Why shmups are such a niche genre

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I read that [Tales of Destiny Remake] is quite different from the original... so it's not a perfect Remake

The game with the best combat in the series isn't exactly like the clunkier PS1 version therefore it's imperfect? Talk about impossibly high standards.

[Steven]

I still find it amusing that the PS1 version of Tales of Destiny is somehow even more awkward and clunky than SFC Phantasia. They took one of the absolute worst games in the series at that point in time and remade it as the best one and it's still the best one. The difference is unbelievable. It's the best remake ever created.

Is a small aesthetic improvement considered a Remake? and if it is IDENTICAL to the original, is it a remake? And if it has changes, is it a Reboot or Remake? I do not know
However, this was not the focus of the topic

In the case of Sonic CD it's a complete rebuild of the game in a completely different engine with completely different code that was made without the original source code. The art is mostly the same (plus Tails), the music is the same, but everything else is a complete recreation from nothing other than really good knowledge of the game. I don't know if the source code for the original still exists, as Sega reportedly lost at least some source code some time ago.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Fortunately ToD PS1 was the last of the "bad" Tales games in terms of game design, with the rest generally being much better mechanically. The fact that you could only play as other characters by plugging into P2 and using the second player was very odd. Legendia's no multiplayer and Symphonia GC's "camera won't pan out in multiplayer" were also a bit ick, but that's only re: cooperative play.

[m.sniffles.esq]

It's kinda depressing that you apparently still keep up with your abusive old boss, though

I like JJ...
I mean, I'm not currently doing anything that he would be any 'connection' for (even if I was, I'm not sure I would use him because lord knows what he would say). Just because someone is a blowhard/curmudgeon doesn't mean they're abusive. He could have <i>easily</i> got an intern looking to start their big animation career to shoot cels/tape film together. Yet he paid someone to do it. I think that speaks WAY more to what kind of person he is than a grumpy demeanor.

(sorry, I realize this is like two weeks old. But I just saw it)

[Randorama]

I didn't know of the existence of this thread and I stumbled upon it by chance. So, I think that I can answer a 14-years old question via a simple answer:

Because shmups Suck.

Nobody plays this kind of game for fun; shmup players are just self-administering their due and just punishment for the horrendous sins they commit day in, day out.

End of debate, and you can thank me later for finally showing you the one and only truth.

[The_Fix]

Because people are pussies and don't want to put in the work needed to get to that sweet sweet 1cc ambrosia.

[neorichieb1971]

Shmups are a product of their time. It is the type of game that fit in the box at the right time and was part of the evolution in the 8bit 16bit era. Once you filled the screen with as much shmupage as possible there wasn't anything left to prove in the genre. Other genres had a higher ceiling of creativity in the late 90's.

Of course, some folk were growing up with it, wanted to stay with it, but now we are the minority. Of course, a few newcomers came along but no longer make up the masses.

Apart from a few switch releases I cannot remember a shmup for a modern day console that I have bought.

[MJR]

I can't be bothered to read 45+ pages of opinions - Did anyone ever bother to debunk the myth that shmups "didn't want to cater to players who want hour-long cutscenes"

Because it's a myth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9BicddeXdg

[cody]

The ridiculous popularity of Vampire Survivors seems like an opportunity for cross-pollinating some of those ideas with shmups.
Gunfield is one of the few examples I'm aware of, surprised there aren't more given how many VS clones popped up.

[Light1000]

