Way to reduce low frame rate judder in game mode on OLED TVs

[andykara2003]

Hi all, I’m about to buy an LG G5 55” TV, but I’m concerned about the increased judder of low frame rate (30fps) games in game mode (vs LCD) due to the ultra-fast pixel response time of OLEDs. With TV viewing, you can mitigate this with the trumotion settings, but in game mode these settings are not available as they introduce too much latency.

Is there anything that can be done to offset this in game mode?

[Josh128]

Those games are not going to visibly judder anymore than they did on the SD CRTs they were designed for. Soap opera effect motion interpolation does not work well for 30fps games, even with the new fangled DLSS 3 and FSR 4 frame gen tech on PCs.

[andykara2003]

Nice one for the reply Josh :)

Actually it’s well known that this is a problem with OLEDs with low frame rate games in game mode (ie without motion interpolation), with some opting even to avoid OLEDs altogether for this reason. I could use BFI to mitigate this, but it darkens the image too much for me, so I’m looking for another alternative..

[bobrocks95]

How do Samsung's QD-OLEDs fare? I've heard of plenty of firmware issues with Samsung TVs these days though.

[Josh128]

Nice one for the reply Josh

Actually it’s well known that this is a problem with OLEDs with low frame rate games in game mode (ie without motion interpolation), with some opting even to avoid OLEDs altogether for this reason. I could use BFI to mitigate this, but it darkens the image too much for me, so I’m looking for another alternative..

I'd have to see it, but it makes no sense to me. How can it have more judder than what you'd get with a CRT or plasma? You should get the double strobe effect of refresh of an even multiple of the game frame rate. If its OLED specific, I should be able to see it on my OLED iphone then if I can get SM64 emulation running on it, right?

[bobrocks95]

Oh whoops I didn't read the opening post very closely.

Basically Josh, slower LCDs have a little smear to the motion that can make them actually look more pleasing for low frame rate content. Super fast pixel response time + sample and hold + low frame rate content does indeed look a bit stuttery. That said, I'll take stutter and instant pixel response time over garish overshoot I've seen on a ton of monitors any day.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/g5-oled#test_180

@andykara - Personally I haven't noticed this much at all with low frame-rate games. It's much more noticeable in films with slow panning shots, even 30 FPS games usually have too much going on to really notice things.

[andykara2003]

:) Good article on it:
https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=10593

Looking into it further, it seems that OLED motion clarity is cleaner vs LCD because of this low persistence and some prefer that. And I think this judder is only a problem to those susceptible to it, with many not bothered at all by it. Unfortunately I’m one of the ones who notice it.

Interestingly this guy reckons that the Samsung ‘game motion plus’ does motion interpolation, but without the excessive latency that LG and others have in that mode (3 minutes in):
https://youtu.be/OEN3B8pXy2o?si=Ws32_BkezIoGGi7W

He thinks about 25ms, probably not tested tho. Plus some don’t like motion interpolation with its artefacts, but for 30fps Switch 2 games it’d be a good trade off for me as long as the latency is reasonably low.

Another guy on 30fps mitigation using motion interpolation on the LG models:
https://youtu.be/htGNl_Xh7CA?si=z7hH16naO4K1A6n2

Neither are highly respected channels of course, so I take it all with a pinch of salt & I’d need to test it myself. And even with relatively low latency, motion interpolation is far from ideal, but I’d take it over watching a 30fps OLED slideshow as long as the latency is acceptably low (20-25ms). My old LG CX has over 100ms latency in this mode, which is obviously unacceptable.

Rtings say motion blur is the only other solution. Fine, but doesn’t really solve the problem for me.

I’d love to know the latency of motion interpolation on a newer LG OLED and also to know if there are any other 2025 OLEDs out there that have a low latency in this mode. Would anyone know?

[Josh128]

The problem is that motion interpolation doesnt really work wtih 30 fps games. Even with film content, going way back, you will find that in the same show, even 24 or 30 fps, using motion interpolation settings on the TV, some scenes (usually panning scenes) are silky smooth while others, such as people organically moving in a still shot, retain the 24 fps look, which is one of the reasons I always hated it. Ive tried it on 30 fps games back in the day, thinking it would be cool if it could make SM64 look 60 fps, but it doesnt work almost at all on 30 fps game content.

Even the new fangled GPU driven motion interpolation requires ~60fps input to function properly, according to Nvidia itself.

[orange808]

I found Samsung's game mode interpolation underwhelming. It's possible their firmware has improved since I returned that panel.

[andykara2003]

Nice one Josh - I think things have changed since you tried it, though - it’s incredibly effective at 30fps now, as the guys in the LG video mentioned. On my LG CX it’s phenomenal - feels like a silky smooth high framerate game - as if you were playing a PC game at 120hz, much smoother than 60hz. I re-tested it just now with tears of the kingdom - you can play and swing the camera around smoothly and it really is a revelation.

The drawbacks are the artefacts, which are actually quite minimal, and the input latency, which is the real problem. Totally playable, but I prefer to have the latency as low as possible so not a solution for me unless they can get the latency much lower. I ended up playing some of BOTW in this way, just because I couldn’t bear the 30fps judder.

