Yuzo Koshiro is making new MD shmup.

[AGermanArtist]

I had a Japanese MD before its release in the UK. I have a fondness for it and regularly use Ares, but the eXA version takes the MD version and improves upon it. I'd sooner have the eXA version for home use. The eXA certainly adds value, but I can't justify owning it. If I had unlimited pots of cash on the otherhand, I wouldn't be posting here. I'd have it installed in my yacht in Monte Carlo while I shop for a Seiko Credor.
As it stands, my sweet-spot would be $45 for the eXA version on PS5.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Mate no hardware Cave used has ever been high spec. Even the Windows PC(!) used for Desthsmiles 2 is off the shelf. If either company thought the console ports were worth their time, they would have done them. At the end of the day, it is a financial decision because they are companies who need to be profitable. Companies are not here to lose money for your convenience.

Never meant to say that Cave hardware was high spec, just that it was not a freaking Windows PC. I want to think that mentioning the implications of using a freaking Windows PC vs a PCB is not needed at this point.

Re: profitability of console ports. Not sure how that has to do with anything I said, but Cave did make all the ports except for Daioujou and Espgaluda (and PS1 DDP, but they (or Atlus) had picked the SAT for it). The main issue they had is that they needed a publisher as they never were into that. Nobody asked them for the rights to port Feveron, 'rade or Guwange (and Daioujou and 'galuda apparently came to the PS2 later only as a work of love), so likely it wasn't particularly profitable, but those were convoluted times for the STG genre as everybody was looking at the Western markets where this just didn't sell. But Ibara and Mushi for the PS2 were made by Cave themselves.

I reckon you have not been to Japan where the last remaining real arcades like the Mikados and Heys are all running exa cabinets because they are the only ones releasing games that are worth playing. Taito Nesica and Sega PRAS (hello Sonic Wings Rubbish) are both deserted islands.

Not been there for some years now, yeah. But if you only count the Mikados and the Heys as game centers then how are you not seeing it's a dying medium even in Japan.

If you think the re-releases are just tweaks, then I do not think you even seriously play shmups. They may not be all original games like the heyday of Cave but they are damn good and play significantly different. Go ahead and tell me Air Gallet and Fixeight are just tweaks or Earthion isn’t a better game in the arcade. The Japanese players I’ve talked to and the many submissions on JHA are evidence enough.

Again, never meant to say that the tweaks aren't good or significant as I've never played them, just that they're tweaks of old games. Of known stuff (which usually was already good). It was you the one comparing Exarcadia with Cave and Eighting - these offered almost always something actually new.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I just think the image quality is sharper and more pleasant, the gadgets are interesting and the voicework and music isn't bitcrushed to absolute fuck. I also like the little text boxes for each weapon. I'd sooner pay extra to get something comparable, just not $1800 for the eXA cart and the h/ware to play it on.

For me it really is part of the charm Maybe you're not into megadrive at all, or you just prefer to play games with modern improvements when you can, anyway not to start a discussion but out of interest i wonder which of these options you would prefer?
- Earthion on stock megadrive cart with current voices/samples/etc
- Earthion on a megadrive cart with custom FPGA allowing higher quality voices/samples/etc
- Fuck megadrive just give me PC

Choice #1 of being able to play Earthion on a "plain vanilla" stock MD/Genesis cart would be the most affordable method of producing it for mass consumption whereas with choice #2, that would be an even better and more desirable variant MD/Genesis Earthion cart worth buying just to listen to the higher bit-rate voice-overs/BGM tunes/sound effects easily (thus making it a high-powered MD/Genesis cart on steroids, indeed, but at a higher initial MSRP price-point) -- it can easily be done/pulled off.

Ancient and Limited Run Games would wise to release both choice #1 and choice #2 together (but choice #2 would be, naturally, the ideal and preferred one to buy on "day one" of release by itself and disregard/skip manufacturing choice #1 entirely to give MD/Genesis gamers the best version "hands down").

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Skykid]

Apologies if this has been covered already but can anyone explain to me how to do the purge timing to kill the stage 7 midboss? I've tried countless times and looked at Jaimer's video and I can't get it to connect. Does it only work on Hotshot mode or something?