I'd like to remind you all that shmups were never really a "popular" genre to begin with, or at least not for very long. The highest selling shmup ever, from my research, is the NES port of Xevious with 1.5 million sales. Next up are the NES ports of Gradius and Twinbee with only 1 million each, and just 2 years after that, Famitsu reported that the NES port of Gradius II only sold a measly 100k. For Gradius III on the Super Nintendo, just 61k. (these are JP only of course, but shmups were the most popular in Japan so there's not too much margin of error involved) As a general rule, 100k is the highest selling that you can expect from most shmups, even 30 years ago, with any higher being a big exception. That's not what popularity looks like...
The highest selling shmups, aside from those previously mentioned, are as follows:
Deathsmiles 360 - 280k across all regions
Parodius Deluxe Pack PSX - 280k (JP)
Twinbee 3 FC - 238k (JP)
Rayforce Saturn - 225k (JP)
Parodius Deluxe Pack Saturn - 180k (JP)
Moero Twinbee FC - 173k (JP)
More instances of the "100k rule" in action:
Pop 'n Twinbee SFC - 147k
Raystorm PSX - 124k
Raiden Project PS1 - 120k
Gokujou Parodius SFC - 111k
Detanna Twinbee Deluxe Pack Saturn - 86k
Gradius 3+4 PS2 - 84k
Salamander FC - 90k
Einhander - 78k
Astebreed Steam Port - 99k
Crimzon Clover WI Steam - 78k
Ikaruga Steam Port - 128k
Super R-Type - 114k
R-Type Final - 72k
Super Darius - 112k
Darius Gaiden Saturn - 70k
Thunder Force II MD - 71k
Thunder Force III - 69k
Tatsujin MD - 88k

Sources:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210102104 ... df#page=72
https://web.archive.org/web/20190801030 ... inum.shtml
https://nichebarrier.com/ (this site collects famitsu sales reports)
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/ ... -of-games/ (csv included in article)

[Steven]

I think FC/NES Tiger-Heli is also in the 1 million+ range.

[Faith]

Nobody plays this kind of game for fun; shmup players are just self-administering their due and just punishment for the horrendous sins they commit day in, day out.

Haha! You joke, but in many ways... I do not like myself very much... and in some ways STG's are my way of torturing myself.

But that does not mean I cannot have fun doing it... sometimes.

Also, the 1CC high from STG's... I have yet to find somewhere else where I can get that.

Sometimes after a very difficult clear, it does make me hate myself a bit less and makes my mood better... for how long really depends, but sometimes can be weeks.

[Sima Tuna]

Some people climb mountains.

Some people 1cc video games.

[jehu]

Some people work an honest 9 to 5, slowly chip away at their mortgage, come home to a gaggle of children and loving wife, devote their precious few night hours to maintaining the order of their house, and dream of a fulfilling retirement at the end of it all.

And some people 1cc video games.

[Randorama]

Nobody plays this kind of game for fun; shmup players are just self-administering their due and just punishment for the horrendous sins they commit day in, day out.

Haha! You joke

Oh no, why should I? Though it would be more correct to say that I joked, since the post is almost one year old.

And the thread is still absolutely, despairingly terrible after 15 years or so. Then again, 'tis the time for necro-bumps of the worst threads around, I guess.

Eugh, holidays; eugh, summer.

[Turok]

Quickly made an account to give my two cents as a younger player, while most of my childhood was still playing genesis and arcade games, I grew up in a weird spot between old and new games.

Hear me out if you will.

I think the modernization that shooters need is something simple, and not a huge shift that will alienate old players. I just finished playing Namco's Dragon Spirit and Dragon Saber and it gave me an idea.

In Dragon Saber the default settings has the game setup that, unlike the previous game Spirit, if you get hit once you die. There are however DIP switch settings that can re-enable hit points.

If we were to take this into a more modern sense I think that modern shooters should still be developed and balanced around one-hit deaths and memorization, but also include a mode that allows more casual players to take a few hits.

And if you want to keep competitive integrity then when playing the mode with hit points the score is disabled, since most casuals probably won't care about score and just want to play the cool shooter.

This could also tempt the casual to try and reach a highscore and maybe push them to trying the harder difficulty mode. I don't think there needs to be any 90's "try again on such and such," messaging. The push for the player to WANT to get better should be natural.

Example, I'm pushing for a 1cc run in Saber and with each victory I reduce my staring hitpoints because I want the challenge.

I believe a system as simple as that would definitely help bring in more casual audiences. While still maintaining the white knuckle memorization skills that old players love.

