Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

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Bassa-Bassa
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Steven wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 12:39 pm
Bassa-Bassa wrote: But it is technically 4:3 (or 3:4). Pixels aren't squares, much less on the X68000.
lol please provide mathematical proof that 512x512 is not a 1:1 ratio. It may not look that way on a CRT because that's how CRTs work, but it's indeed a 1:1 ratio. It's not like a 320x240 resolution, which is actually 4:3, and of course spinning it 90 degrees does give a 3:4.
If by "ratio" you're referring to the algebraic operation then let me say that's dumb. Not just because it's plain elementary and therefore, redundant, but because it serves no purpose in this discusion. When you say this:
technically it uses a 512x512 resolution and therefore isn't technically 4:3
Anyone with a sane brain will think of the graphics' aspect ratio. Which indeed, is not 1:1 but 4:3 (or 3:4, for this game) on the X68000 unless you tweak its CRT monitor's geometry.

The game's resolution is 256x256, by the way.
Last edited by Bassa-Bassa on Thu Apr 17, 2025 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Steven »

So, yeah, it's not 4:3, just like I said.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Steven wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 12:39 pm
Bassa-Bassa wrote: But it is technically 4:3 (or 3:4). Pixels aren't squares, much less on the X68000.
lol please provide mathematical proof that 512x512 is not a 1:1 ratio.
CRS is intended to be seen on a 4:3 display, regardless of the native pixel aspect. Sure, you could also display it on a truly square monitor and it'd look fine too, but it's no different from countless arcade games such as Capcom's CPS-2 which has an aspect ratio that means pixels are not square when on a 4:3 monitor display. It's still conceived and intended for a 4:3 display, which ultimately is what matters most. Nobody refers to CPS-2 games as not being 4:3 aspect games just because the resolution the games runs doesn't produce square pixels. Espgaluda and Ketsui I think also run on 3:4 aspect with non-square pixels, if you run them at their "native" res with square pixels it'd be incredibly tall and skinny.

Same goes for NES games, if you used a perfectly square monitor it'd be square pixels, but they don't show square pixels when displayed on a TV, they're stretched horizontally. Referring to the native aspect of NES games as 4:3 is correct in the sense that it's the aspect ratio it was intended to be displayed at. Of course, going from 4:3 to a more square aspect like 5:4 or 1:1 isn't a huge deal and square monitors are not unheard of.

The intended display is essentially what defines the aspect ratio. It's only on PC games nowadays that pixels are generally expected to be displayed at a square aspect ratio and you no longer see non-square pixels due to being stretched on a display. When you see people doing stuff like Perler Bead art of NES games, it's actually not authentic to how it'd have been shown on a TV; they'd be more rectangular pixels (though I do like and kind of prefer my pixels being square).

I don't really get why you're making a strawman argument against someone who obviously knows the difference between native pixel resolution and intended display aspect...
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Steven »

Yes, it may be intended to be seen on a CRT, but the fact is that the game does have a 1:1 aspect ratio. It's not right to display it this way, but it's mathematically provable and proven that it does have a 1:1 ratio.

I will, however, take M2's square pixels on ShotTriggers over the distorted, uneven sizing and artifacting of Hamster's ACA stuff given a choice.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Steven wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 1:40 pm Yes, it may be intended to be seen on a CRT, but the fact is that the game does have a 1:1 aspect ratio. It's not right to display it this way, but it's mathematically provable and proven that it does have a 1:1 ratio.
Bassa-Bassa wrote:that's dumb
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Steven wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 1:40 pm Yes, it may be intended to be seen on a CRT, but the fact is that the game does have a 1:1 aspect ratio. It's not right to display it this way, but it's mathematically provable and proven that it does have a 1:1 ratio.
Bassa-Bassa wrote:that's dumb
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Lemnear
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Lemnear »

I'm back on Strikers 1945 II
but...are there any methods to get higher scores? Are the gold bars unpredictable or is there a system for how/when to get them and maximize the score?
And what is the easiest order of the initial levels?
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Lethe
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Lethe »

Oh look it's this moron discussion again.

Explain these things to me:
- Why did Yosshin, a famously fastidious developer, intentionally make the circles not circular?
- Why did Yosshin intentionally not normalize horizontal movement for a non-square format?
- Why did Yosshin make the new PC version try very very hard to display in 1:1 with no other option presented, even adding black bars in fullscreen?