Many thanks

[SuperPang]

How can you possibly *defend* not allowing for more accessible ports of those revisions?

So how would this work exactly? Console port of the EXA Label games after 6-12 months? The arcade versions simply wouldn't sell if that was the case. Go and ask any op who forked out 5 figures for a recent Street Fighter or similar.

[Jackoz]

Apologies if this has been covered already but can anyone explain to me how to do the purge timing to kill the stage 7 midboss? I've tried countless times and looked at Jaimer's video and I can't get it to connect. Does it only work on Hotshot mode or something?

Many thanks

Stay at the bottom portion of the screen and wait for the center to materialize before purging.

[Jackoz]

Go ahead and tell me Air Gallet and Fixeight are just tweaks or Earthion isn’t a better game in the arcade

Given it's nearly impossible to play those games, how would anyone be able to tell you that?
How can you possibly *defend* not allowing for more accessible ports of those revisions? You even claim they are better games, but you don't want people to be able to play them? What the hell.

Mate you are putting words into my mouth.

I’m saying If the companies cannot see a financial return in doing these ports, they are not going to do them. You seem to want them to lose money or go bankrupt for your accessibility. This is the real world where people need to get paid for their work or any given company would go under and stop making games. Why does Cave not make the games we like anymore? They make more money on mobile and have to pay all of their employees salaries every month. Why does exa not make games on other platforms? I wager because it is not worth it. Have a quick look at Fixeight sales on Steam. Not even 500 copies sold….you reckon that was worth doing from the company’s perspective?

[Skykid]

Apologies if this has been covered already but can anyone explain to me how to do the purge timing to kill the stage 7 midboss? I've tried countless times and looked at Jaimer's video and I can't get it to connect. Does it only work on Hotshot mode or something?

Many thanks

Wait at the bottom portion of the screen and wait for the center to materialize before purging.

Ok got it. It wasn't what I thought. Since I move it onto my arcade machine my buttons were mismatched and I didn't have ABC lol. It kept auto purging and missing and I thought it was meant to be on a delay

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Some of the better dedicated MD/SG based arcade sticks to use when playing Earthion include the following listed below:

The original Sega MegaDrive Power Arcade Stick has a micro-switched based joystick (whereas with the USA region Sega Genesis Arcade Power Stick sold at retail courtesy of Sega of America, it uses a non-clicky joystick using rubber controller membrane interface instead): https://www.ebay.com/itm/303846848398?_ ... BMzKnoj5dm

The Asciiware Power Clutch SG arcade stick is awesome on a MD/SG console setup in that it has on-board auto-fire for up to 28 shots per second maximum (if the auto-fire pentiometer-based dial is cranked up to the maximum setting) + slo-motion functionality as well. It uses a non-clicky joystick with rubber controller membrane as it's joystick input interface (but still quite responsive nevertheless). In Japan, this particular Mega Drive arcade stick is known as the Cluster Stick E's with model #CS-3000MD: https://www.ebay.com/itm/296865019784?_ ... R8b1o4-XZg

Asciiware followed up with the Sega Genesis "Fighter Stick SG6" update/upgrade (including "hands-free" auto-fire functionality as well for all six buttons -- how cool is that?): https://www.ebay.com/itm/205472657904?_ ... R7SBgp6XZg

The Capcom Power Stick GS is a micro-switched based joystick and can be configured for either a 4-way or more traditional 8-way joystick on the MD/SG consoles and has built-in auto-fire + slo-mo functionality if it needed be -- these were manufactured in Japan, indeed, with the USA region Sega Genesis variant being offered here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/326723261226?_ ... R8rNupCXZg

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[bbbhltz]

LRG will do whatever is cheapest for them to produce, not what is best for the customer.

[spmbx]

A cart with some FPGA and custom sound or whatever would be the absolute worst of the worst. I absolutely loathe added custom non-original and useless FPGA addons.

[Sumez]

If any on-cart logic (like for dynamic address mapping) is required, FPGA sounds like a logical choice, though? What's wrong with it?

[spmbx]

That i very much disagree with the earlier claim that said "higher bitrate BGM tunes with a FPGA setup = the best & ultimate ideal consumer mass-produced MD/SG cart release".

