Dreamcast LightGuns HORRIBLE ACCURACY

[Dochartaigh]

Based on my experiments, I am 95% sure it is a power related issue. It happens on the Time Crisis arcade guns even when connected to an official GC2 PCB. The TC arcade guns use the same sensor as the official GC2 so, the only difference is the distance between the sensor and the I/O pcb. I found the problem gets progressively worse as distance increases.

3rd party guns usually have the sensor on the pcb like the official GC2 so they must be getting a reduced signal strength in some other way. Given the age of the hardware being discussed, the most likely source of the problem is aging caps. Doesn't explain why official unmodded Namco guns remain accurate though.

.................

I definitely think age can add it's fair share of problems....but we're talking about a sample size of 3x DC's and 5x DC Light guns (2x brand new)....not that that's huge or anything, but I have to believe that with the sheer amount of combos of DC's + Light Guns that at least ONE of them would work properly (or at the very least work noticeably better than the other...but they seem to be roughly equal).... You can also see me in one video (think it was one I posted here), where I literally having the gun touch the glass of the TV (i.e. zero distance), so that shouldn't be a factor – and it STILL wouldn't hit that bottom right spot!

Also doesn't explain how EVERY other console I try (which I have at least 2x of each), with MULTIPLE light guns per-console (for NES, Saturn, PS1, PS2, OG Xbox) – most official but 3rd party too, ALL seem to work pretty perfectly (at least let me hit those smaller targets every single time because they don't seem to jump around nearly as much)....all except for DC. I would love to get to the bottom of it, but I just think it's how it is, with the DC being noticeably less accurate than all other consoles light-gun-wise.

I did notice most of your test CRTs are Sony. I've always had particularly bad results with lightguns on aperture grille displays. They seem to really thrive on slot mask.

Nah, the majority of these tests (first initial test every time at least), and the majority of my videos I posted was done on a Panasonic shadowmask widescreen multiformat CRT, DT-M3050W. Simply because that is my one non-PC-monitor CRT which will take RGBHV/VGA direct and not need an Extron RGB to merge sync, + also works with RGBS direct as well, + does 480i and 480p natively too. Only after that do I test on the other CRT's, which you're right are mostly Sony's. The one composite test I posted a video of was on a non-Sony as well, and I've tried that on multiple different non-Sony CRT's too.

[Classicgamer]

It has nothing to do with the display brand or the type of mask. I have tested (and still own) dozens of light guns. I tried them on 3 different types of arcade monitor (a 25" Billabs flat crt tri-sync, a 29" Mac-vision flat tri-sync and a 25" curved Wells Gardner cga only). I tried a 27" mid 90's Sony Trinitron, a 20" Ikegami curved crt video monitor and an Nec Xm2950.

Light guns that performed poorly did so on all monitors. Accurate lights guns were also unaffected by the change.

The only differences you find when changing displays (in terms of light gun performance) is related to brightness. If the screen is too dim, a light gun won't register the shot at all (a problem that is worse towards the edge of the screen). Poor quality light guns usually have crappy lenses which let through less light so you need to turn the brightness up more to make them register. Accuracy will still suck though. Regardless.

I find it easy to believe that Sega cheaped out on components for their Dreamcast peripherals. The company was in serious decline in the Dreamcast era and pulling out of the console market was likely already being discussed in meeting rooms. They also had a habit of releasing inferior hardware revisions like the Genesis 2 (yuck).

I find it similarly easy to believe that the Chinese 3rd party light guns also used crappy components. At the least, ones that were inferior to Namco's master piece or ones from Sega and Konami's golden age.

Whatever the secret sauce is for light gun accuracy, it's on the PCB and sensor.

As a point of common sense, in the CRT era, the Sony Trinitron was easily the most popular and common brand. Everyone had one, or knew somebody who did. There is no way anyone would sell a light gun that didn't work on Sony TV's without it being heavily discussed and complained about. It wouldn't be discovered by us.

[Syntax]

Wide screens are no good for lightguns.

As for Trinitrons I've had more than 1 that wouldnt let me shoot the bottom of the screen. They were all flat screens.

[Dochartaigh]

Wide screens are no good for lightguns.

As for Trinitrons I've had more than 1 that wouldnt let me shoot the bottom of the screen. They were all flat screens.