[Sima Tuna]

I agree and I'm strongly in favor of better novice modes. I believe I said earlier in the thread that devs could even play the trick of naming the novice mode "normal" and the actual normal mode "hard," with a further "very hard" and "ultra" mode to test the dedicated shmups farmers. The core gameplay of shmups as a genre is really solid and that has always been the strong point of the genre. I think shmups scare people off by seeming more unfriendly than they are. Kind of like rhythm games... Although there are definitely some rhythm games that filtered me out pretty fast.

[Faith]

but also include a mode that allows more casual players to take a few hits.

I think I disagree with anything to do with e.g. HP bar. Novice users need to get used to extends.

But... there are still ways to manage this.

So e.g. for Crimzon Clover, on Novice... you get a lot of extends since bosses now also drop them when you kill them. For other games e.g. Gunvein, the score to get extends is lowered on the easiest difficulty (so normally you need 600,000 pts for extend, but on Mild it is changed to every 300,000 (no cap)).

Also, back to Crimzon Clover... for Arrange you also have a Shield you can charge... and this allows you to take a lot more hits, but you are still penalized.

Because... the Shield is part of an upgrade bar where you can e.g. change formation, or add more options, and even to use Break. So, if you keep losing shield, it means you also miss out on those upgrades. So I think there are many ways of doing this, without giving a HP bar. I will always not like the idea of a HP bar in STG... it is just not our style... and we don't want to form wrong expectations at the start. Also, many STG have very generous (some even unlimited) Continue, so in a way, I don't see a problem with that too. Because that teaches Novice players that yes, you can do that... but you pay the price with the score being reset. So, keep playing, keep getting better, keep using less continues... until you can finally 1CC.

Even for me, for a new STG I play... usually my first goal is to 3CC or better. Because... while I get better at earlier stages, it allows me to get familiar with later stages.

devs could even play the trick of naming the novice mode "normal" and the actual normal mode "hard," with a further "very hard" and "ultra" mode to test the dedicated shmups farmers.

Blue Revolver does this!~ Normal is the lowest (easy) mode, then Hyper is a bit like a medium-hard I guess and Parallel is Ultra.

[AGermanArtist]

I agree and I'm strongly in favor of better novice modes. I believe I said earlier in the thread that devs could even play the trick of naming the novice mode "normal" and the actual normal mode "hard," with a further "very hard" and "ultra" mode to test the dedicated shmups farmers. The core gameplay of shmups as a genre is really solid and that has always been the strong point of the genre. I think shmups scare people off by seeming more unfriendly than they are.

Been saying this for years. Everyone gets an ego rub. If I was releasing a STG it's what I'd do. Label Easy - Normal and label Normal - Turbo mofo mode.
It's the only problem I have with M2's Shot Triggers. No one wants to see SUPER EASY MODE in the top left of their screen. There's no way I'm playing Same!Same!Same! arcade mode, sorry. That's far too punishing.

[Ixmucane2]

If we were to take this into a more modern sense I think that modern shooters should still be developed and balanced around one-hit deaths and memorization, but also include a mode that allows more casual players to take a few hits.

And if you want to keep competitive integrity then when playing the mode with hit points the score is disabled, since most casuals probably won't care about score and just want to play the cool shooter.

This could also tempt the casual to try and reach a highscore and maybe push them to trying the harder difficulty mode.

It's a less convoluted counterpart of the choice between "credit feeding" to push through to the end vs. training to perform well in traditional arcade games.

Rather than disabling score in the beginner mode and reserving it for the advanced mode, the game could use it as a carrot: if it's obvious that an interesting scoring system is in place, and that dying ruins score (e.g. every continue halves the current score with lots of fanfare), players are likely to care about their hard-earned score and learn to die less; a special beginner mode might not even be needed, as a leaderboard can record (and segregate entries by) the number of deaths along with stage reached, difficulty setting, path etc.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

If we were to take this into a more modern sense I think that modern shooters should still be developed and balanced around one-hit deaths and memorization, but also include a mode that allows more casual players to take a few hits.

And if you want to keep competitive integrity then when playing the mode with hit points the score is disabled, since most casuals probably won't care about score and just want to play the cool shooter.

This could also tempt the casual to try and reach a highscore and maybe push them to trying the harder difficulty mode.