Since you cannot explain these things, the real answer is: CRS is displayed in 4:3 because of the limitations of typical hardware at the time, which is different to it being "correct". It's merely a compromise. Next you'll be telling me PC-98 games are 4:3 too.
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 1:16 pmNobody refers to CPS-2 games as not being 4:3 aspect games just because the resolution the games runs doesn't produce square pixels. Espgaluda and Ketsui I think also run on 3:4 aspect with non-square pixels, if you run them at their "native" res with square pixels it'd be incredibly tall and skinny.
Yes, because those systems look correct when squashed or stretched and look wrong at pixel aspect. CRS looks wrong when stretched and looks correct at pixel aspect. Not to mention they play correct and play wrong in the same relationships. It's literally the opposite situation.
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 1:16 pmsomeone who obviously knows the difference between native pixel resolution and intended display aspect...
:lol:
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BIL
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BIL »

Lemnear wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 6:02 pm I'm back on Strikers 1945 II
but...are there any methods to get higher scores? Are the gold bars unpredictable or is there a system for how/when to get them and maximize the score?
And what is the easiest order of the initial levels?
The key is the gleaming animation cycle. Grab 'em during the flash for max earnings. Image

Image <-- that's Strikers 1999, aka Strikers 1945 III, which rewards consecutive flash gets; same principle.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Lethe wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 6:21 pmSince you cannot explain these things, the real answer is: CRS is displayed in 4:3 because of the limitations of typical hardware at the time, which is different to it being "correct".
I mean those things are very easily explained; Yosshin could well have been using a 1:1 square monitor or something and designed it around the hardware he was using. They're not unheard of as I said, but as far as I know generally speaking, end users were using 4:3. It's getting down to "well ackshually" style semantics to pretend that the system that 99% of consumers would experience in a 4:3 display format isn't exactly that.
Yes, because those systems look correct when squashed or stretched and look wrong at pixel aspect.
And stuff that's intended for 4:3 looks fine when on a square monitor. 4:3 isn't that far off from 1:1, and vice versa is true.

The fact that the circles aren't circular or whatever isn't really relevant to the discussion aside from as an interesting point of interest. The dev may have intended it or preferred it as a 1:1 display game, but it's also not wrong to say it's also a 4:3 aspect ratio game in that that's how many, many people are going to have experienced the game and will remember it.

I remember seeing a website that talked about how interesting it was that Darius for the Megadrive had proper circular suns when it was stretched to widescreen, therefore it was actually intended as a widescreen Megadrive game. But really, who back then would've even owned a widescreen CRT? Like, nobody would've been playing it on that, so no, regardless of how squished circular objects look for whatever reason it's still accurate to say Darius MD is a 4:3 aspect game; it's how any kid playing it at the time would've experienced it. Saying that the graphics were actually secretly intended for widescreen aspect all along is a neat curiosity, but it doesn't remove the fact that it simply wasn't how it was played at the time, either. Both can be true at the same time.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Lethe wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 6:21 pm Oh look it's this moron discussion again.

Explain these things to me:
- Why did Yosshin, a famously fastidious developer, intentionally make the circles not circular?
- Why did Yosshin intentionally not normalize horizontal movement for a non-square format?
- Why did Yosshin make the new PC version try very very hard to display in 1:1 with no other option presented, even adding black bars in fullscreen?

Since you cannot explain these things, the real answer is: CRS is displayed in 4:3 because of the limitations of typical hardware at the time, which is different to it being "correct". It's merely a compromise. Next you'll be telling me PC-98 games are 4:3 too.
Have you ever even used a CRT? A CRT monitor doesn't have any limitation to modify with some moderation the picture's geometry. Getting a 256x256 game displayed at 1:1 instead of 4:3 on the X68000 is not exactly rocket science. PC-98 games just couldn't be 4:3 because you'd normally be forcing way too much vertical porches under PC-98's standard video mode - so yeah, unlike many other systems like the X68000, the usual PC-98 graphics as seen in screengrabs aren't intended to be displayed at full screen.