Widescreen MULTIFORMAT monitors, like the one I'm using, and the Sony BVM D24 and D32 for example, are perfectly fine for this. They run at the native 480p resolution, no up or downscaling (unlike most consumer widescreen CRT's), and keep the 4:3 aspect ratio of the original signal as too (well, unless you butcher it and manually make it stretch the image).

My main test monitor throughout all this has been a curved screen non-Sony CRT fyi – although it's been tested on a crapload of other CRT's as well (in both 480i and 480p).

[Classicgamer]

Poor coverage of a light gun at the edges of the screen is a brightness issue and it can usually be solved by turning the contrast way up and / or replacing the cheap plastic lens with a decent glass (or decent plastic) one. It happens on any CRT, including curved ones if the brightness is insufficient for the gun.

I have 3 flat CRT's including a Trinitron. All work with light guns there is no reason for a flat crt to matter. Light guns even work with crt rear projection and CRT front projection screens if they are bright enough. My 29" Mac Vision arcade monitor is the dimmest so it is very hard to make my 3rd party guns register at the edge. Official Namco guns work just fine though.

The issue of shaky, unstable and inconsistent crosshairs, i.e. Poor accuracy is different and is not solved with more brightness or changing screen brands or screen shape or anything like that.

For anyone trying to work with a dim CRT, I highly recommended Namco's new amplified sensor pcbs. They are made to work with aging dim screens. I have one in one of my Time Crisis arcade guns and they are super reliable. They are a noticeable step up over the old sensor boards and the ones found in a GC2 (in terms of registering every shot).

The issue with widescreen CRT's is that most of them upscale which stops light guns working. They wouldn't work with on an upscaled 4:3 crt either. I think that if you were able to track down one of Sony's first 16:9 SD only crts, I bet light guns would work (in 4:3 mode).

[maxtherabbit]

For anyone trying to work with a dim CRT, I highly recommended Namco's new amplified sensor pcbs. They are made to work with aging dim screens. I have one in one of my Time Crisis arcade guns and they are super reliable. They are a noticeable step up over the old sensor boards and the ones found in a GC2 (in terms of registering every shot).

where would you get one? are they sold as a component?

[Classicgamer]

For anyone trying to work with a dim CRT, I highly recommended Namco's new amplified sensor pcbs. They are made to work with aging dim screens. I have one in one of my Time Crisis arcade guns and they are super reliable. They are a noticeable step up over the old sensor boards and the ones found in a GC2 (in terms of registering every shot).

where would you get one? are they sold as a component?

Anywhere that sells Namco arcade parts. If you live in America then SuzoHapp and Betson carry them as well as Namco America's online parts store.

https://na.suzohapp.com/products/accessories/96-0454-00

Might be worth shopping around as Namco arcade parts seem to have insane pricing. Happ wants over $760 for a complete new TC gun. You can literally buy all the parts individually (from them) for half that.

I got my one by chance. It just happened to be in the latest TC arcade gun I bought. It seems to be the replacement for the old sensor board. It uses the same 3 wire connector as the original (sensor, signal, ground) which is great as it's easy to figure how to connect it to a GC2 board. But, it uses a new type of sensor. They describe it as "new inductorless sensor design".

I have zero idea if putting one in a Dreamcast gun would result in greater accuracy but it will fix any issues with shots not registering at the edges of the screen.

[MidOrFeed2015]

yeah DC accuracy is definitely messed

ive played so many light games in the passed month. elemental gear bolt on ps1, vampire night/ninja assault on ps2, hotd/mechanical violator/virtua cop on saturn, and confidential mission/death crimson ox on dc.

on saturn, ps1 and ps2 (its really a ps3 running on component cables), I have zero accuracy issues. it's not 100% accurate but it is damn playable and enjoyable

but the DC? damn its fucking bad. im using 2 starfire blasters. both of them act the exact same. there seems to be some invisible margin. the aiming crosshair vanishes when pointing near the edges but while still within the screen. this margin would be on all sides and quite a few pixels. not just that but when I aim at the screen (and I mean at the center), I sometimes see the crosshair vanish or spazz out and just keep aiming between where im pointing and way to the left. it makes these games unplayable. id like to try a different gun but i was just thinking what would the chances be that two guns act the exact same way?