"yeah i like megadrive, i just don't like that it's not fast enough, doesn't have enough colors, the bitrate is too low and there is not enough rom space, and the controllers have too few buttons"

[Sumez]

That i very much disagree with the earlier claim that said "higher bitrate BGM tunes with a FPGA setup = the best & ultimate ideal consumer mass-produced MD/SG cart release".

"yeah i like megadrive, i just don't like that it's not fast enough, doesn't have enough colors, the bitrate is too low and there is not enough rom space, and the controllers have too few buttons"

That I can agree with.
I've made that point before, I think in regards to Paprium or something similar, where IMO if a game isn't actually running on the MegaDrive, it's not really a MegaDrive game. Surprisingly a lot of people disagree with that.

The typical counterargument would be something like Starfox. But I'd also argue that Starfox is more of a SuperFX game.

[MintyTheCat]

That i very much disagree with the earlier claim that said "higher bitrate BGM tunes with a FPGA setup = the best & ultimate ideal consumer mass-produced MD/SG cart release".

"yeah i like megadrive, i just don't like that it's not fast enough, doesn't have enough colors, the bitrate is too low and there is not enough rom space, and the controllers have too few buttons"

That I can agree with.
I've made that point before, I think in regards to Paprium or something similar, where IMO if a game isn't actually running on the MegaDrive, it's not really a MegaDrive game. Surprisingly a lot of people disagree with that.

The typical counterargument would be something like Starfox. But I'd also argue that Starfox is more of a SuperFX game.

I'd argue that it is not say the CPU - the 68000 that makes the Megadrive "the Megadrive" but it is the Megadrive's VDP ultimately that makes Paprium and other released games Megadrive games.

How the Megadrive looks is vital to this : you cannot add more colours, graphic modes, resolutions, etc. to what the stock MD VDP allows. These are limits to what the VDP can produce.

Considering that nearly all of the heavy work on a MD game rests on "feeding the VDP" : DMA copying data into VRAM, updating the CRAM, etc. demonstrates this.

Plus, with the exception of Virtua Racing [1] and Paprium, all the rest of the games released for the Megadrive were using standard hardware. Street Fighter II has some extra banking logic - nothing special.

If you wish to form the argument that "it is not an X game due to A cartridge hardware" then look at the famicom and Super famicom - a very large proportion of those games feature custom chips, but they still are limited to what the FC / SFC's VDP can perform.

This argument that a game "isn't a proper game" due to the presence of custom chips is pointless.


[1] https://segaretro.org/Virtua_Racing

[Sumez]

I'd argue that it is not say the CPU - the 68000 that makes the Megadrive "the Megadrive" but it is the Megadrive's VDP ultimately that makes Paprium and other released games Megadrive games.

I understand your point, but it is also the CPU(s), sound chip, DMA channels, etc. The console is the combination of all the hardware inside it. Of course, the graphics is arguably the most prominent part of a console's features (which makes advertising them as "16 bit consoles" even more laughable), so at least I understand where you're coming from. But..

If you wish to form the argument that "it is not an X game due to A cartridge hardware" then look at the famicom and Super famicom - a very large proportion of those games feature custom chips, but they still are limited to what the FC / SFC's VDP can perform.

If you want to be technical, I really do think those chips also form the identity of those games, outside of just what the SNES is. This is exactly why I brought that up in my previous post.

The SuperFX chip again is the most notable example due to its ability to quickly transform polygons. Its output was then fed to the graphics chip (PPU) memory, in a manner that basically bypasses its design rather than playing into it, drawing lines and surfaces across multiple tiles, as opposed to using the tiles to build a nametable map. As such, the graphics you get in a game like Starfox or Virtua Racing is not really representative of the console's hardware, even if it still needs to comply to most of its limitations.

Another good example would be exactly the thing spmbx brought up. You could just use a gigantic ROM size and feed music as a continuous streaming DMC sample. It's technically doable on the MegaDrive, but if you think of "MegaDrive music", is that really what you think of?
I think this distinction is less important when looking at contemporary commercial games, since obviously they would need every trick in the book to look as advanced as possible, and if it was affordable to have an entirely sample based soundtrack, they definitely would have. But in the context of homebrew/aftermarket games, you also gotta look at intent. We live in 2025, everything is possible compared to what these games did. You could just *NOT* program for old consoles, and make an Unreal Engine game on PC which doesn't have to care about palettes or sprite size limitations.