The actual discussion anyway was not if Chourensha looks more "correct" at 1:1 than at 4:3 (which I can perfectly agree with - the game even has a "tate" mode keeping the same resolution, mind), but whether if "it's technically a 1:1 game" (literally), which is, at best, an arbitrarism, but likely it's once again a byproduct of an LCD-era mindset which just can't comprehend that pixels aren't squares.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BulletMagnet »

Just a heads-up, the resolution discussion, should folks want to continue it, should probably be done in a new topic.
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Lemnear
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Lemnear »

BIL wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 6:28 pm
Lemnear wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 6:02 pm I'm back on Strikers 1945 II
but...are there any methods to get higher scores? Are the gold bars unpredictable or is there a system for how/when to get them and maximize the score?
And what is the easiest order of the initial levels?
The key is the gleaming animation cycle. Grab 'em during the flash for max earnings. Image

Image <-- that's Strikers 1999, aka Strikers 1945 III, which rewards consecutive flash gets; same principle.
Yes I know that when they sparkle they give more points, but exactly WHEN do they do that? How does the timer work? :x
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FLASH FLASH FLASH (ref 2 X68k BOSCONIAN OST ;3)

Post by BIL »

Lemnear wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:01 amYes I know that when they sparkle they give more points, but exactly WHEN do they do that? How does the timer work? :x
WYSIWYG, pretty much. Image Pretty sure they're on a global cycling timer. Not sure of the precise timing values; it's tight, but not frame-perfect, IIRC. Watch some high-level plays, preferably at 60fps, to get an idea. I'll go looking around for some! Shumps Wiki seems a little light on footage currently.

But first, I have to take FOOKIN WHIPPET for HE FOOKIN WALK! Image Image

Even moreso than with your typical STG, in Psikyo, it's best to get your stage routes down first, then fine-tune your medal pickups. You don't want to be hovering around all "HOW SOON IS NAOOO" getting pelted by Fast Aimed Shots™ (or even Unaimed Slow Spreads!) as the flashing buggers scroll offscreen. ;3
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Lethe
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Lethe »

BulletMagnet wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 9:25 am Just a heads-up, the resolution discussion, should folks want to continue it, should probably be done in a new topic.
Oi! Cutting off my chance at the last word, how rude. :(
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BIL »

Lethe wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 5:23 pm
BulletMagnet wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 9:25 am Just a heads-up, the resolution discussion, should folks want to continue it, should probably be done in a new topic.
Oi! Cutting off my chance at the last word, how rude. :(
TRVE+HONEST home of Hardcore Killing Investigations R2RKMF welcomes a resumption of this previous and ongoing HAWT pixel debate ;3

I don't understand it much tbh, I just look back and forth like a dog watching tennis :o

SEEMS PRETTY HARDCORE THOUGH Image Image
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Re: FLASH FLASH FLASH (ref 2 X68k BOSCONIAN OST ;3)

Post by Lemnear »

BIL wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 3:15 pm
Lemnear wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:01 amYes I know that when they sparkle they give more points, but exactly WHEN do they do that? How does the timer work? :x
WYSIWYG, pretty much. Image Pretty sure they're on a global cycling timer. Not sure of the precise timing values; it's tight, but not frame-perfect, IIRC. Watch some high-level plays, preferably at 60fps, to get an idea. I'll go looking around for some! Shumps Wiki seems a little light on footage currently.
Thanks! That's what I wanted to know, even from the GIF you posted, you get the gold bars with the same "rhythm".
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Hani »

Currently, I'm playing some DOJ for a basic normal survival clear since nowadays I'm not the best player lol. Skilled or not, it''s definitely a really good shmup and I'm looking forward to getting the 1-All soon!
On your decision it's absolutely.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by bobhasashotgun »

I've been playing a lot of Hishouzame lately. The game became a lot more manageable once I learned bombs refill at the end of the level. I'm not used to arcade shmups being this generous.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

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bobhasashotgun wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 7:23 pm I've been playing a lot of Hishouzame lately. The game became a lot more manageable once I learned bombs refill at the end of the level. I'm not used to arcade shmups being this generous.
This game, besides Gradius and Salamander really sets the bar of the modern shmup design to this day. All of the checkpoints teach you how to properly recover and it's short range bomb is like your secondary weapon than emergency bomb. I know some players in the community that hates classic/dadshmups find the game enjoyable even with checkpoints, and some of them managed to get 1st loop clear.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BEAMLORD »

