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[sumdumgoy]

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[GaijinPunch]

Manhunter... The character direction is lacking...

How?

viewtopic.php?p=1568027&hilit=Manhunter#p1568027
Some other members chimed in after.

[sumdumgoy]

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[GaijinPunch]

There's just some super cheesy lines and some various flat delivery here and there that I found egregious. I enjoyed it to be quite fair, but it has its faults.

[sumdumgoy]

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[Lord British]

There's just some super cheesy lines and some various flat delivery here and there that I found egregious. I enjoyed it to be quite fair, but it has its faults.

To play devil's advocate for a moment....

Spoiler

I think a little cheese goes a long way for the audience. It fit better for Mann here, 'cause whenever he wants us to take him seriously in his other pictures, his characters come off flat and archetypal. Like with Pacino's in Heat--he had one breakaway moment that was the standout of a three-hour long movie: "'Cause she's got a... GREAT ASS!" Same thing with Scarface; we love it when he hams it up with his accent inflections on words like 'cock-a-roach' and the famous "little friend" line. 'Cause when he's in his serious mode--that "my balls and my word" honor code--it's like, whatever. He's a murderer and a drug dealer. Who cares. We just want to see him ham it up when he's pissed off.

And when Mann goes for seriousness, like in Thief, I find the movie is giving me what the character gives: nothing. He's a thief who's pissed off 'cause The System is against him, but all I'm thinking is, "Well, duh. You brought this on yourself your whole life, and now you're expecting your thievery to pay off with The American Dream? What a moron!" Tuesday Weld's character said it best to Cann in the diner: "You're an asshole." And yeah, he is. And he never changes from that, nor does his chosen profession allow him to change from that disposition, either. So, it's a foregone conclusion. I got nothing from him, he takes nothing with him, and leaves us with nothing in return. The whole movie is just an exercise in style.

But, along with the Mann style, we get good writing and someone to root for in Manhunter. Not to mention some cheesy lines that help elevate the pleasure:
"It's just you and me now, sssss-port."
"Do you see?"
"How'z 'e do 'em, Will?"

And I find it works better, 'cause he's not asking us to take it seriously as a commentary on police or criminals, whereas Thief and Heat are.

I agree about Thief, maybe I would have liked it more initially if Caan's character was more likeable. Since then I've appreciated the character a lot more for being the frozen-hearted, stubborn bastard he is. But I love me some Petersen Will Graham.

[GaijinPunch]

Agree to disagree. Heat is the fucking bomb. I jizzed my pants when I saw it in the theater back in 1995. Thief I am much less drawn to (despite watching it when I lived in Chciago), but it's harder to laugh at than Manhunter. To each their own.

[sumdumgoy]

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[Sima Tuna]

But she's got a GREAT ASSSS!

And you've got your head, ALL THE WAY UP IT!

[sumdumgoy]

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[GaijinPunch]

If I find a film that ages as well as I do (and that's a high bar) I generally grow fonder of it, which is where I am with Heat.

[BIL]

Finally, a Michael Mann movie I can get behind! Here, his trademark use of style and music work in tandem with the characterisations, so instead of misstepping in his overreach for pathos in the theme of detachment (as in the loners of Thief and Heat), this story connects with the audience because the characters are connected to each other. Will's attachment to Lektor and Dollarhyde, Lektor's to Will and Dollarhyde, Will's family attachments, the attachments to his colleague Crawford, the FBI working in harmony with the local police, etc. Because to make it all work out, everyone has to get close to each other, even when it means risking vulnerability and exposure.

Same thing with Scarface; we love it when he hams it up with his accent inflections on words like 'cock-a-roach' and the famous "little friend" line. 'Cause when he's in his serious mode--that "my balls and my word" honor code--it's like, whatever. He's a murderer and a drug dealer. Who cares. We just want to see him ham it up when he's pissed off.

I think Heat was very much about attachment, down to the double meaning of its title. Specifically a man's failing efforts to deny it. De Niro endorsed solitude with his popular "When you feel the heat coming round the corner," admonishing just such vulnerability. But he couldn't live up to his own ideal. That's what drives the denouement: camaraderie and intimacy, a weary hermit coming undone precisely when he needed to drop everything and vanish back into his chilly non-life.

Scarface is somewhat opposite; that's the story of a megalomaniacal sociopath going out on precisely his stated terms. Buddy would've had an easy time if he hadn't blasted Tio Hector.