[Classicgamer]

yeah DC accuracy is definitely messed

ive played so many light games in the passed month. elemental gear bolt on ps1, vampire night/ninja assault on ps2, hotd/mechanical violator/virtua cop on saturn, and confidential mission/death crimson ox on dc.

on saturn, ps1 and ps2 (its really a ps3 running on component cables), I have zero accuracy issues. it's not 100% accurate but it is damn playable and enjoyable

but the DC? damn its fucking bad. im using 2 starfire blasters. both of them act the exact same. there seems to be some invisible margin. the aiming crosshair vanishes when pointing near the edges but while still within the screen. this margin would be on all sides and quite a few pixels. not just that but when I aim at the screen (and I mean at the center), I sometimes see the crosshair vanish or spazz out and just keep aiming between where im pointing and way to the left. it makes these games unplayable. id like to try a different gun but i was just thinking what would the chances be that two guns act the exact same way?

When the light gun crosshairs don't reach the edge of the screen, it's usually a brightness issue (I.e. Monitor needs turning up) or the gun is too far from the screen. This problem is usually worse with 3rd party light guns as they have awful lenses. It's amazing any light at all gets through some of them...

There are a few other things that make it worse too. Larger CRT's with more geometry issues seem to perform worse at the edges. I use a 25", a 19" and a 29" crt. The 25" is the sweet spot for light guns.

Also, if the monitor needs degaussing then you sometimes find a dead zone in one or more of the corners that seems to get progressively worse.

I have put off buying a Dreamcast light gun because I'd rather not play at all than use a light gun that doesn't register shots reliably. I'd rather use my TC arcade gun (wired for guncon 2) on my PC with dreamcast and Naomi emulators. I will try an official Sega Japanese gun at some point though.

[Fatass]

I have two Japanese official dc guns and the crosshair always shows a slight horizontal jitter on a 27" screen. This is after I turned up the brightness. It isn't quite as bad as the example at the beginning of this thread but it's not (and never will be) rock solid like the guncon which I think is on a whole other level.

I still hav a rockin good time on hotd2 and confidential mission and can bullseye the faster zombies / justice shot at will. Perhaps I've just gotten too used to it?

What I found helps is if I go up to the screen and pretty much press the nozzle of my gun exactly over the calibration targets, then pull the trigger, all with the brightness turned up. then when I'm satisfied with the result, I manually turn the brightness of my crt down a little. It seems to improve things a bit in my setup, still not as good as a guncon 1 but alright.

Also the dc gun seems pretty sensitive to dirty/loose connections, I sometimes swab the connections on both it and my dc controller ports with a flattened Cotten bud dipped in isopropyl. At the moment I'm also propping an unused remote under the plug of my gun controller as the control ports on my dc seem to have become loose after 2 decades of use. Not doing this makes my dc gun alternate between being detected.

Btw I play the ntsc Japanese versions of hotd2 and confidential mission, both on Original gdroms another backed to a clone gdemu fwiw. I use two Japanese va1 dcs, one connected via scart rgb to a 480i crt and one via toro vga to an early 2000s crt with vga input.

[Juanchinas]

shaky

The same thing happens to me with the two original guns I have, one is pal and the other is japanese, I've tried 3 different CRT televisions. I'm sorry to write in such an old post but it won't let me send a private message to the OP.
Confidential Mission Agent Academy, the first test requires accuracy and is unbearable, the shots spread badly. On the calibration screen the reticle jitters left to right two centimeters.

Did you find any solution? I recently bought a pistol (the second one) and the same thing happens to it, I don't know whether to return it or keep it and quit.

[Dochartaigh]

shaky

The same thing happens to me with the two original guns I have, one is pal and the other is japanese, I've tried 3 different CRT televisions. I'm sorry to write in such an old post but it won't let me send a private message to the OP.
Confidential Mission Agent Academy, the first test requires accuracy and is unbearable, the shots spread badly. On the calibration screen the reticle jitters left to right two centimeters.

Did you find any solution? I recently bought a pistol (the second one) and the same thing happens to it, I don't know whether to return it or keep it and quit.

Old topic, so I've forgotten much that I once knew... but in my pretty comprehensive testing back then, with a TON of guns, consoles, and CRT's (and I've owned/tested even more in the last ~6 years since I posted this, getting new DC's and guns in trades and such, and way more CRT's as well, newer DC RGB cables, etc.), I've still found NO solution to the shaky in-accurate light gun problem the Dreamcast has. I sincerely think this is simply how it is, and that age has nothing to do with it either (I believe even back in the day when everything was brand new, they were exactly like this as well).