Hishouzame is great. But man, it gives me a complex, because I still haven't 1cc'd it in about 2 year's on/off play since the Arcade Garage release :mrgreen: Always seems like it should be so easy, but so far proves to be one slippery fish.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Steven »

Hishouzame is one of the top 2~3 best games in the genre. Awesome game. Some of the checkpoints are kind of silly on the loops, especially the one that respawns you between the two ships on stage 3, where you're at risk of getting insta-sniped by the ship turrets upon respawning, but it's still not bad once you figure out what to do there (bomb, basically), and it ends up making me laugh if I die to those turrets, so I can't hate them.
BEAMLORD wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:39 pm Hishouzame is great. But man, it gives me a complex, because I still haven't 1cc'd it in about 2 year's on/off play since the Arcade Garage release :mrgreen: Always seems like it should be so easy, but so far proves to be one slippery fish.
Have you tried bombing the crap out of the game? It helps with the stage 4 boss train things, ship turrets and formations of ground turrets when you have a low level shot, powering up during recovery on stage 5, and may be useful for the zako reinforcements that show up during the final boss fight if the boss is still alive when they show up. Having your stock reset to three at the start of every stage helps.

I typically bomb the stage 4 bosses after loop 2 anyway because their HP rises to a point where it's hard to kill the first one and pick up all three bombs there anyway, so if you're going to lose a bomb somehow you might as well make sure that it does damage instead of never spawning, and for the second one you really want to destroy it before the tanks and planes show up, which can be difficult with the HP increase on loops. Alternatively, you can bomb the tanks and planes instead, which may be even more helpful than bombing the boss. Or just bomb everything! That's always fun. You'll lose 3000 points per bomb, but don't worry about it. Stage 4 is weird because there are about two checkpoints on that stage that will send you forward instead of backward, which I don't think is seen in very many games at all.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BEAMLORD »

Steven wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:04 amHave you tried bombing the crap out of the game?
Yeah, I typically bomb the shit out of those trains, and usually use a few more on the following procession of planes, tanks and zako. Stage 5 more often than not descends into checkpoint mayhem.

In practice, I can clear stage 5. Had a few credits this morning to refresh the old noggin', and made it there. Flipped over to Arcade Challenge, started stage 5 with shot level 4 as I had in my prior run, and sure as shit no-missed the stage.

Seems a classic case of stage fright, fluffing my lines and losing my strafing rhythm in the end-game pressure cooker. I'll have a few more credits over the weekend.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Steven »

BEAMLORD wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 7:01 am
Steven wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:04 amHave you tried bombing the crap out of the game?
Seems a classic case of stage fright, fluffing my lines and losing my strafing rhythm in the end-game pressure cooker. I'll have a few more credits over the weekend.
Yep, that'll do it. I know how to recover from every checkpoint in the game, so if you get stuck I can put some replays up or something.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BEAMLORD »

Steven wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 12:49 pmYep, that'll do it. I know how to recover from every checkpoint in the game, so if you get stuck I can put some replays up or something.
Thanks, man. Wouldn't wanna impose, though. However, if you have a few tips on recovery at the stage 5 battleship and just after the final boss prior to the zako rush, that would be welcome :mrgreen: Made it past the boss this afternoon, but was left with no bombs and a level 1 shot. Needless to say, got summarily fucked up, quick smart.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BIL »

Christ Hishou makes me wiener stand up just seeing it discussed. Image

BLOWING UP TRAINCARS PROACTIVELY
EAT THIS HOT FUCKIN SHELL MR. BOSS TANK
WHAT A BIG SURPRISE! I HOPE FOR YOUR SAKE YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING IN THAT BIG HULL, 大和君 "YOU PUNY PATHETIC ZAKO!"


