Arcade Authenticity Vs. Modern Technology--some thoughts on new Nipple Cap buttons and Hall Effect Keyboards

[blazinglazers69]

So I originally posted this as a comment in a youtube video posted by my dude SpidersSTG on YT. For context I'd recommend first watching his review of the Flexigear FlashTap Nipple Cap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp9YgrTISY8

And my thoughts:

This raises some pretty interesting questions. I've been playing R-Type II, and using autofire allows you to cheese the hardest boss (Rios) in the game for an instakill. So while I got the clear it's like...did I REALLY get the clear? I guess autofire just takes the difficulty down a level and for the most part I'm okay with that since I find mashing uncomfortable.

The idea behind mashing vs autofire is that it's more AUTHENTIC to mash if that's how a game was originally designed. So if you make a fancy nipple product, you're kind of occupying a grey zone. Yes, you're not using autofire, but also you're straying away from the hardware that would have been available on a legit arcade machine that didn't have fancy nipples. And yet, the tweaking is more ergonomic than mashing...so it's an interesting grey zone.

For that matter, is using an M30 or any other controller "cheating" or not legit considering these old games were designed for arcade levers? Hell, is using a more SENSITIVE better designed K-lever for example giving you an edge over whatever the heck kind of lever a given arcade cab would have had!?

Basically, I think that once you're emulating or even playing a port and not on an arcade cabinet, a certain amount of authenticity is sacrificed and that's just the cost of being able to play these games in 2025. So with that being said, the only real standard that matters is what a given player finds fun and/or efficient.

I still stand by Hall Effect keyboards being the final input method for me when it comes to shmups and FPS. It's simply the most precise and powerful tool on the market in terms of 8k polling vs standard 1000Hz polling, and fine-tuning, customizable actuation. You make a great point about hitting an arcade button at an angle and potentially failing to actuate. With HE tech, you can set it so that your actuation activates at 0.1mm. 0.1mm!!!! You put ANY pressure on that, you're getting an input. The sensitivity is PEAK.

But I totally get that everyone finds different stuff fun. A keyboard does feel more "left brained" than the buttery smooth feeling of a good lever. Not to mention maybe the subconscious feeling that a keyboard is something we all use for work, vs an arcade stick is only used for fun and serves that purpose alone. That's another reason why as much as I love HE keyboards, I don't suspect they would ever replace an arcade stick for many players.

Having said that, there is absolutely a void to be filled here: a Hall Effect arcade stick. Simply replace the mechanical micro switches with the magnetic switches of a HE keyboard along with the buttons and it could be a game changing, revolutionary input method. Just imagine an arcade stick with adjustable actuation at the mm level. The raw power of HE with the old school vibe of a stick. Man. Someone is gonna figure it out eventually and make bank. I've already noticed some controllers with HE sticks and triggers, and even a new PXN controller with 8k polling. It's probably just a matter of time.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

So while I got the clear it's like...did I REALLY get the clear?

Yes you did; basically any major Japanese arcade nowadays has autofire setups on their cabs for button mashy shmups because they discovered decades ago that a game that optimally requires you to mash furiously non stop sucks ass and designed hardware to resolve that. I've been to at least 3 in Japan (A-Cho, HEY, one in Nara whose name escapes me, it had Darius Gaiden) that all had older games with quality setups to spare your fingers from the mashing.

The whole mentality about it only being legit if you do it mashing furiously yourself is a faux-retro obsessed North American phenomenon from people who don't stop to consider that a) a mechanic that sucks for people with arthritis isn't cool and b) a high tech spaceship would probably have automatic cannons (we've had machineguns as technology since at least the 1920s, lol).

Most games that benefit from autofire for scoring also have a separate autofire off scoreboard if that's really your thing, so it's the best of both worlds nowadays. Use it or don't, your call. Just don't complain when people naturally expect their futuristic spaceship to have futuristic guns. ^^

[Creamy Goodness]

There are extremely practical reasons to use autofire beyond the ease it creates. I do not want to get carpal tunnel from my gaming and I do not want to destroy the buttons on my arcade stick. Also if you are using pad it can be very awkward to mash (see carpal tunnel comment).

[BulletMagnet]

I'm most immediately reminded of the custom autofire circuits installed on many of the arcade machines (and later integrated into the home ports) of Mushihime-sama to make "counter-banking" easier. It's not quite the same situation since its target is high scores and not raw survival, but to the best of my knowledge few people said that they should be prohibited, or even that scores achieved without them should be listed separately; it was just kind of assumed that if you were going for a high score you'd be using it, it became more or less the "default" way to play, or at least play "seriously".