[Syntax]

The old NAMCO arcade guns have a 100n cap fit close to the legs of the optic sensor, without it the crosshair will jitter like mad.
Maybe DC needs a bit stronger decoupling caps on the sensor?
IDK I think it also might have something to do with DC being the only system that can do lightgun games on a VGA CRT and CRT which could cause compromised code.

[Juanchinas]

shaky

The same thing happens to me with the two original guns I have, one is pal and the other is japanese, I've tried 3 different CRT televisions. I'm sorry to write in such an old post but it won't let me send a private message to the OP.
Confidential Mission Agent Academy, the first test requires accuracy and is unbearable, the shots spread badly. On the calibration screen the reticle jitters left to right two centimeters.

Did you find any solution? I recently bought a pistol (the second one) and the same thing happens to it, I don't know whether to return it or keep it and quit.

Old topic, so I've forgotten much that I once knew... but in my pretty comprehensive testing back then, with a TON of guns, consoles, and CRT's (and I've owned/tested even more in the last ~6 years since I posted this, getting new DC's and guns in trades and such, and way more CRT's as well, newer DC RGB cables, etc.), I've still found NO solution to the shaky in-accurate light gun problem the Dreamcast has. I sincerely think this is simply how it is, and that age has nothing to do with it either (I believe even back in the day when everything was brand new, they were exactly like this as well).

Thanks for the answer. After many tests with both pistols, which perform equally poor, with that shaky reticle on the calibration screen, I see that the angle of fire and the distance from the screen affect the accuracy. Shooting at a distant wall in Confidential Mission, if I am facing and close to the screen, the result is maximum spread. However, shots are much more grouped if I'm far away from the screen and at a slightly side angle. This makes it much more accurate and playable (at least in a 29" screen).

EDIT: After testing the Saturn official gun with the first Vitrtua Cop, I have to say that the result is very similar to that of the Dreamcast guns. Both are far from the accuracy of Namco's on Playstation.

[yyr]

Wow, I'm glad that I found this. I thought I was going crazy or just had really bad luck, but it's just that I have the same situation as many of you.

I don't have much to add to the conversation except that if you're looking to enjoy Confidential Mission, it is playable with the Dreamcast mouse. It doesn't quite feel the same, of course, but if you're good with a mouse, the experience can be similar. Reloading is accomplished by right-clicking.

[Derf]

I'm not a lightgun aficionado, but I have two of the Madcatz guns that I bought pretty much exactly when HOTD2 was released and I never had any issues with them.

I opened up 2x of mine (3rd my friend has) which seem to be identical to each other, and the board does seem to be different than yours (the writing at least), and only 2 legs on the diode:

https://i.imgur.com/ZyDMhBM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AtLLvM6.jpg

Whatever the secret sauce is for light gun accuracy, it's on the PCB and sensor.

Between this thread and this one (https://www.dreamcast-talk.com/forum/vi ... 75#p196775), I'm convinced that it's the sensor board that was updated in the later MadCatz light gun design that might fix the issue. Perhaps also the fix laid out below as well in conjunction would help:

There 2 or more revisions of the Madcatz lightgun pcb.
...
This is the good board for reference.

Spoiler

I'm working on a recreation of the better sensor PCB. I was able to get most of it sketched out by some images in the thread I linked, but I don't have a "good board" in hand. Would someone with a good working MadCatz gun be able to tell me the numbers on top of R4 and on C5?

It's a bit hard to see some of the traces in the pictures so I also need to know what R4/R6 connect to and for someone to follow the traces from each pin of the chip to double check my work. I've got extra parts, so I can build someone one for free in exchange for helping me out if it turns out well.



Aging of the photodiode might also be a factor.

[Dochartaigh]

Between this thread and this one (https://www.dreamcast-talk.com/forum/vi ... 75#p196775), I'm convinced that it's the sensor board that was updated in the later MadCatz light gun design that might fix the issue.

Thanks for posting all that info. I'm currently on my phone, but has this problem/fix also been tried Interact Starfire Lightblaster, and the official Japan Dreamcast light gun I tried as well? Because both of those (and the 3x other ones I initially mentioned) all seem to have the same bad accuracy issue.

[Derf]

Thanks for posting all that info. I'm currently on my phone, but has this problem/fix also been tried Interact Starfire Lightblaster, and the official Japan Dreamcast light gun I tried as well? Because both of those (and the 3x other ones I initially mentioned) all seem to have the same bad accuracy issue.

