Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

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R79
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Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by R79 »

Wind back 15 years or so, and suddenly all these epic scrolling Shooters were coming out on... Xbox

Japanese software, American hardware, and some of these infamous releases (we all know them by now on here, I'm sure) were even region free :!:

But within Japan itself, where so many of these games were originally made, and indeed, pitched at the domestic arcade scene, Sony consoles were really dominating, while the Xbox was not selling as well. Just the basic facts. Cave's output has slowed down considerably since those giddy times, with other companies mostly just reporting their older output onto more contemporary platforms.
Of course, the wider JP arcade scene was winding down in tandem, and these type of difficult, short but intense games have long been pretty niche even in their homeland for much of this century... but do you think a fairly firm refusal to have their games appear on the popular Sony console of the day, was effectively a stubborn hubris on the part of Cave, financially?

Apologies if this has been chewed over before. I was kinda in blissful ignorance about how the company have effectively stalled or even gone defunct since back then, not checking in here for a while :oops:
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by Light1000 »

IIRC the issue was that Sony didn't want 2d games on the PS3, (until much later) and Xbox was willing to pay CAVE more to put games on the 360 since they had such little market share in Japan and needed more Japanese games.
The real question would be if CAVE made a mistake not porting their games to Wii or PC or internationally. (second point, Mushihimesama was the top selling CAVE steam port, 41k in 3 years (2015-2018) imagine how much they could have gotten if they put it on Steam in 2014 or earlier? compare 2014 releases: Ikaruga:128k, Astebreed:99k, CCWI: 78k (source: 2018 Steam sales data leak)) (third point, Deathsmiles sold a solid 280k, 150k of that being America and 60k being Europe! XBLA releases would also have had a lot of potential) Or if it was a mistake to have all of their home ports to come credit-feeding enabled. Or if it was a mistake for CAVE to become a publicly traded company in the first place.
Last edited by Light1000 on Fri Sep 05, 2025 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

Not to mention DoDonpachi Sai-Dai-Ou-Jou being the "swan song" arcade stg pcb release back in early 2012 with an initial MSRP of $2,400 usd per kit. Of course, those days of buying a DDP-SDOJ pcb kit at that attractive price are long gone since then.

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What would it take for Cave Co. Ltd. to return to the arcade scene (aside from their Exa-Arcadia stg offerings) with a brand new dedicated arcade hardware platform?
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AGermanArtist
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by AGermanArtist »

Sony wanted to push the 1080p dream.
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by Jonpachi »

It’s not that Cave cared about platform, but rather that Microsoft threw money around to court Japanese exclusives to try and grow their market share in Japan. Cave likely got a sweetheart deal that the arrogant PS3-era Sony couldn’t and wouldn’t match. And don’t forget that 5pb did put out Ketsui on the console, so it’s not like Cave had a ban on PS3. It’s just business, same with all the other 360 exclusives.
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by To Far Away Times »

The Ikaruga HD port was the first big shmup release that generation, and it was an XBLA exclusive back in 2008. Futari’s 360 port came out the following year.

Ikaruga HD probably drove a lot of shmup players to Xbox, and if you can only support one, you might as well go where you think the audience is.
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by Jonpachi »

Cost to the developer from Microsoft to get an Xbox 360 Dev Kit in 2005 - $0
Cost to the developer from Sony to get a Playstation 3 Dev Kit in 2006 - $20,000

This is why you saw so many of the small publishers on 360, and why Cave couldn't afford to gamble on PS3. M$ also threw extra cash at Japanese devs to gain exclusivity, which is where Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey came from in addition to all the other shmups from companies other than Cave.
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by BulletMagnet »

In terms of Cave's eventual fate I doubt that having focused more on the PS3 would have made much of a difference, larger trends and tastes among gamers would have continued along the same trajectory and, I would posit, lead to much the same result.
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

BulletMagnet wrote: Sat Sep 06, 2025 1:02 am In terms of Cave's eventual fate I doubt that having focused more on the PS3 would have made much of a difference, larger trends and tastes among gamers would have continued along the same trajectory and, I would posit, lead to much the same result.

Looking back in retrospect, Cave's future as the leading arcade stg developer/publisher was "on the decline" as well. They did, however, release DDP-SDOJ v1.5 -- which is better than nothing (but an official proper "Black Label" variant pcb release would've been better). It is what it is. There's the sole "Developer's Debugger" variant arcade pcb of DDP-SDOJ to take into consideration also (but it's currently in the hands of a "privateer arcade stg collector" nowadays).

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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by Jackoz »

Microsoft gave Japanese developers heaps of financial incentives to develop on 360. Sony did not and their installed base was the worst of the big 3 so it was not worth Cave’s time. Any business is the same. Will it make money doing PS3 or something else like arcade?
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by Lemnear »

Was this a choice encouraged by Microsoft or did they actually sign console exclusivity for the various ports at the time?
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by R79 »

Jackoz wrote: Sun Sep 07, 2025 1:36 pm Microsoft gave Japanese developers heaps of financial incentives to develop on 360. Sony did not and their installed base was the worst of the big 3 so it was not worth Cave’s time. Any business is the same. Will it make money doing PS3 or something else like arcade?
Surely the PS3 sold a lot more, and was the dominant system that generation, within Japan itself? Do we have any concrete evidence of a sweetheart deal from MS locking in pretty obscure JP SoftCos like Cave (or Seibu) to their ecosystem? I can see how Sony perhaps weren't that keen on 2d games appearing on their consoles by this point. Seems remarkable and bizarre only Ketsui slipped through the net, domestically. For sure, no doubt arcade board pricing and general closure of those establishments were also major factors in their demise.
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Re: Looking back, did Cave make a major error shunning the PS3?

Post by Jonpachi »

R79 wrote: Sun Sep 07, 2025 3:30 pm
Jackoz wrote: Sun Sep 07, 2025 1:36 pm Microsoft gave Japanese developers heaps of financial incentives to develop on 360. Sony did not and their installed base was the worst of the big 3 so it was not worth Cave’s time. Any business is the same. Will it make money doing PS3 or something else like arcade?
Surely the PS3 sold a lot more, and was the dominant system that generation, within Japan itself? Do we have any concrete evidence of a sweetheart deal from MS locking in pretty obscure JP SoftCos like Cave (or Seibu) to their ecosystem? I can see how Sony perhaps weren't that keen on 2d games appearing on their consoles by this point. Seems remarkable and bizarre only Ketsui slipped through the net, domestically. For sure, no doubt arcade board pricing and general closure of those establishments were also major factors in their demise.
As I posted above:

Cost to the developer from Microsoft to get an Xbox 360 Dev Kit in 2005 - $0 USD
Cost to the developer from Sony to get a Playstation 3 Dev Kit in 2006 - $20,000 USD

And additionally:

Cost to the developer to print an Xbox 360 disc - $2.50 USD
Cost to the developer to print a PS3 disc - $3-$10 USD

That's just to start with, and there were absolutely exclusivity bonuses thrown around to court Cave and others to go Xbox, as well as kickstart larger projects like Mistwalker. All this is to say that the notion that Cave as a company somehow had a personal preference for Xbox is just untrue. Xbox just made the most business sense for them, and in the end it did sustain them for many years.
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