RESTART.

It's almost worse than normal Gradius syndrome as you can't really just tough it out, get a lucky break, and get back into the fight. Rather, if you mess up your Stage 2 chain you instantly know that you just threw tens-of-millions of points the trash that you can never get back and now your ability to unlock score based extends has been threatened as well.

[bobhasashotgun]

I'm going with "Detana!! Twin Bee." Trying to juggle bells, underpowered, while fighting off a swarm of fruits and veggies, is just the worst.

It's a big reason why people avoid this game these days.

[Sumez]

Is there a dummy's guide to Bubble Bobble around here? (probably)

A BB-and-related thread would be cool. But I don't like to make dedicated threads like that about subjects which aren't shooters

I did a small rundown of some of the scoring stuff here, but it's a little erratic.

I actually also wrote a small guide for the game, with some stage-specific strategies that I worked out, but it's WIP and was never posted anywhere

[Gojiguy]

I don't know if I'd call it the "worst" but in Darius II if you die you lose everything: all 8 shot levels, all 6 bomb levels, and all 7 laser levels.

So if you die when you're fully powered up, you're reduced to an awful pea shooter and it'll take a miracle of 21 powerups in perfect distribution to get back to full power. I don't think that's actually possible on a run, so if you die fully powered up, you will never get fully powered up again.

[sunnshiner]

Sideways take: DDP DOJ. Break a chain > Lose tons of points > Lose the ability to hit the score-based extends > RESTART.

It's almost worse than normal Gradius syndrome as you can't really just tough it out, get a lucky break, and get back into the fight. Rather, if you mess up your Stage 2 chain you instantly know that you just threw tens-of-millions of points the trash that you can never get back and now your ability to unlock score based extends has been threatened as well.

RSG and Ikaruga too. No chain, no points = no point. I just fucking hate those games anyway though

[locoBro1196]

Not sure the following are the worst offenders but I'll mention two that I rarely see brought over into this discussion:

- Aldynes for Supergrafx: Have never seen a single replay where there game is completed WITHOUT losing a life. Recovery is just plain impossible.

- Pulstar: I've seen some replays where some EXTREMELY skilled players are able to recover in some parts of the game but in the 50+ hours I've personally spent on this game I've never been able to recover from losing a life.

[velo]

I did a small rundown of some of the scoring stuff here, but it's a little erratic.

That's helpful, thanks. The level of memorization apparently involved is a little intimidating.

I don't know if I'd call it the "worst" but in Darius II if you die you lose everything: all 8 shot levels, all 6 bomb levels, and all 7 laser levels.

So if you die when you're fully powered up, you're reduced to an awful pea shooter and it'll take a miracle of 21 powerups in perfect distribution to get back to full power. I don't think that's actually possible on a run, so if you die fully powered up, you will never get fully powered up again.

The MD port adds an item that powers up your weapons multiple levels, which spawns only after a death. It's more comfortable to play for that reason alone.

[To Far Away Times]

Not sure the following are the worst offenders but I'll mention two that I rarely see brought over into this discussion:

- Aldynes for Supergrafx: Have never seen a single replay where there game is completed WITHOUT losing a life. Recovery is just plain impossible.

- Pulstar: I've seen some replays where some EXTREMELY skilled players are able to recover in some parts of the game but in the 50+ hours I've personally spent on this game I've never been able to recover from losing a life.

Pulstar recoveries are especially nasty because in addition to the typical array of shmup powerups, there are also powerups that increase your weapon’s charging speed.

So after a death, not only are you playing with just a pea shooter and no side pods, but your charge shot also charges slower. Oh yeah, and the game is as long as R-Type 1 and 2 combined for some reason.

[Steven]

Oh man Aldynes lol. Have fun if you die at the last boss. That is an absolutely miserable experience. Cool game, though.

[MJR]

Not sure the following are the worst offenders but I'll mention two that I rarely see brought over into this discussion:

- Aldynes for Supergrafx: Have never seen a single replay where there game is completed WITHOUT losing a life. Recovery is just plain impossible.

- Pulstar: I've seen some replays where some EXTREMELY skilled players are able to recover in some parts of the game but in the 50+ hours I've personally spent on this game I've never been able to recover from losing a life.

Pulstar recoveries are especially nasty because in addition to the typical array of shmup powerups, there are also powerups that increase your weapon’s charging speed.

So after a death, not only are you playing with just a pea shooter and no side pods, but your charge shot also charges slower. Oh yeah, and the game is as long as R-Type 1 and 2 combined for some reason.

