Dadshmup design vs Danmaku shmup design

[Jonpachi]

aRthritis-Type

Dodonpachi Dai-Abe-Tes

[Hani]

Gotta say, I love these dad edits, they’re all absolutely brilliant. Maybe we can even have a dad shmup edit thread, now that’s a good subject for a thread! Just split the royalties with me for coming up with such a good idea for a thread. I can already envision it, ‘Dad Shmup edits, only fellow dads allowed!’
Wait, that’d exclude me…

[JBC]

My wife left me for a young shredded Danmaku player with a bigger weiner than me.

Idc tho, those games still suck. No artistry, just glowing dots.

[MJR]

You are laughing now, but once you get so old and rotten (once we get..) that you cant 1CC anything anymore without invisibility cheats, it wont be funny.

Then we shall have new genre; grandad shmups, with leisurely pace, extra slow bullets and super slow ship speed.

[Steven]

Hm, haven't seen this thread for almost a year. My opinion about bullet hell has somewhat changed since last time; I officially hate bullet hell more than I did last year.

Fuck bullet hell, go play Scramble or Galaxian or whatever instead.

[Rastan78]

https://youtu.be/gombHp5wMrk?si=EmuuzkXXbIf5sxxR

Not a true dad shmup unless you have to refuel.
Press B to blame current or previous administration for rising gas prices.

[Steven]

Scramble has refuelling! That means I win, right?

[MJR]

Scramble has refuelling! That means I win, right?

I play Scramble only on Vectrex! The winner is me!

[Steven]

My Vectrex is broken and I gotta fix it eventually and now I'm sad because my Vectrex is still broken.

[Sima Tuna]

https://youtu.be/gombHp5wMrk?si=EmuuzkXXbIf5sxxR

Not a true dad shmup unless you have to refuel.
Press B to blame current or previous administration for rising gas prices.

Somebody make an arcade shmup where the price per credit is the real-time gas price in your area.

Put a little "I DID THAT" sign next to the part of the cabinet where customers have to feed in money.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Amusingly, at the highest levels, bullet hells are also very proactive. Just take a look at how important routing is for high scores in most games. Only difference is manipulating bullets instead of preventing them from appearing.

At the same time, there are several bullet hells which, even without complicated routing, heavily incentivize killing enemies quickly. Go figure.

[Faith]

Usually, Faith preference is anything where "raw dodging skill" that learned over the years can transfer. So, like when I first play Mushihimesama... managed Normal 1.0 Original 1CC in one day. Cho Ren Sha cleared in 3 attempts. I strongly disagree that danmaku means strong routing needed, there are many example (even by Cave) where it is not true. Usually for cave, routing is only more strict with scoring (but, still can have a lot of flexibility!) or expert mode. Even touhou patterns, if you have a lot of experience in touhou... very transferable skills (even to Cave).

Instead of like now... just started playing Truxton yesterday... and there are too many moments to count where die just because did not know enemy come from behind. 100% memorization.

You do not know enemy come from bottom left? Die. Middle? Die. So on. Just to earn coin $$$!!

Going back to Mushi... you can dodge well, you will clear it quite fast. Not like, oh... you did not know something will come from behind? Too bad. You did not know this enemy will come from side at light speed? Too sad. You did not know you need to be in middle of screen for this circle of enemy? Oh well... now we can earn more money from you! This just leave poor taste, I feel.

Also, route-heavy can be relaxing if done well!!

Wrote about it before...

But this remind me: I once heard someone say they hate STG that need any routing lol. Funny idea. But actually, that is why Faith likes expert modes... because usually they become so routing heavy, that it is nice during run to be a bit less stress about dodging. There is always a balance. If make STG 100% dodging like Cho Ren Sha or Crisis Wing, sometimes means in one day... can do less run. Like... I can play Arcade Unlimited non-stop for many, many hours. Because route is so solid, that brain can be a bit more relaxed for good part of game. But if play, like... Mushi Original Max with light-speed bullets... do like 3 runs and already so tired x_x"...

[davyK]

I like both styles. The shooting vs dodging is a good way of putting it. Then within the dodging type of game you can get those games that are cancel/hyper crazy too.