I also seem to recall a similar question being raised in regards to some autofire setting or other in Darius Gaiden, and that most folks simply agree that it makes the game better and leave it at that. About the only time I remember the use of autofire being questioned as means to a "legit" clear is in the 32-bit home port of Gun frontier, apparently some thought it pretty much broke the game.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

On the classic Capcom arcade pcb of "Hyper Dyne Sidearms," the default auto-fire setting upon grabbing a certain power-up is faster than if you were to hook up an external auto-fire pcb to it -- this was back in late December of 1986 for the original JPN "Zetta Gattai Sidearms" pcb release (whereas with the USA region Sidearms variant pcb released through Romstar Incorporated themselves in the Spring of 1987, it too, has the very same default auto-fire setting as that it's JPN region pcb counterpart indeed).

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It was truly a "lifesaver" of being able to cruise/breeze through the Romstar variant Sidearms pcb on my very first life (with six lives in reserve altogether) to face an eventual ultimate showdown with the "Bozon" giant mechanized worm "end-game" boss back in April/May of 1988 with the default auto-fire weapon given at hand.
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At one local American arcade hangout, it had a Centuri upright cab of "Time Pilot" (circa 1982) that had an auto-fire pcb hack applied to it, which all you had to do was hold down the fire button (without the normal "wear 'n' tear" associated with mashing down the fire button with a default "stock" TP pcb). There was a note placed on the right-side TP arcade control panel mentioning of an auto-fire hack was installed to let arcade gamers know about it. This particular 3rd-party arcade operator TP auto-fire hack was already installed back in 1984-1985.

Of course, the sequel of Konami's "Time Pilot '84" was given auto-fire functionality as standard from the "get-go" with both the original JPN & USA pcbs of the same name.

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The above auto-fire endowed arcade pcbs mentioned above are the earliest well-known and famous examples found within the American arcade game scene of the early 1980s.

As a grizzled Gen-X arcade gamer veteran of the early 1980s arcade scene, yes, I've seen my fair share of the American based arcades having external hack mods applied to the more popular arcade game cabs (i.e. -- Ms. Pac-Man, Time Pilot, Galaga, etc.) -- it was just a matter of letting the paying arcade customer/patron know ahead of time that a said arcade game cab had a hack added to it, especially back in the early 1980s era (otherwise, arcade gamers would naturally assume that said arcade cab being played was "stock and unmodified" to begin with).

It was, basically, breathing new life into the older arcade game cabs to bring in more $$$/profit at the end of the day for the arcade owner/manager/street location routes -- it was business as usual back in the early 1980s.
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PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Bassa-Bassa]

The idea behind mashing vs autofire is that it's more AUTHENTIC to mash if that's how a game was originally designed.

What about this heretic view: If a game was originally designed for mashing, wouldn't using autofire be cheating, plain and simple? I mean as a universal approach, as the orthodox way to play the game - if whichever communities decide that any form of hacking is allowed, it won't be cheating, but just for those, no matter if they're thousands now.

Basically, I think that once you're emulating or even playing a port and not on an arcade cabinet, a certain amount of authenticity is sacrificed and that's just the cost of being able to play these games in 2025.

How so? You can emulate or play a port and enforce the very same conditions as in the arcades. Unless the emulation or the port sucks, but that's another matter and not really relevant these days.

So with that being said, the only real standard that matters is what a given player finds fun and/or efficient.

A friend of mine always laments that online competition is pointless. If conditions aren't the same for everyone, what are they exactly comparing, he wonders. He'd say to your idea that one should just think about dedicated machines - arcade games with dedicated cabs are simply not contemplated in this regard if you aren't using the original cab/control panel. Thinking of non-dedicated machines differently is just a mistake - that they share with others a standard panel doesn't mean they're not intended for a particular control panel.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

If a game was originally designed for mashing, wouldn't using autofire be cheating, plain and simple?

It's not a question of cheating or not, rather it's a question of "playing without mashing is authentic but unfun and sucks ass" vs "mashing makes this might be technically cheating but it's a million times more fun and what kind of spaceship has pistols for guns??". Even in games where mashing is directly a part of the mechanics like Eight Forces, Blazing Star, or Thunder Blaster, they play way better with autofire.

