Looking back at Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga

[xEbb1993x]

Are they really worth being crowned as "best of all time"? Because there have been some gems before and after. Especially after having played and beaten both. What games do you think were crowned as the best before those two came along?

[XoPachi]

I find Ikaruga somewhat overrated and kind of treat it as a bit of a litmus test as smarmy as that is. Don't get me wrong. It's an excellent game worthy of acclaim. It's one of the polygonal STG's that sets a visual bar that I think still has been matched by very few. It's got some of the most interesting and timeless presentation that I actually think couldn't be top with pixel art. I love 3D Treasure graphics and the music is absurdly good. Yasushi Suzuki's artwork was also.....unnecessarily good. Like holy shit. Beautiful gallery.

But, I feel like usually the kind of praise people give it as "the best shmup ever" comes from people that are seriously unfamiliar with the genre and are easily impressed by instantly identifiable novelty, i.e. the polarity mechanic. The game is hard and very elegant. It's also probably one of the most fun games as a spectator, but it's got some odd balance even when scoring on occasion. The final stage scoring and surviving is an absolute cakewalk and scoring itself, at least to me, feels a little one note. There's little things you can do but, it is extremely memorization based. And you know, that's fine. I don't really think the game's doing anything terribly wrong, but there's a lot more flexible and mechanically interesting games before it I think that got wildly overlooked when Ikaruga was still relevant. I do give it credit for being possible to complete pacifist and the game acknowledges it, so that's a lot of fun to figure out.

I can't speak on Silvergun much. I cleared Ikaruga but Silvergun is something else. lol

[PC Engine Fan X!]

The Sega Titan ST-V cart of Radiant Silvergun is the "meaner 'n' leaner" version that doesn't have the cool anime cutscenes shown on the Sega Saturn CD-Rom disc version of RSG (whereas the SS RSG disc has the option to play either the SS version with cutscenes or the original arcade ST-V version). How cool is that?

You can have the Sega arcade ST-V motherboard output in true stereo sound with any ST-V cart including an RSG ST-V cart as well -- it's quite epic, especially if running on a candy cab seup! The difficulty factor is quite high, especially on the very final portion fighting the "Ultraman-like" final boss.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Sumez]

Are they really worth being crowned as "best of all time"?

I don't think Ikaruga really deserves the hate it tends to be getting from the STG community, it's a good game. But generally I'm pretty sure the only people who ever crowned Ikaruga "best of all time" are people who typically don't otherwise engage much with the genre.


Not really an authority on the subject, but this list is always a good indication of community favorites:
viewtopic.php?t=73135

[AGermanArtist]

I like them. I like that they exist and I like to play a few credits on both occasionally, but, for me they lack a certain level of instant gratification I expect from an arcade shooter experience. One of the reasons why I love playing shooters is because I once had a problem with fruit/slot machnines and shooters with all the numbers on screen and the coin/gold sucking seems to handle that need for lots of visual/audio stimulus I once got from playing those. It's likely why I love Crimzon Clover so much. That game just gives it to you.

[xEbb1993x]

What about games like Axelay, Silpheed (Sega CD), Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire, and Soukyugurentai? Were they crowned as the best before Radiant Silvergun came along?

[Faith]

It's likely why I love Crimzon Clover so much. That game just gives it to you.

Haha I took this screenshot some time ago that perfectly illustrates this :p

Spoiler

[AGermanArtist]

Jackpot

[Sumez]

What about games like Axelay, Silpheed (Sega CD), Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire, and Soukyugurentai? Were they crowned as the best before Radiant Silvergun came along?

[ryu]

I'm having a hard time picturing an alternate universe in which people argue that Axelay is the best shmup of all time. lol

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Considering that Hudson Soft's swansong PC Engine stg title by the name of Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire being released on December 31st, 1995, (as an Arcade CD-Rom2 based game requiring the necessary Arcade Card Duo or Arcade Card Pro just to boot up/run it properly if played on a real PC Engine Duo/Duo-R/Duo-RX console setup or with a SuperGrafx console with an Super CD-Rom2 Interface add-on with the on-board 16 megabits of RAM upgrade) it's a both a technical masterpiece + novel use of CG-rendered sprites (for the very first & only time in this particular instance) push this particular PCE stg into the stratosphere when no PCE game has gone before.