I also like going real old school and having to lead shots like in Galaga or Asteroids - that can be very satisfying - particularly with Asteroids which is one of my all timers in any genre due to its purity and its resistance to improvements. Apart from Deluxe which added a couple of things any other addition or update has spoiled it. Asteroids also has the advantage of just the right amount of randomness that ensures no two waves are the same and even from the start you need to keep on your toes.

Routing can be very satisfying but I prefer its requirement to be in later stages of a game. It's nice to start with levels that allow some freestyling.

Depends on the mood.

[MJR]

I like both styles. The shooting vs dodging is a good way of putting it. Then within the dodging type of game you can get those games that are cancel/hyper crazy too.

I also like going real old school and having to lead shots like in Galaga or Asteroids - that can be very satisfying - particularly with Asteroids which is one of my all timers in any genre due to its purity and its resistance to improvements. Apart from Deluxe which added a couple of things any other addition or update has spoiled it. Asteroids also has the advantage of just the right amount of randomness that ensures no two waves are the same and even from the start you need to keep on your toes.

Routing can be very satisfying but I prefer its requirement to be in later stages of a game. It's nice to start with levels that allow some freestyling.

Depends on the mood.

I agree on your comments on purity and how those first shooting games can be very satisfying. But I need to say that Asteroids has indeed been improved, first by Blasteroids and then Super Stardust games. Whether they truly are improvements or not can be down to taste, of course, so I wont be arguing that.

[Faith]

I like both styles. The shooting vs dodging is a good way of putting it. Then within the dodging type of game you can get those games that are cancel/hyper crazy too.

Actually feel Batsugun is the best game that bridge these two... since I think can say Batsugun is a bit of a bridge between the two big era. Especially Special Ver!~

[Lemnear]

I understand the distinction between "Dogde 'Em All" and "Shoot 'Em All," but essentially you're dodging bullets in both old school and danmaku. The only difference is that danmaku makes you forget how to aim accurately, or at least that's what I'm experiencing.
River Raid is magnificent, though. I remember putting it on my list one year. It's disarmingly simple yet incredibly fun.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I understand the distinction between "Dogde 'Em All" and "Shoot 'Em All," but essentially you're dodging bullets in both old school and danmaku. The only difference is that danmaku makes you forget how to aim accurately, or at least that's what I'm experiencing.
River Raid is magnificent, though. I remember putting it on my list one year. It's disarmingly simple yet incredibly fun.

To play the Atari 2600 Activision game of Carol Shaw's classic River Raid on a real Atari VCS, 2600 or 2600 Jr. console setup is absolutely awesome. There's a sequel by the name of "River Raid II" for the 2600 console as well that was released by Dan Kitchen of Absolute Games developer/publisher fame. If you have access to an Uno Cart flash cart for the 2600, it can play both River Raid & River Raid II 2600 roms on it as well via a SD card slot interface.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Ixmucane2]

The concept of "bullet hell/labyrinth" might simply have old but not so obvious roots;

Even Space Invaders goes beyond immediate aiming and dodging: there is a need to plan ahead movement depending on incoming shots and not only enemy movements. Definitely a simple "labyrinth" of bullets that compensates low density and low complexity with high speed.
Danmaku flourished when technical limitations allowed enough bullet sprites to do something fancy with them, but bullets governing action have always been present and occasionally more important than enemies.

[nogden]

What would you guys consider Raizing games to be? I know Battle Garegga had a lot of bullets for its time but I think it and Batrider fall into a sweet spot in the middle. Nice strategic, methodical gameplay with some sections of dense patterns, and other with blistering fast bullets (looking at you envy)

[Sima Tuna]

Aren't Raizing games the proto-bullet hells? Before actual danmaku was invented?

[Lemnear]

The concept of "bullet hell/labyrinth" might simply have old but not so obvious roots;

Even Space Invaders goes beyond immediate aiming and dodging: there is a need to plan ahead movement depending on incoming shots and not only enemy movements. Definitely a simple "labyrinth" of bullets that compensates low density and low complexity with high speed.
Danmaku flourished when technical limitations allowed enough bullet sprites to do something fancy with them, but bullets governing action have always been present and occasionally more important than enemies.

mmm, the defensive walls from Space Invaders are a mechanic that hasn't been reused, a "shield" that deteriorates but ALSO blocks your projectiles. R-Type has something similar, except it doesn't deteriorate, but it's a mechanic that hasn't been explored properly in my opinion (not the R-Type pod), like the "actively moving level walls" thing, for example. The whole idea of ​​danmaku being like "walls in a level" doesn't hold up very well, especially since you can destroy whatever "generates" those "walls" of bullets, but those "walls of bullets" don't block yours; it's not the same as terrain, come on.