To *ME*, what I'm looking for when I'm programming old console hardware, is something representative of those consoles - I'm choosing to not rely on modern hardware. Otherwise why would I even care about it? Other homebrewers might have different intent, and it's definitely not up to me to decide what anyone can or can't do - anything you can do is interesting. You could put a CPU capable of running an Unreal Engine game inside a MegaDrive cartridge and then do your best to translate that into something the VDP could render. And for sure that would be interesting as fuck, I would never claim otherwise. The only thing I'd claim is that it's not strictly a MegaDrive game Your standard might be different, but you gotta put a threshold somewhere.

This argument that a game "isn't a proper game" due to the presence of custom chips is pointless.

Let's be 100% clear here for a moment - no such claim was ever made!

[MintyTheCat]

Sumez:

yes, there are corner cases, but for the most part it really comes down to the VDP and architecture.

I'd argue that it is the VDP and the standard audio hardware that define the machine, as, well, that's what most developers had to utilise.

It is possible to mix in audio on the MD, but think about when the machine was made: memory would have been rather expensive back then, so sure, it was technically possible but unlikely due to economic constraints - the NeoGeo being a premium machine based in the arcade had an entirely different customer profile and the economics were entirely different, and hence, lots of chips were used on a NeoGeo cart.

As I understand it, and I really dislike the Fonzie of Water Melon infamy, but, it still uses the PSG and the YM2612 but they added extra audio channels on-board the cart that is effectively "streamed" and mixed by the MD's audio hardware, with much of the character again being limited by the mixer hardware itself and any DACs and such in the signal path.

If I say 68000 it could be something used on the Amiga, the Atari ST, NeoGeo, MD, CPS1, etc.
But it's hardly the point : it doesn't matter *how* I talk to the hardware - the means, i.e. the CPU or the steps I have to take but rather that I talk to the hardware because that is what's unique to the platform.

Instead, I focus on the VDP and audio hardware.

Of course, the YM2413, YM2612 and YM2610 are all "FM Synthesis chips" but they are all different with each allowing a differing number of modes, voice slots, FM Operators, FM Algorithms, etc. but they are all FM.

The NeoGeo being a machine that didn't mind spending money on extra PROM chips for audio and graphic data made it more likely that larger samples could be utlised - it all occupies memory, and so the sound of the NeoGeo is quite different to the MD which had the YM2612 and the PSG.

When I think of say a famicom game the first thing that I tend to focus on is the colour palette offered and the limit on sprites per line which lead often to that "vanishing sprite effect".

Sumez:

To *ME*, what I'm looking for when I'm programming old console hardware, is something representative of those consoles - I'm choosing to not rely on modern hardware. Otherwise why would I even care about it? Other homebrewers might have different intent, and it's definitely not up to me to decide what anyone can or can't do - anything you can do is interesting. You could put a CPU capable of running an Unreal Engine game inside a MegaDrive cartridge and then do your best to translate that into something the VDP could render. And for sure that would be interesting as fuck, I would never claim otherwise. The only thing I'd claim is that it's not strictly a MegaDrive game Your standard might be different, but you gotta put a threshold somewhere.

I have long argued that to not know the hardware of the MD, to effectively allow others to make decisions and such, to not know how this fairly limited piece of gear works, how to optimise it, how to gain insight into how it executes, etc. all of this leads to sub-standard execution.

When you say "not choosing to rely on modern hardware" do you mean adding extra processors and such or do you mean that your devtools and machines are also of the same spec to the late 80s/early 90s?

I'd say that it is more about developing decent gaming software for the MD and indeed any other console.

If you can get it to execute on the MD then it is a "MD game" - it isn't running some instance of VNC

But for the vast majority of recent homebrew efforts on the MD : many folks lack the low-level experience to write decent software, you can utilise profilers and coverage tools, use logic analysers and In-Circuit-Emulators to gain insight into how the software executes and this will lead the developer to determine where to optimise and how to ensure good performance - after all, a game must perform and be fun to play and interactive - no one wants to experience too much slowdown and a lack of response to control.