I’m very curious if the latest G series LG OLEDs have a significantly lower latency than my CX with motion interpolation on. If it’s a decent improvement, the G5 is a no-brainer for me & will pick one up.


I’m wondering if there’s anyone who’d know more about how low-latency the recent LG motion interpolation is compared to older models?

[Josh128]

Well thats extremely interesting to hear lol. What are the limitations? I mean, obviously its not going to be able to take a 10fps scene in Pilotwings 64 or the 20fps of WaveRace 64 and make them appear 60 fps smooth, eh?

With 30 fps games, the native judder is more apparent in bright games, such as SM64, and less apparent in dark games, such as Doom64. Any chance anyone could try some SM64 and report back how it fares?

[andykara2003]

Yes, I have a copy of the 3D Mario collection on Switch, so I’ll give that a go and get back here - perhaps the brighter game won’t fare as well as you say.

I can’t imagine it working well below 30fps, I’m thinking there just wouldn’t be enough frames to work with.

EDIT: Yes you’re absolutely right, the frame pacing is definitely more uneven with the brighter game, good call.

Perhaps this is mitigated in modern hardware/firmware, but I don’t think this is a realistic solution across all games.

Looking into it, the switch Zelda games use motion blur, but even with that, they’re too ‘framey’ for me on my TV. Apparently BFI doesn’t work well at 30fps as it’s a 60hz/120hz solution really. So it looks like I’m out of options, unless anyone else has any ideas?

[orange808]

+1 on LG's improved video processing on their OLED panels.

At least for film content, their new panels are greatly improved and I've been able to tune it to gently interpolate away judder outside of game mode--without distracting artifacts or the "soap opera" uncanny valley effect. Until very recently, only Sony panels were able to get the job done. Film and video look smoother without becoming unnatural.

I haven't tried it with games, though.

If you're using strobing/BFI, turn it off for games with lousy or unstable frame rates. That could be making judder worse

My main complaint with OLEDs now is their strobing/BFI and 144Hz speed limit. The Retrotink 4k running 1080p 240Hz (frame rate x4) on a faster HDR display (or even the "2x fps" 120Hz output on my LG) delivers better clarity without the excessive distracting flicker I get from my LG's "build-in" BFI option. Maybe it's just me and the room the LG panel is in, but the BFI is flickering mess.

[orange808]

Yes, I have a copy of the 3D Mario collection on Switch, so I’ll give that a go and get back here - perhaps the brighter game won’t fare as well as you say.

I can’t imagine it working well below 30fps, I’m thinking there just wouldn’t be enough frames to work with.

Sonys have been smoothing film for years.

Smoothing 24fps film content (and properly detecting low frame rates encoded inside a higher refresh rate) is a core task/feature for any modern display--and (until recently) that was a major pain point for LG panels.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that Orange808 - very good to know they’ve improved the motion interpolation on the new panels. If they’ve also improved the latency to a low enough level (say sub-25ms), then it could be a great situation all round. I’m having a hard time believing they’ve got it that low, though. Maybe I’ll take a lag tester into a store with my switch to get a definitive latency value..

[bobrocks95]

Thanks for that Orange808 - very good to know they’ve improved the motion interpolation on the new panels. If they’ve also improved the latency to a low enough level (say sub-25ms), then it could be a great situation all round. I’m having a hard time believing they’ve got it that low, though. Maybe I’ll take a lag tester into a store with my switch to get a definitive latency value..

I posted rting's LG G5 review with my earlier link. They have 4K with motion interpolation at 85.5 ms so not much improvement there.

Unrelated, but also curious how they hit 165Hz at 4K when HDR at that res would exceed HDMI 2.1 bandwidth. Does DSC suddenly get enforced or does it just not support HDR at 165Hz?

[andykara2003]

Thanks, I missed that, obviously 85ms is unacceptable. After a search, I gave up and will probably just buy a G5 and will be more likely to choose high frame rate games or games with a performance option. It’s just what it is. Thanks all for the input..

[tongshadow]

How do Samsung's QD-OLEDs fare? I've heard of plenty of firmware issues with Samsung TVs these days though.

Late reply, but stick to LG OLEDs, the software is much better for gamers. Been living with the S90D for a couple of weeks, and compared to my LG C2 there are some things I miss:
-4:4:4 Chroma can only be enabled in PC mode (same for my C2, but it's much more flexible in options and newer LG models have an option in the menu iirc)
-BFI cant be used in PC mode at all, which means you'll get a subpar picture quality if you want any form of blur reduction
-BFI feels stuttery, I dont know how Samsung messed up but it doesnt look as smooth as LG's
-Samsung's menu is much more difficult to navigate, seriously, Game Mode buried under "Connection" settings?

Not to mention the whole ordeal with the panel lottery (you may get an WOLED depending on the size and where you live), so I believe the LGs are a safer bet.
Pros? QD-OLED has better viewing angles (noticeable on larger screens), better color saturation and generally a brighter picture.