I'm not saying every game should have wildly fast autofire, I find Gun Frontier and Darius Gaiden a bit silly at 30 hz and usually cap it to 10 or 12 hz, something humanly doable (albeit not sustainable) but that's a case by case thing with games.

if whichever communities decide that any form of hacking is allowed, it won't be cheating

Comparing apples to submarines. Hacking implies data execution not normally found or allowed in the game such as data/code injection, autofire is simply pressing the button really fast, something a human can already normally do with some degree of exertion, mapping multiple buttons to the shot button so you can strum them all, etc. Totally different situations, the slippery slope you fear isn't a thing.

arcade games with dedicated cabs are simply not contemplated in this regard if you aren't using the original cab/control panel

Very typical North American mindset; there was this weird belief in America that each game should have it's own special dedicated cab, which is part of the reason why you show people a candy cab and they don't quite get what it's for, something I've had happen a few times. It's not well understood that in Japan, dedicated cabs per game aren't really much of a thing, it's quite common to have multiple candy cabs that get PCBs rotated through them and you didn't expect only one specific type of cab to be associated with one game ever and have dedicated art, etc. Japanese arcade culture really adapted and changed in ways North America never really caught up to because it was obsessed with standup style cabs that are unbelievably uncomfortable to play on, bad for people with different heights, etc.

[Bassa-Bassa]

It's not a question of cheating or not, rather it's a question of "playing without mashing is authentic but unfun and sucks ass" vs "mashing makes this might be technically cheating but it's a million times more fun and what kind of spaceship has pistols for guns??". Even in games where mashing is directly a part of the mechanics like Eight Forces, Blazing Star, or Thunder Blaster, they play way better with autofire.

But that's arbitrariness at its full. And you don't let that get in when you're into the subject of competition, do you?

I'm not saying every game should have wildly fast autofire, I find Gun Frontier and Darius Gaiden a bit silly at 30 hz and usually cap it to 10 or 12 hz, something humanly doable (albeit not sustainable) but that's a case by case thing with games.

See? Arbitrariness at its full. "Don't forget to ask around which are the proper settings for every instance as the games' authors were generally dumb".

To make myself clear enough - I'm not defending mashing per se and indeed do think that some devs were kind of dumb if they thought the degree of mashing required for some of their games was justified, but what you people are doing here for years by universally advising the usage of any form of autofire is just beyond any rationale, and I doubt it's doing more good than harm.

Comparing apples to submarines. Hacking implies data execution not normally found or allowed in the game such as data/code injection, autofire is simply pressing the button really fast, something a human can already normally do with some degree of exertion, mapping multiple buttons to the shot button so you can strum them all, etc. Totally different situations, the slippery slope you fear isn't a thing.

Autofire can well go beyond the game's logic, and I'm sure you're perfectly aware. But anyway, I'd still like the term for this context - it's graphic like no other.

Very typical North American mindset; there was this weird belief in America that each game should have it's own special dedicated cab, which is part of the reason why you show people a candy cab and they don't quite get what it's for, something I've had happen a few times. It's not well understood that in Japan, dedicated cabs per game aren't really much of a thing, it's quite common to have multiple candy cabs that get PCBs rotated through them and you didn't expect only one specific type of cab to be associated with one game ever and have dedicated art, etc. Japanese arcade culture really adapted and changed in ways North America never really caught up to because it was obsessed with standup style cabs that are unbelievably uncomfortable to play on, bad for people with different heights, etc.

I'm not North American (neither my friend is) nor the point I tried to make had much to do with that. Just that every arcade game (from Japan, yeah) was designed for a specific control panel, no matter if shared with others or it's exclusive to it. Ideally they all would use dedicated cabs, but it obviously was more sane to just design games around a standard panel.

[Acid]

Clears only count if there's somebody with BO on your left, and somebody on your right who keeps trying to talk to you while eating potato chips.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Clears only count if there's somebody with BO on your left, and somebody on your right who keeps trying to talk to you while eating potato chips.

It was quite something to witness a skilled arcade gamer do his or her 1CC magic back in the 1990s. At least, you have two witnesses to vouch for such a 1CC stint.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[marus]

Having said that, there is absolutely a void to be filled here: a Hall Effect arcade stick. Simply replace the mechanical micro switches with the magnetic switches of a HE keyboard along with the buttons and it could be a game changing, revolutionary input method. Just imagine an arcade stick with adjustable actuation at the mm level. The raw power of HE with the old school vibe of a stick. Man. Someone is gonna figure it out eventually and make bank. I've already noticed some controllers with HE sticks and triggers, and even a new PXN controller with 8k polling. It's probably just a matter of time.