[sumdumgoy]

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[Lord British]

Heat left me cold

[sumdumgoy]

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[BIL]

So, the movie is about the detachment of rootless men who can't allow themselves to become personal with anyone or anything, because they can't. Nothing comes alive in their lives, because they have to drop whatever it is at any moment's notice to keep frosty in their chosen professions. Their professions practically demand it. Which is what the movie is saying, I get it... but I don't believe it. It's just an excuse for poor writing. Y'know how many career criminals are enjoying lives of cozy comfort, all with families and the rest of it, secure that the law will help cover for them? How many of them--police included--have a human side that reveals they are more than their job and their deeds? (This is what makes the backroom drama of The Godfather and Serpico so engrossing, both showcases for Pacino's capability.) Hell, even Will in Manhunter is capable of having a loving family without this whole, "Oh, I don't have anything interesting to talk about except work, honey... 'cause, you know, I don't have a personality or interests or hobbies outside of work... and since it's all bad news there, I'll just remain detached until you cheat on me."

Well, that's careerists for you. Pick any competitive field, you'll find no end of elite performers leading fantastically productive and miserably unfulfilling lives. The finance, legal, and medical sectors are lousy with them, and I hear the military and law enforcement don't fare much better. Never mind showbiz and/or politics! A professional heist ring fostering destructive personal outcomes is one of the less fantastical premises I've heard; certainly behind fellow Mann hits MurderGenius x SuperCop: Ganbare Willy-Chan! and sulkily irrepressible Yayo Papi Daisakusen.

The Godfather is a romantic fantasy, and especially mismatched here, set in the loftiest echelons of mafia aristocracy. What enthralling personal sagas do we hear of Al Neri, the hitter whose chosen station is to dress sharp and murder people, sometimes innocent, for great sums? The book does in fact give us a glimpse of his personal life, a frustrated shitshow just like Heat's crew.

It doesn't make for interesting character development. It just means Vincent and the criminals have roles they play for others, but it's not their true selves. Okay, fine... then let's see their true selves, right? The problem is their true selves aren't interesting, either! They're all defined by base traits--greed, juice, the moment. Nothing developed and nothing to relate to, 'cause they're all empty motivations. They just do the thing, and that's their job. They are their job, like marionettes, fueled by cold ruthlessness and a script that requires they rigidly adhere to it without any personality developed whatsoever.

That's what makes the personal drama impotent here. The relationships, the fighting, the cheating, the breakups... these scenes are boring. None of it is engrossing, and none of it gives us any insight into their characters. It's just trite drama, no different than a daytime soap. Even my wife, who is no movie buff, was getting impatient with these scenes, and I could hear her losing interest with every passing minute. And she loves Hallmark movies!

Sure, it makes for great, stylish action scenes (dat sound work!), but I'd sincerely like to see any fan of this movie jizzing themselves over the empty characterisations and soap opera in-between the meat.

But now you're describing the quality of the film's interpersonal drama - a bunch of depressed careerist sociopaths failing to be normal - which you were previously claiming didn't exist.

I think Heat was very much about attachment, down to the double meaning of its title. Specifically a man's failing efforts to deny it. De Niro endorsed solitude with his popular "When you see the heat coming round the corner," admonishing just such vulnerability. But he couldn't live up to his own ideal. That's what drives the denouement: camaraderie and intimacy, a weary hermit coming undone precisely when he needed to drop everything and vanish back into his cold non-life.

But that's the thing: Neil didn't need to kill Waingro!

Yes, thank you. He needed to be detached and suddenly couldn't be.

There was nothing in his code that demanded it. He was literally free and gone, vanishing complete. He didn't need to drop Eady, and Waingro had nothing on him that would lead Vincent or any police to him. No, there was no reason for him to drop Eady and vanish. He could've vanished with her, and she was even down for it. No, he willingly destroyed the intimacy with her; intimacy itself was not his undoing. He could have had it, and he threw it all away.

Again, yes, that's the tragedy of Neil's arc. He let something into his life that destroyed him. Or maybe it was always there and he simply lost control of it. Either way, he was fatally compromised by unchecked humanity. Unless we're to assume a reportedly impeccable pro was known for reckless personal indulgences, like the bludgeoning and execution of a trade rival in the direct aftermath of a failed heist.

And for what? Just to turn vigilante for his dead/lost buddies 'cause MUH CAMARADERIE?