Despite not having built-in support with the PCE's Backup Ram functionality to save both the player's high scores and high score initials (they both disappear upon the PCE Duo being powered down for the night) when it could've been easily implemented from the "get-go" is a downright disappointment as is -- it is what it is. The gameplay is quite solid and playing it with either a PCE-based Micomsoft "XE-1 Pro HE" or Hori "Fighting Stick PC" (with it's awesome rare & OOP {out of production} "arcade-grade" spec Seimitsu LS-33 joystick factory installed for a pure unadulterated 100% arcade gaming experience) arcade stick setup gives GFDS, it that unmistakable "arcade stg vibe/feel" going on through-out the entire game from initial start to eventual conclusion is truly a well-noted highlight/gem within the hard-core underground PCE/TG-16 gaming cult indeed.

Playing GFDS on a USA region TTI Turbo Duo console setup with an NEC Arcade Card Duo upgrade add-on + either a boxy Hu-Card convertor or a Kisado convertor is possible up to a certain point/extent on the very first stage but then becomes no longer playable to due a "screen freeze" glitch issue -- I'm not sure why that glitch occurs but it's a well-known fact/issue within the TG-16/Turbo Duo gaming community. The "PC Henshin" v2.1 Hu-Card convertor for the TG-16/Turbo Duo currently sold by Tototek themselves is another high-quality manufactured one worthy of your PCE/TG-16 hardware gaming collection.

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The ability to play GFDS on a PC Engine/Core Grafx/Core Grafx II or TurboGrafx-16 console setup with a Krikzz Turbo Everdrive Pro flashcart + EDFX add-on + a MD2 Scart with C-sync hooked up to an upscaler & played on a 1080p PC gaming monitor (with an obligatory scanline filter added for completeness) is truly priceless in that you don't need physical access to a CD-Rom2 or Super CD-Rom2 Interface add-on to begin with is a "major plus in my book." It doesn't get any better than that, folks.
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The PC Engine/Core Grafx/TurboGrafx-16 mini consoles sold through Konami Holdings back in 2020 worldwide do have GFDS included to play on along with saving both high scores & high score initials functionality for posterity via game save states is another cool highlight worth mentioning -- how cool is that?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Jonpachi]

I'm having a hard time picturing an alternate universe in which people argue that Axelay is the best shmup of all time. lol

Same with Sapphire. That game's only claim to fame is its absurd aftermarket price. Play it for even a second and you'll understand why nobody ever puts it atop any lists.

[Lemnear]

There was a time when I had a cult following for Ikaruga... then the more shmups I played, the more boring Ikaruga became. I think the only reason it was so praised over the years was its brilliant polarity mechanic, but then, playing it over and over again, you realize there's not much else beyond that. No power-ups, no different ships, only one type of shooting. It's nice how it exploits the "physicality" of some bosses (Buppousou especially) and that slightly R-Type feel of vertical versions of some stages.
But there's something that makes it incredibly "static" when replaying it, something I don't feel with practically any other shmup (or maybe I can't think of it now).

It lacks the sense of satisfaction you get from chaining kills in DDP/DOJ or cashing in a ton of chips in Ketsui, charging as many targets as possible in RayStorm/RayCrisis, shooting a giant laser in G-Darius, or blocking a ridiculous number of shots in Giga Wing.

[davyK]

RSG was one of the first games I ever imported and I was underwhelmed by it. I liked it but it just didn't grab me at first. It's only when I went back to it after several years and committed some and effort to it that started to appreciate it.

Like Ikaruga , is in a bit of a sub genre with it's short levels made up of environmental tricks and traps to figure out with the large weapon set and then it has a heavy emphasis on the boss fights. The chaining can be ignored and you can still enjoy the craft of it. But the chaining is waiting on you if you 1CC it. I consider it among the best ever made.

I've never really enjoyed Ikaruga though. I admire the craft on show and the aesthetic but it feels restrictive - that there's only one way through - like a piece of music you have to learn. While I often equate playing a good shmup with a route to learning a piece of music, other games feel that they allow a certain level of improvisation. Ikaruga doesn't come across that way. I still have the Gamecube port of it and play it from time to time but it's just far too demanding - you can't really play with it for casual kicks.

[CStarFlare]

RSG and Ikaruga are kind of their own subgenre - I can't think of other arcade shmups that end up being quite as routing and memorization heavy just for survival. I put this down to environmental hazards, which are pretty uncommon in vertical games.

They're special because they're very well executed versions of what they are, and even within their rigidity there's a high skill ceiling for expert scoreplay. But if you're not fully open to dealing with the environment and/or chaining, it's very easy to bounce off them.

[xEbb1993x]

I personally think those games are okay. But I wouldn't really consider them to be masterpieces.