Pulstar may be the only MVS cartridge I own that I never had the patience to credit feed to the end. It is just brutal.

[Stevens]

Tatsujin Ou

If there was ever a game that would benefit from no check points and slightly shorter stages.

[Sima Tuna]

R-Type is one of the actual worst for down-powering syndrome. When you respawn, you do so without the Force. Now, some power-ups are negotiable but the Force is not. If you don't get a Force drop within a short time of respawning then you are kinda screwed. Your movement at base level is slow and your ship hitbox is fat. You won't have an answer for bullets from behind, which (this being R-Type) are very common. Sniper enemies appearing behind you are a typical part of the game. You could deal with them using your Force but... If you don't have one then have fun I guess. The default pea shooter is pretty weak and the extra shot types can be very useful in some situations.

The other actual worst power-down syndrome is probably the Raiden games. But mostly I'm thinking of Raiden 1. You spend an entire level (or longer) reaching max power with your ship, so you can just about handle the massive amount of bullshit flying at you. To go from a full-power spread to default power shot is crippling. You might as well reset, because the game isn't getting easier. You won't be given any easy opportunities to hit max power again. The suicide zako only get more numerous and the enemy bullets move at inhuman speeds. Later levels are like a psikyo game except with super slow movement.

Gradius is not the worst for Gradius syndrome imo. It sucks powering down in Gradius but a single speed boost usually puts you into "survivable" territory and you can grab a missile and laser or option pretty quick after that. Pea shooter + 1 option + 1 speed up is not terrible. You only need 3 of the drops to get the 1 speed and missile going.

[To Far Away Times]

R-Type is one of the actual worst for down-powering syndrome. When you respawn, you do so without the Force. Now, some power-ups are negotiable but the Force is not. If you don't get a Force drop within a short time of respawning then you are kinda screwed. Your movement at base level is slow and your ship hitbox is fat. You won't have an answer for bullets from behind, which (this being R-Type) are very common. Sniper enemies appearing behind you are a typical part of the game. You could deal with them using your Force but... If you don't have one then have fun I guess. The default pea shooter is pretty weak and the extra shot types can be very useful in some situations.

Another thing with R-Type 1 is how important the bits are. And there are only three powerups for the whole game (if I recall right), and you need two of them. If you die early enough, you can get both bits back, but if you die after the second bit drops on stage four you are effectively screwed. The bits are useful throughout the run, but in particular when you get to stage six and beyond, positioning the bits to take out enemies and block shots becomes a key part of routing. I can't imagine doing some of those sections without them.

[MJR]

I agree that R-type is extremely tough to recover, but there is certain context in this. Back then, R-Type was a BIG deal. It is one of the games I played religiously for hours.
So considering that back in 1988 or so it DID keep my interest up for the 100 hours you needed to memorize EVERYTHING, it was fully possible to recover from Stage 6. Even that nasty catwalk where bullets fly from every direction

But loop 2 with its disappearing sprites? That was a joke. I think even developers acknowledged it. Still, some people can 2-ALL it. I have the PCB and can clear 1st loop at any time, but I no longer have the stamina for a 2nd loop. Only in Mame I was able to clear it - with save states.

[Sengoku Strider]

Pulstar. It has recovery points on par with Gradius II's final stage by its second level. You have to be perfect with the charge shot to even have a chance at killing the high HP enemies swarming a lot of them.

[Sumez]

I honestly had fun practicing some recoveries in Pulstar, but I agree the powerdown is incredibly severe, and it takes forever to power up again.
I've never beaten the game and wouldn't be surprised if the latter half makes it completely impossible to recover.

[Gojiguy]

The MD port adds an item that powers up your weapons multiple levels, which spawns only after a death. It's more comfortable to play for that reason alone.

Yeah, that can also spawn in the AC version, just rarely.

The PCECD ver (Super Darius II) just powers you down one level per death instead of a total wipe.

[Sengoku Strider]

I honestly had fun practicing some recoveries in Pulstar, but I agree the powerdown is incredibly severe, and it takes forever to power up again.
I've never beaten the game and wouldn't be surprised if the latter half makes it completely impossible to recover.

I really like the game for the atmosphere, it's made my top 25 a couple of times, but Aicom were told by SNK to tone down the difficulty after that game and it's understandable why. Anyone who bought it back in the day surely got their money's worth in play time if they actually beat it, let alone a 1CC, but I don't know how many people would have felt motivated to push through it one quarter at a time. It demands basically perfect execution off respawn from pretty early on. I don't ever recall even seeing it anywhere back in the day.