It's a less convoluted counterpart of the choice between "credit feeding" to push through to the end vs. training to perform well in traditional arcade games.

Rather than disabling score in the beginner mode and reserving it for the advanced mode, the game could use it as a carrot: if it's obvious that an interesting scoring system is in place, and that dying ruins score (e.g. every continue halves the current score with lots of fanfare), players are likely to care about their hard-earned score and learn to die less; a special beginner mode might not even be needed, as a leaderboard can record (and segregate entries by) the number of deaths along with stage reached, difficulty setting, path etc.

Back in the late 1980s as a GenX arcade gamer, if you wanted to master said arcade stg title, it was a matter of spending real money & learning how to master it in the shortest time possible (without spending too much in the process which was "extra incentive alone" to play at your best with the current credit being played).

Of course, playing arcade stgs back in the 1980s was an expensive hobby/endeavor to begin with (as it forced the arcade gamer to master said arcade game quicker) -- the local arcade owner or street location operator wouldn't earn as much per play (jack up/increase the game difficulty to offset the occasional arcade wizards that do come along as it was a possibility/eventuality to be expected -- it's business as usual within that particular profession/line of work) if the arcade gamer mastering said arcade game (which meant not spending as much money in the end to play it at such a high level of mastery/expertise).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[AGermanArtist]

Through MAME I found out that the pool hall I used to hang out in as a kid in the 80's had all their games set to Easy.

[Lemnear]

After two years on the forum, and after discovering the arcade scene (shmups, of course), I have the feeling that new developers aren't up to the level of the greats of the past, and sometimes even the legends of the past can't produce the masterpieces they once did (Granzella isn't on the level of the original Irem, for example). Furthermore, many of the new shmup developers lack the knowledge necessary to create a high-profile game (Cygni is a case in point). As I once said, creating quality shmups is a lost art. There are small exceptions, like M2, but unfortunately M2 can't be the only bastion, also because no matter how good they are, they can't physically cover all the various facets of the genre, and they're also particularly slow.

What many companies do today is essentially re-release restorations of masterpieces already known to the community (with mixed results), and obviously they're mostly targeting those who already know those games. I doubt anyone who's never heard of Toaplan will buy the recent collections, and even less likely they'll inquire about M2's Shot Triggers.

There's also a lot to say about the perspective of "new gamers." New gamers don't really spend money on video games; they're used to free games or Game Pass, perhaps with microtransactions that they often don't even buy, so paying $30 for a "little game" with a short lifespan is a waste of money for them.
They want time-consuming games that they can get lost in even if the actual gameplay is insignificant, or games with a strong multiplayer component, because for many of them, online is everything, and all of this is even more appealing if the graphics are good.

There's a misconception about pixel graphics, for example. Perhaps it's the fault of the many indie games that use them, which is why they're labeled "indie," meaning something that usually costs less than a AAA game. Spending double or triple the amount of an indie game for a game that lasts 15-30 minutes and isn't even a roguelike/rougelite becomes even less convincing.

Obviously, some shmup community bubbles haven't benefited the genre. The toxic elitism of the Electric Underground circle only further alienates potential new players (saying "everyone doesn't understand shit" is never a good way to convince anyone of anything). On the other hand, Shmup Junkie or HazyLevels are much more cheerful and less critical of many things.
I mean, if you want to convince new players to try shmups, don't come forward with extreme technicalities, but rather emphasize how intense and fun they can be as an experience.

The difference between fun and entertainment should be emphasized culturally in gaming.

EDIT: For example, I find that Ghost Blade HD's system of giving a low initial credit but increasing it with each game over is a great incentive for newcomers to try the game again and eventually complete it (the game doesn't have infinite credits, for example).
Retrying to unlock more credits also helps you learn the game itself, and M2's arrangements are another excellent example of how to encourage someone to be less afraid of a notoriously difficult genre, while retaining all its key features.

[Turok]

On mobile and still learning this site (not a regular forum user) Those are some great points Faith!

And yeah, I can see not wanting to give people the wrong impression that all STGs are going to have HP.