I have been a long-term user of UMDK[1] which gives me many useful services and especially the trace mode that allows the developer the means to analyse how their software is executing on the MD hardware.

One chap put up a video demonstrating UMDK's GDB in action [2].

I have some additions to the project that have not been integrated into the repo yet, and I also wish to develop some more tools to help provide insight from the traces.

Just to add: most MD games are in some kind of "Game Loop", there are VBlank and Non-VBlank phases, your main issue for most of the time it to prepare to DMA graphics, sprite and colour data on the VBlank as the DMA is much faster during this phase, so it is a kind of strange *juggling act* really.

Trying disassembling a few commercial MD ROMs or have a look at Sonic 1 as there's a decent project with a repo that is well documented [3].

[1] https://github.com/makestuff/umdkv2
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPK5c4-eEEo
[3] https://github.com/sonicretro/s1disasm

[Sumez]

It is possible to mix in audio on the MD, but think about when the machine was made: memory would have been rather expensive back then, so sure, it was technically possible but unlikely due to economic constraints

Well that is the exact point I'm making, so you do get it then

If I say 68000 it could be something used on the Amiga, the Atari ST, NeoGeo, MD, CPS1, etc.
But it's hardly the point : it doesn't matter *how* I talk to the hardware - the means, i.e. the CPU or the steps I have to take but rather that I talk to the hardware because that is what's unique to the platform.

The MegaDrive VDP is not unique to the platform either. The system is built almost entirely from off-the-shelf components.

When you say "not choosing to rely on modern hardware" do you mean adding extra processors and such or do you mean that your devtools and machines are also of the same spec to the late 80s/early 90s?

When I say "not choosing to rely on modern hardware" I mean I'm making a game for (insert old console system here) and not for a 2025 consumer PC.
I get your point about tools etc., but that wasn't what I was talking about, it was just worded a bit dumb.

Just to add: most MD games are in some kind of "Game Loop", there are VBlank and Non-VBlank phases, your main issue for most of the time it to prepare to DMA graphics, sprite and colour data on the VBlank as the DMA is much faster during this phase, so it is a kind of strange *juggling act* really.

This is true for pretty much any type of video game hardware, and even affects modern computers as well in a similar way, even though they don't rely on CRT vblank periods. This is why you have concepts like "vsync" in much newer games. To avoid glitchy graphics you always want to buffer what's relevant for the next frame before it starts getting processed by the video hardware.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

In regards to the MD/SG cart of Virtua Racing with it's built-in SVP chip, how many low-res polygons is it capable of generating in "real time" (without "slow-down," of course)?

Is it even possible to make a homebrew MD/SG game utilizing the SVP chip so that it'd could run the 60fps framerate benchmark/goal?

Hypothetically, what other low-res arcade title could have Sega pulled off with the SVP chip if they had did a proper second game title using it?

I know the Krikzz Mega Everdrive X7 can play/run the MD/SG Virtua Racing rom without any problems in both 50hz & 60hz at the flick of a switch..

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Sumez]

Is it even possible to make a homebrew MD/SG game utilizing the SVP chip so that it'd could run the 60fps framerate benchmark/goal?

Not sure how fast the MegaDrive can do this (the real blast processing test), but no matter how fast you can generate the polygons, you're gonna be limited by the bandwidth of how long it takes to DMA the new graphics to the video chip.
This wouldn't be a restriction on the NES, which actually maps video data directly to the cartridge chip. So the cartridge itself can swap out all the graphics data used by the game in less than a single CPU cycle.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Is it even possible to make a homebrew MD/SG game utilizing the SVP chip so that it'd could run the 60fps framerate benchmark/goal?

Not sure how fast the MegaDrive can do this (the real blast processing test), but no matter how fast you can generate the polygons, you're gonna be limited by the bandwidth of how long it takes to DMA the new graphics to the video chip.
This wouldn't be a restriction on the NES, which actually maps video data directly to the cartridge chip. So the cartridge itself can swap out all the graphics data used by the game in less than a single CPU cycle.

Thank you for that quick reply back, Sumez.

Wow, so with the FC/NES cart of Estique stg, it's capable of running at 60fps then (with a bit of sprite flickering at times)?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[MintyTheCat]

The MegaDrive VDP is not unique to the platform either. The system is built almost entirely from off-the-shelf components.