[XoPachi]

Man... I remember my father gave me a copy of Ikaruga for my GameCube when I was in 4th grade. Said "I want you to try this". I was in front of that TV for fucking hours.

[hamfighterx]

I'm having a hard time picturing an alternate universe in which people argue that Axelay is the best shmup of all time. lol

IDK, I think Axelay was a particularly good example of a game that got a disproportionate amount of love from people who aren't typically as into the genre. I have indeed heard more people than you'd expect calling out Axelay as an all time classic shooter, and they're never the people who are big STG-heads.

Those people had probably never heard of Sapphire, or probably even Souky. Sega CD Silpheed is a pretty good call out too though, slick presentation went a long way with that one appealing to a more mass market audience.

[Bassa-Bassa]

S. Gurentai was exactly the opposite to Axelay. It was one of the best samples in the genre one could get for a home system yet it was widely ignored at its time for not landing on the leading console and coming from an unknown developer and a lesser publisher. Only arcade regulars cared about it.

[Steven]

Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga are both perfect examples of how to make a brilliant, ridiculously intricately designed and beautiful masterpiece of a game that isn't actually fun to play. just like Daioujou, but I'd definitely rather play Daioujou than either of these

Spoiler

but I also find most Treasure games in general to be largely whatever, including the lauded Gunstar Heroes; it's fine, but I'd much rather play a Metal Slug instead

also obligatory yuck chaining who the hell actually likes chaining

Spoiler

nobody

Then you get to Soukyuugurentai, which is just a glorious game and actually is fun to play. This is underselling this game quite a bit, of course. Was this available at import stores outside of Japan at all? I know that some import stores in the USA supposedly had Japanese Saturn games, but I was too young at the time and we didn't have anything like that in the middle of nowhere where I lived anyway.

I'm having a hard time picturing an alternate universe in which people argue that Axelay is the best shmup of all time. lol

Same with Sapphire. That game's only claim to fame is its absurd aftermarket price. Play it for even a second and you'll understand why nobody ever puts it atop any lists.

Its reputation is carried almost entirely by its price, graphics, and music, and probably in that order. The gameplay... exists, I suppose. I'll take it over Deep Blue, though...

[PC Engine Fan X!]

S. Gurentai was exactly the opposite to Axelay. It was one of the best samples in the genre one could get for a home system yet it was widely ignored at its time for not landing on the leading console and coming from an unknown developer and a lesser publisher. Only arcade regulars cared about it.

Souky Gurentai was available to play on both the JPN region PSX & SS gaming platforms -- SG was even released on the Sega Titan ST-V arcade platform under the "Terra Diver" namesake with all-English text included. How cool was that?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Bassa-Bassa]

Yeah, forgot about Oubu Shutsugeki. It was almost one year late, made by DECO as a minor release, with some evident downgrades and an extra nobody really needed. Not enough to save the game's success, it seems.

Admittedly, it was a different era to that of Axelay, which got more popularity in the West than in Japan as quality releases were more scarce.

I wonder if Terra Diver was really ever released as such. Having the version coded into the PCB didn't always imply it got an official release in its target markets.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Yeah, forgot about Oubu Shutsugeki. It was almost one year late, made by DECO as a minor release, with some evident downgrades and an extra nobody really needed. Not enough to save the game's success, it seems.

Admittedly, it was a different era to that of Axelay, which got more popularity in the West than in Japan as quality releases were more scarce.

I wonder if Terra Diver was really ever released as such. Having the version coded into the PCB didn't always imply it got an official release in its target markets.

I bought a Sega ST-V cart of Souky Gurentai/Terra Diver that came with the all-English text arcade paperworks including instruction card & the long inner strip insert -- this wasn't as common to "see out in the wilds" of American arcades but does exist. It's an interesting & uncommon arcade stg IP release as is.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Sumez]

My Soukyu cartridge says "Soukyugurentai (Terra Diver)" on the label. Not sure if that counts for anything

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Yep, that's the particular ST-V cart that'd be sold with the all-English printed arcade paperworks if bought brand new and complete back in the day.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Bassa-Bassa]

Spoiler

It was distributed by Able in Japan, who would be the official publisher in the US?

[Sumez]

Tow players!

[Steven]

And with unmistakable killing power!

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Spoiler

It was distributed by Able in Japan, who would be the official publisher in the US?

It'd be none other than Sega Enterprises Ltd. (the American Sega arcade subsidiary) themselves handling the distribution & sales of the ST-V carts like Terra Diver for the American arcades.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~