Well, if that's the intimacy you were talking about--the true love between criminal bros--then "let's cut the mini-moves and the bullshit, and get on with this big romance!" (James Caan, Thief.)

I mean I find renowned Buddy Crim/One Last Job™ flick The Wild Bunch pretty tiresome; on my last rewatch, I'd no sympathy for the protagonists at all, regarding the legendary final blasting as no tragic last stand, but cathartic pest control. I've never felt that contempt for Unforgiven's murderous Will Munny. But that's a personal distaste on my part. It doesn't change the arc of Peckinpah's script any. A bunch of hardened killers got less hard and were promptly shattered.

I get finding Heat's bunch unsympathetic, they are a bunch of criminals unhappy in their gilded cage. But going from claiming the film's premise doesn't exist to pissing angrily all over it suggests you've personal issues with the characters themselves. A shitty soap is still a soap. >_>

Heat left me cold

Great minds and all that. I was thinking the same thing while typing.

I was too, tragically, referencing the title had already put my hack-o-meter in the red. I needed to walk away, and I did!

[sumdumgoy]

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[BIL]

I get finding Heat's bunch unsympathetic, they are a bunch of criminals unhappy in their gilded cage. But going from claiming the film's premise doesn't exist to pissing angrily all over it suggests you've personal issues with the characters themselves. A shitty soap is still a soap. >_>

You're claiming the movie is about attachment, I'm claiming the premise is about detachment.

I don't think those are mutually exclusive at all. Actually I'd say they're either side of the film's essential conflict. Heat is, like most dramas, about human frailty; the eroding effect of an ultra high-risk profession where unguarded humanity invites prison or the morgue. It's not an overly vivid picture, but given its cast - a mysterious cabal of elite heistmen, and the working stiffs who chase them - I don't think it could be.

Maybe a good comparison would be another De Niro highlight, Goodfellas, where the mobsters and their families exist in a cultish facsimile of regular life, the weaker amongst them quickly culled off - "I love dat car!" - until the whole thing collapses. Heat's cabal is like that with a patina of ex-military discipline, indeed it's the freak intrusion of a Tommy DeVito-esque cowboy that brings things crashing down. It's not a drama meant to reflect conventional living, rather its absence in service to a life of crime, and the warped personalities that creates.

I like Manhunter FWIW! I coulda swore I wrote a ~PRO REVIEW~ but I musta slept on it. Only saw it relatively recently. I've not seen Thief at all, might as well chuck that one on the backlog now I'm posting ITT again.

[NYN]

Uh, effeminate voice from the bookish sideline: call it belated and redundant, yet having read Heat 2 THE NOVEL, there is background given to Bobby's Neil, about a loss and he never got the guy (and inventing his detachment). GP can confirm it. So, when it comes to the point in the movie he strays from the path, which is shown as a anomaly or HEY KIDS: a twist near the end. Just that. Even Mann felt he had to back up the man much later in prose. Nice one, doesn't change the movie one bit.

[BIL]

tbh, I thought the diner scene established Neil's latent achilles well enough. A truly self-possessed general would've supressed his fury at a routine job turned RICO nightmare; allaying the already-spooked Waingro, before accompanying him out into the parking lot del MUERTE. Y'know, like Jimmy Conway disposing of a certain insufferable rug-selling twat so smoothly, not even lovable HENRY-KUN saw it coming.

Instead Neil savaged Waingro, putting him in total fight/flight mode, and boy did he fly when opportunity arrived. I don't think it was any calculated sadism on Neil's part, like wanting cowboy to go to his grave in fear. He just slapped the living piss out of him in a moment of futile rage.

EDIT: lmao, I'd forgotten just how bad Great Value Jake The Snake gets it. His head bounces off the table

Boiiing! The current time is:

Maybe Bobbo blamed heself for okaying the hire. :O Even august Jon Voight was all "The fuck were you thinking Robbo-kun!"

[Lord British]

Here's my current Top 30 favorite directors, which I update every so often. This time I list the films that do the "heavy lifting" that might influence my rankings. Some directors are consistent enough to me that no particular films do that much heavy lifting. So..