Suzo actually made an arcade stick somewhat like this called the Suzo Inductive. I never tried one myself but it's fully electronic and apparently hairpin sensitive. The downsides are they've been out of production for well over a decade and run for hundreds of dollars used. Plus they're massive and need a 5v line wired to them, so you can't just drop them into any old arcade stick. It's pretty cool tech though. I agree there'd be a market for this if someone were to produce a modern version.

If you're curious you can read about it here:
https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index. ... ic=42066.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=53719.0

[BareKnuckleRoo]

But that's arbitrariness at its full. And you don't let that get in when you're into the subject of competition, do you?

I mean, if you really want to be pedantic, all rules in any kind of game or sport are necessarily arbitrary to some extent. Who cares as long as it's fun? :p

[Faith]

I think silly to say autofire is not legitimate @_@"...

If I remember correct, Kiwi has a setup for Mushihimesama WR with like... 6 or 8 different shot keys?

It is crazy lol because in Mushi you use different autofire rate depending if you want to score (especially with counterbanking) or kill things fast... and then once you have all those autofire rates set up, you need to duplicate it because you need different autofire rates for when game is in normal speed vs when game is in slowdown when there are many bullets.

It is really crazy, and just shows the super skill needed even with autofire.

[neat_beans]

The only game I've ever felt conflicted about autofire is the Star Soldier remake on GC (and PS2 but never personally played that). The game has built-in autofire but, for whatever insane reason, the first bullet after pressing the shot button does more (double?) damage than all subsequent bullets, which means it's still optimal to mash a lot of the time.

On the other hand, when playing with a Hori Fighting Commander hooked up via SNES-to-GC converter and turbo enabled - i.e. simulating pressing the shot button rapidly and capitalising on the stronger first bullet - the bosses melt in seconds. You're clearly OP compared to what the game expects.

Dev oversight or genuine intention to include mashing as a way to up the skill ceiling? If the latter, it's a bizarre design choice for a game released in 2003. Would be interested to know if the same bug-or-feature is there in the 2005 PSP release since that got a few other updates.

[Lethe]

The idea of using some wacky input method so you can pretend it's not autofire is pretty funny. I'd like to remind everyone that the entrenched attitude about autofire here stems from a desire for parity with Japanese arcade scorekeeping. It's not "you people", it's "those people" and then "our people" (i.e. Plasmo) following on. As BKR has alluded to, the general rule is that the arms race stops short of altering the internals of the game. Whatever you personally think of that.

eSportsSportsSports keyboard manufacturers never seemed to catch on to the secret technique of simply minimizing the travel distance on the switches to limit the human error factor. (Almost like some kind of... microswitch button???) The actuation point on the K100 I usually play on is less than 1/3rd its total travel depth, what's the point of that if it's intended to be predominantly a gaming device? We seem to have skipped ahead to using analog sensors with dynamic floating sensitivity and forgotten that specializing the industrial design was an option. I guess "it's a flat keyboard" isn't a marketable innovation to the gaymers, plus the current approach involves making less adaptions to the cheap plastic components you're already producing.

I know the real purpose of super high polling rates is redundancy for the spaghetti hell that is the Windows pipeline, but 8kHz USB vs the now pretty common 4kHz is like 1 or 2 milliseconds worth of bandwidth. There are still people here who'll say ~50ms of lag is undetectable. There have been people here who have Hibachi-cleared X360 SDOJ with ~100ms internal lag. People are always buying this stuff and then proceeding to lose to a kid from rural Kazakhstan playing on a 2007 LCDTV because he's better at applying himself. And even so, it's so trivial these days to reach a point where the difference to non-lunatics becomes pure fetishism. I wonder how many people there are in the world who don't play their games enough for an extra 1 in 5000 dropped input frame to ever matter? How many people in this thread do? I'm not convinced I do.

In the context of old arcade games it's even more stupid since they can't detect inputs faster than their (fixed) refresh rate, meaning you can only limit the lag added by your devices, not go any faster. This is why "less than 1 frame input lag" was a claimed selling point for some exA revisions; impossible to accomplish without simulating the game logic multiple times in the span of an output sync, completely nonviable on the original hardware. Runahead emulation is a common way of approaching this concept, but is inelegant, expensive and flawed (hacking, to use that word correctly). It'd be so much better to get more real ports. That'd require capable engineers to materialize, and very few of those seem to be willing to work on video games.