But it is what the MD has as VDP, therefore it is "canon"

I don't think some of the Modes on the MD's VDP are supported but it can handle Mode 4 and 5 from memory.
Mode 4 is the one that the SMS needs.

Did you do anything on the SMS or MD yourself? I remember you telling me that you were dabbling with the SFC and you mentioned trackers and the sound system for the SFC.

Tbh I never found the SFC's audio gear all that interesting.

[Sumez]

If there's anything positive I would say about the SNES's audio hardware, it's that it's definitely interesting, haha. It's a thing alright.
But as far as the sounds they produce, the SNES is ultimately just a worse version of everything that came after, while the MegaDrive's FM synthesis remains a unique sound to this day.

I have never programmed anything SMS or MD myself, though I'm vaguely familiar with the hardware. I find the SNES to be by far the most interesting console from that whole early era as far as hardware and programming goes, due to all the crazy things you can do with it, and the crazy ways you need to do them.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

As it is with both the 1st gen Sega Genesis & Mega Drive consoles, it's well known that the backside A/V port only outputs in "mono-phonic" output -- but if you buy a 3rd-party SG1 stereo A/V cable, it'll output in true stereo utilizing the front-side headphone output jack indeed (akin to those SG1 Euro Scart cables being offered for sale): https://www.ebay.com/itm/297241748781?_ ... miZg&pfm=1

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[xEbb1993x]

Spoiler

A minor thing that bothers me, but do you really have to beat the game without dying at all to hear the villain's speech at the end? Otherwise it just cuts to them abruptly getting finished off.

[Despatche]

A couple of years ago people were berating them for creating an exclusive product for an artificially restricted audience, and now they are berating them for creating an exclusive product for an artificially restricted audience.

As a general rule - no, companies can't "win" as long as they rely on distinctly and intentionally consumer-hostile business models.

Translation: people are mad because they can't have some luxury that is not meant for them. Unwilling to accept that this is a problem with themselves, they declare "anti-consumerism" about a market they are literally not part of.

As long as people continue to meme about "needing" to buy "expensive" hardware and games, about a device that is not meant for individuals to buy, all the "berating" in the world means nothing.

This isn't behavior to be praised for, it's behavior to be mocked for.

You see the same tendencies with companies like Nintendo, etc. meeting hostility around the internet.

This is a completely different case. It's also still due to disgusting misinformation artificially invented by disgusting people anyway.

people are gonna voice dissatisfaction

People who "voice dissatisfaction" like this, about things that they won't even try to understand, do not have a voice.

Given it's nearly impossible to play those games, how would anyone be able to tell you that?
How can you possibly *defend* not allowing for more accessible ports of those revisions? You even claim they are better games, but you don't want people to be able to play them? What the hell.

For anyone who thinks my snarky fake translation is "reductive", it is not at all, and this post right here is why.

It is not "nearly impossible" to play these games. You are simply unwilling to do the bare minimum required to play them: find an arcade that has them, ask local arcades to buy them, go to Japanese arcades (the target market) that have them, etc. This is "too much" for you, yet it's somehow also "beneath" you.

You don't get to claim that the rules are broken when you don't even make an attempt to follow those rules.

[Sumez]

"local arcades" lol

[AGermanArtist]

[Despatche]

"local arcades" lol

And you being dismissive like this is exactly why whatever local arcades you might have had are dead. All the Americans, who do still have local arcades in certain places even now, engage in the same stupid meme. If you don't have local arcades, that means you're not part of the market. It's not anyone's fault for not catering to you. It's not "anti-consumer" to make a product for a market that isn't yours.

You do this in every single thread. You come into a situation and go on and on and on about how things are actually this way, except you're completely wrong about it. Then, whenever you get called out for it, you either project onto the person calling you out, or you just waste everyone's time (including yours!) by being as pointlessly dismissive and snarky as possible. You don't know as much as you think you do, Sumez! I don't know why I have to be the one to tell you this, you won't listen to anything I have to say, but God damn it, someone has to tell you!

[spmbx]

about a device that is not meant for individuals to buy

Except they make editions that appeal to private collectors with painted cases, extra physical tat etc etc. Those are explicitly meant and marketed for private individuals.