This would be a fix to essentially upgrade a MadCatz V1 gun to a V2. It may be layers of issues, but I'm going to do some extensive testing (IC sensor board, main board mod, replacing aging diode, 2 vs 3 leg diode), and take notes as I work through them and we can see if fixes would also apply to the other light guns.

[Sweatlord_STG]

I have The House of the Dead 2, Virtua Cop 2, and Confidential Mission, and I can't play any of them because of the non-existing accuracy. I have tried everything and countless combinations of the variables. Different TVs (yes I know it must be CRT and non-100Hz, I grew up with that stuff), consoles, RGB-Scart, VGA, different guns, dark room, bright room, turn up the brightness, calibration, etc.

Thanks for posting all that info. I'm currently on my phone, but has this problem/fix also been tried Interact Starfire Lightblaster, and the official Japan Dreamcast light gun I tried as well? Because both of those (and the 3x other ones I initially mentioned) all seem to have the same bad accuracy issue.

This would be a fix to essentially upgrade a MadCatz V1 gun to a V2. It may be layers of issues, but I'm going to do some extensive testing (IC sensor board, main board mod, replacing aging diode, 2 vs 3 leg diode), and take notes as I work through them and we can see if fixes would also apply to the other light guns.

Have you already found out more, for instance whether the guns by SEGA can be fixed?

[Derf]

Have you already found out more, for instance whether the guns by SEGA can be fixed?

I just got all I need for a MadCatz gun fix, and am ordering PCBs. If it works properly, I'll explore if it's applicable to SEGA guns.

[Sweatlord_STG]

Have you already found out more, for instance whether the guns by SEGA can be fixed?

I just got all I need for a MadCatz gun fix, and am ordering PCBs. If it works properly, I'll explore if it's applicable to SEGA guns.

Awesome! Would be great to finally be able to play these games

[D]

That would indeed be awesome to fix the DC guns.
Also for the sake of the Atomiswave light gun games!

[Frosal]

I just got the official Japanese light gun. Setup is as follows: PAL Dreamcast, GDEmu clone, VGA box from Retro Honey Badger (really good VGA box by the way), Iiyama Vision Master Pro 510 (I wouldn't use a 22" for 480p personally, it was just the most readily accessible monitor for testing if the gun actually worked).

In House of the Dead 2, it would always seem to fire the first shot in the upper left corner, so I'd get past the first stage of calibration, but then it would be impossible to shoot the bottom right one, so I'd just get stuck at the screen unless I pulled the cord. Indeed, shooting did absolutely nothing after the first shot. In the training stage, when firing up the game for the first time, it would shoot either in the upper right or left and then nothing after that. The gun would just be detected off screen and reload I guess.

I couldn't even kill the first zombie. Tried the Japanese version, same issue, NTSC one doesn't work because of the region lock and I'm too lazy to patch it.

Tried Virtua Cop 2, same issue. Confidential Mission, same issue. Tried turning the brightness and contrast up, no dice (the monitor's barely used). Then I tried Vision Master Pro 514 and it works (which by the way, was used way more from my subjective observations). I turned the light on between testing, so maybe that helped.

At the calibration screen, it would work at about 70:70 brightness:contrast. In the training stage 1 (outside, bright area), it would work with 80:80. In training stage 2 (inside of the house, dark), I had to crank it up to 92:92. At calibration stage, the sights jitters horribly, though maybe that's normal. In the actual game, it seemed somewhat accurate, I could blow off zombie heads pretty consistently.

In Confidential Mission, the aim is off by like an inch to the left, really noticeable in the training mission where you have to shoot the hands (and also the same jitter on calibration screen is present). Doing justice shots in Virtua Cop works a little bit better but still not perfect. Sometimes it would shoot where I pointed, at other times, it'd be way off.

When I passed the calibration and turned the brightness/contrast down in House of the Dead 2, it would just say "gun off screen", so it's definitely a brightness/contrast issue.

I also got the Japanese Virtua Gun for Sega Saturn and it works mostly fine on a basically NOS PVM-14M2 with brightness set to ~25% and contrast at about ~40-45% and that was in a completely dark room. Unfortunately, I don't have any composite/s-video/RGB cables for the Dreamcast to test the Dreamcast gun on my PVMs.