[Ixmucane2]

The concept of "bullet hell/labyrinth" might simply have old but not so obvious roots;

Even Space Invaders goes beyond immediate aiming and dodging: there is a need to plan ahead movement depending on incoming shots and not only enemy movements. Definitely a simple "labyrinth" of bullets that compensates low density and low complexity with high speed.
Danmaku flourished when technical limitations allowed enough bullet sprites to do something fancy with them, but bullets governing action have always been present and occasionally more important than enemies.

mmm, the defensive walls from Space Invaders are a mechanic that hasn't been reused, a "shield" that deteriorates but ALSO blocks your projectiles. R-Type has something similar, except it doesn't deteriorate, but it's a mechanic that hasn't been explored properly in my opinion (not the R-Type pod), like the "actively moving level walls" thing, for example. The whole idea of ​​danmaku being like "walls in a level" doesn't hold up very well, especially since you can destroy whatever "generates" those "walls" of bullets, but those "walls of bullets" don't block yours; it's not the same as terrain, come on.

I wasn't talking about the actual walls in Space Invaders, which are a separate complication of the perpetual choice between going left, standing still and going right, but about bullets influencing movement paths on a significantly longer time scale than dodging.
If on a collision course with a bullet, it must of course be dodged; but is it more efficient to reverse direction, attacking other enemies or waiting for them, or to stop and let the bullets pass before reaching the original intended target? This decision isn't too dissimilar from predicting which gaps in a thick bullet pattern are going to remain safe and allow effective shooting or are going to force the player away from targets.

[Lemnear]

Even Space Invaders goes beyond immediate aiming and dodging: there is a need to plan ahead movement depending on incoming shots and not only enemy movements. Definitely a simple "labyrinth" of bullets that compensates low density and low complexity with high speed.
Danmaku flourished when technical limitations allowed enough bullet sprites to do something fancy with them, but bullets governing action have always been present and occasionally more important than enemies.

mmm, the defensive walls from Space Invaders are a mechanic that hasn't been reused, a "shield" that deteriorates but ALSO blocks your projectiles. R-Type has something similar, except it doesn't deteriorate, but it's a mechanic that hasn't been explored properly in my opinion (not the R-Type pod), like the "actively moving level walls" thing, for example. The whole idea of ​​danmaku being like "walls in a level" doesn't hold up very well, especially since you can destroy whatever "generates" those "walls" of bullets, but those "walls of bullets" don't block yours; it's not the same as terrain, come on.

I wasn't talking about the actual walls in Space Invaders, which are a separate complication of the perpetual choice between going left, standing still and going right, but about bullets influencing movement paths on a significantly longer time scale than dodging.
If on a collision course with a bullet, it must of course be dodged; but is it more efficient to reverse direction, attacking other enemies or waiting for them, or to stop and let the bullets pass before reaching the original intended target? This decision isn't too dissimilar from predicting which gaps in a thick bullet pattern are going to remain safe and allow effective shooting or are going to force the player away from targets.

But essentially DAD vs. Danmaku are the same thing, at different speeds, except that one condenses patterns, limiting your routes, while the old school essentially has the "skeleton" of danmaku bullet patterns, but faster. However, one forces you to aim, while the other practically never does (danmaku).
The difference I'm experiencing is that the old school teaches you the fundamentals, while danmaku doesn't (but you learn grazing, bullet canceling from there).
It might sound like a profanity, but to me they seem like the same thing. They're shmups with different tweaks, balanced differently, but essentially the core is the same and you always do the same thing. There's just a change in tweaks like "Number of bullets on screen," "bullet speed," "hitbox size," etc.
I'm not saying there aren't any differences and that the subgenre doesn't exist, but the biggest difference in my experience is between DAD/Danmaku VS Memorizer.