Reminds me even of Xevious Resurrection (sadly delisted and lost) because it has a shield system where you would get a small shield meter and could activate it briefly to protect yourself.

Extends are another option I didn't think of. Even myself when trying a new shmup I'll usually set the point thresholds for extends lower if the game allows for it.

There's some other things I want to respond to but I'll have to do so later.

Great insight all around!

[Light1000]

Obviously, some shmup community bubbles haven't benefited the genre. The toxic elitism of the Electric Underground circle only further alienates potential new players (saying "everyone doesn't understand shit" is never a good way to convince anyone of anything). On the other hand, Shmup Junkie or HazyLevels are much more cheerful and less critical of many things.
I mean, if you want to convince new players to try shmups, don't come forward with extreme technicalities, but rather emphasize how intense and fun they can be as an experience.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on what exactly you mean here? I don't quite understand...
With relation to Electric Underground, I don't really get how you're sensing elitism from him. The topic of getting beginners into shmups is a pretty common focus on his channel, for example.

[Faith]

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on what exactly you mean here? I don't quite understand...
With relation to Electric Underground, I don't really get how you're sensing elitism from him. The topic of getting beginners into shmups is a pretty common focus on his channel, for example.

I think Electric Underground can have some... very strong opinions.

But, for me, I never personally saw it as "elitist" and I think he is just very, very passionate about STG and his idea of what is a perfect STG.

For me, I am always interested in what he has to say. Even if I don't always agree, I still enjoy his video.

My feeling is that... our community is not big. I don't think we should split it, so whatever content I watch, it is up to me whether or not I agree or not; but I respect other opinions.

[Lemnear]

Obviously, some shmup community bubbles haven't benefited the genre. The toxic elitism of the Electric Underground circle only further alienates potential new players (saying "everyone doesn't understand shit" is never a good way to convince anyone of anything). On the other hand, Shmup Junkie or HazyLevels are much more cheerful and less critical of many things.
I mean, if you want to convince new players to try shmups, don't come forward with extreme technicalities, but rather emphasize how intense and fun they can be as an experience.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on what exactly you mean here? I don't quite understand...
With relation to Electric Underground, I don't really get how you're sensing elitism from him. The topic of getting beginners into shmups is a pretty common focus on his channel, for example.

For him, his tastes are impeccable and beyond question, as well as the only true truth... there's this messianic presumption of knowing better than the developers themselves what's right and wrong for a game.
Consequently, his most ardent followers adopt this same line of thinking, where right and wrong in game design are well-defined and indisputable.
Perhaps a more recent trend is his to slam any new development in the name of his favorite games or find merits that don't exist in said games. There's a difference between saying "I don't like this" and "this is wrong".
And to think that I initially liked his videos.

He has a diametrically opposed approach to Shmup Junkie, who instead highlights the best aspects of the games he considers, and to do so, he doesn't need to constantly name other titles he deems "inferior" or point out "supposed flaws" in other games.

[AGermanArtist]

I have lots of time for Mark and I can see why he would be a devisive chatacter. It's one of the reasons why I like him. Despite that, I do think he can be quite myopic at times and lacks objectivity. He can be very quick to dismiss something simply because it's not the same as the version he's invested in. His RE4 remake review for example or his review of Ghosts 'nGoblins Resurrection, wherein the latter he took issue with its randomness re weapons, missing the point of the original game where this randomness is part of the difficulty and is specifically aimed at experienced players, and with RE4 where he was critical of the developers for introducing parrying and some mild stealth elements in the gameplay - at the time of the original's release, Mikami featured in an interview/video that I unfortunately can't find where he recomended that "advanced players" try to parry melee projectiles with the knife or by shooting them, something which was later expanded upon with the remake. Mikami later went on to produce The Evil Within series, which featured mild stealth elements in its gameplay, so I think the RE4 team can be forgiven for following suit.

[AGermanArtist]

I find the Reddit amusing. The posts often start with "What does Mark think about..."

MARK TELL ME WAHT TO THINK

[Steven]

There's a reason that I call that guy either Elitist Underground or Pretentious Underground, depending on how I feel at the moment.