A rarefied air of utter gamushara I enjoy in a handful of others like say GAN.SHMOKU, also UNDEADLINE.MD perhaps, ofc Seibu canon with them owing everything to EASTPLAN RAGAZZI - it's pretty good! :shock:

I can go to my grave happy it got a goddamn home translation, a definitive one at that! Absurd a game so colossally influential went so long without. There are far bigger and deadlier Toa-bushi, but none so monolithic in form and legacy. Upon that front THIS SHARK DWARFS ITS KIN LIKE KIPPERS Image God rest M2. ;w;7 (well there is SURAPPU_FIGHTO, get on it pls ;3 ;3 ;3)
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by bobhasashotgun »

BEAMLORD wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:08 pm Thanks, man. Wouldn't wanna impose, though. However, if you have a few tips on recovery at the stage 5 battleship and just after the final boss prior to the zako rush, that would be welcome :mrgreen: Made it past the boss this afternoon, but was left with no bombs and a level 1 shot. Needless to say, got summarily fucked up, quick smart.
I've been practicing point blanking the boss so I can kill him with only two bombs. I don't think the tail has a hitbox so I can get real close without worrying about crashing. That being said, I'm still very inconsistent, so there might be a better strategy.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Steven »

BEAMLORD wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:08 pm
Steven wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 12:49 pmYep, that'll do it. I know how to recover from every checkpoint in the game, so if you get stuck I can put some replays up or something.
Thanks, man. Wouldn't wanna impose, though. However, if you have a few tips on recovery at the stage 5 battleship and just after the final boss prior to the zako rush, that would be welcome :mrgreen: Made it past the boss this afternoon, but was left with no bombs and a level 1 shot. Needless to say, got summarily fucked up, quick smart.
From the ship, you have some options, but in any case, don't worry about destroying the superstructure when recovering. You can seal the turrets as you shoot them at point blank on loop 1 easily, so you do that and then dodge to the other side when the superstructure fires at you. Ideally you'd no bomb the ship, which looks like this: https://youtu.be/Ybry5GJ_QIg

Alternatively, if you are not confident and want to bomb, try bombing the five aft turrets and then go pick up the dropped bomb, like this: https://youtu.be/0JKHnaKgRxo
I messed this one up a bit, but you get the idea. It's basically supposed to be mostly the same technique as the no bomb, but it's easier and probably safer to get all of the aft turrets with a bomb and then you don't have to worry about anything. If you bomb while position on top of the turret farthest aft, you should be able to destroy all of the turrets and pick up the bomb while also not having to worry about any shots from the superstructure or planes.

For the boss only, I typically will not bomb it unless it helps to pick up the S powerup if the boss is still alive, or if I get to the the massive wave of shit while the boss is still alive. You can bomb the small planes if you want, but it leaves less bombs for the tanks at the end. I messed this one up even more; I bombed to pick up the S safely, but I did it too early to pick up the S when I wanted to and had to back off, and then I went too far to the right immediately after and had to bomb to not die, but if you want to save your bombs for the tanks, which are more annoying to destroy without a wider shot, something this will work. I think the third bomb was completely unnecessary, but it's better to be safe and lose 3000 points from bombing than to die and have to do it again.
https://youtu.be/83ak3eT26pU

You don't have to bomb the wave of shit, but it makes it way easier. The tanks are what you really have to worry about, not the planes. BTW those tanks do not spawn if the boss is still alive. The planes still spawn, but the tanks don't. I also did all of these without autofire, so adding auto will make it easier. I don't remember if you can 30Hz the boss to death at minimum power before the huge wave of shit comes, but I think you can. Without auto, you're pretty much going to have to bomb at some point.

In case it helps, here is an older no miss no bomb no autofire where I get all of the bombs and destroy all of the yellow planes, so it's basically a perfect 1-ALL: https://youtu.be/8CQbiyULVz8?feature=shared
This shows a technique for the stage 4 bosses so you can no bomb them and get all of the bombs, and also how to get both bombs from the tanks on the beach before the big ship comes on stage 5.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BEAMLORD »

Thanks, Steven. My stage 5 battleship strats are looking better already :mrgreen: Great replay, too. You clearly know the game very well. No autofire might be a bridge too far for me, though :wink:
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BEAMLORD »

bobhasashotgun wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 7:56 pmI've been practicing point blanking the boss so I can kill him with only two bombs. I don't think the tail has a hitbox so I can get real close without worrying about crashing. That being said, I'm still very inconsistent, so there might be a better strategy.
Thanks for pointing this out - didn't realise the tail end of the plane has no hitbox. Appears to work on the mid-sized planes, too. Good to know.
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