Spoiler

1. Stanley Kubrick (13) HL = none
2. Federico Fellini (14) HL = the ones starring Giulietta Masina, Satyricon, and this scene in "City of Women"
3. David Lynch (14) HL = The Twin Peaks Series, Blue Velvet, Mullholland Drive
4. Robert Altman (13) HL = Almost all 70's Output
5. The Archers/Michael Powell (11) Basically their most well known: TLADOCB, AMOLAD, Black Narcissus, The Red Shoes, Tales of Hoffman
6. Mike Leigh (15) HL = none really, favorites are Secrets and Lies and Abigail's Party
7. Ingmar Bergman (15) HL = none
8. Akira Kurosawa (13) HL = none
9. Luis Buñuel (17) HL = His French films (the latter 1/3 of his career), but he has gems throughout, though some misses for me ("El")
10. Eric Rohmer (18) HL = none, A Rohmer film is a Rohmer film, you like it or you don't
11. Rainer Werner Fassbinder (13) HL = Ali: Fear Eats the Soul
12. Michelangelo Antonioni (8) HL = Blow Up and L'Avventura
13. François Truffaut (13) = HL all movies starring Jean-Pierre Léaud (The Antoine Doinel saga)
14. Joel Coen (17) HL = Fargo, Raising Arizona
15. Masaki Kobayashi (6) HL = none
16. David Lean (8) HL = none
17. Alfred Hitchcock (16) HL = none, but just to piss some of you off I'll say I don't love Vertigo
18. Yasujirō Ozu (9) HL = Tokyo Story and Late Spring are the most recognized, but they're all very consistent in terms of quality (And ditto Re: Rohmer). Once you get to the color films, you'd wish they had all been in color
19. Brian DePalma (12) HL = Phantom of the Paradise and Body Double
20. Paul Thomas Andersen (9) HL = Hard Eight, Boogie Nights
21. Luchino Visconti (6) HL = Rocco and His Brothers, Death In Venice
22. Michael Haneke (10) HL = Cache, The Piano Teacher, Benny's Video
23. Werner Herzog (12) HL = Fitzcarraldo, Grizzly Man, The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser
24. Martin Scorsese (23) HL = After Hours, The King Of Comedy
25. Peter Bogdanovich (7) HL = The Last Picture Show, Targets
26. Michael Mann (8) HL = Manhunter, Theif
27. Hal Hartley (11) HL = Trust, Henry Fool
28. Sergio Leone (6) HL = Once Upon A TIme In The West
29. Errol Morris (7) HL = none, favorite pure doc maker
30. Max Ophüls (6) HL = none, one of the best visual directors

[GaijinPunch]

Uh, effeminate voice from the bookish sideline: call it belated and redundant, yet having read Heat 2 THE NOVEL, there is background given to Bobby's Neil, about a loss and he never got the guy (and inventing his detachment). GP can confirm it. So, when it comes to the point in the movie he strays from the path, which is shown as a anomaly or HEY KIDS: a twist near the end. Just that. Even Mann felt he had to back up the man much later in prose. Nice one, doesn't change the movie one bit.

Loved the book, too! Let's also not forget, Mann had the stories of all of the characters done and dusted before Heat made it to script. Even the minor characters. Whether that was conveyed to a bunch nerds in a forum well enough or not is another story.

Fun Fact: The actor who played Waingrow served time for cannabis production. I remember reading about it at the time, and of course, in lock up, guards and prisoners both called him "Waingro".

[BIL]

17. Alfred Hitchcock (16) HL = none, but just to piss some of you off I'll say I don't love Vertigo

Shoulda said Rope I like that one no matter how they dunk on it (■｀w´■)

of course, in lock up, guards and prisoners both called him "Waingro".

[sumdumgoy]

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[sumdumgoy]

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[Lord British]

Here's my current Top 30 favorite directors, which I update every so often. This time I list the films that do the "heavy lifting" that might influence my rankings. Some directors are consistent enough to me that no particular films do that much heavy lifting. So..

Spoiler

1. Stanley Kubrick (13) HL = none
2. Federico Fellini (14) HL = the ones starring Giulietta Masina, Satyricon, and this scene in "City of Women"
3. David Lynch (14) HL = The Twin Peaks Series, Blue Velvet, Mullholland Drive
4. Robert Altman (13) HL = Almost all 70's Output
5. The Archers/Michael Powell (11) Basically their most well known: TLADOCP, AMOLAD, Black Narcissus, The Red Shoes, Tales of Hoffman
6. Mike Leigh (15) HL = none really, favorites are Secrets and Lies and Abigail's Party
7. Ingmar Bergman (15) HL = none
8. Akira Kurosawa (13) HL = none
9. Luis Buñuel (17) HL = His French films (the latter 1/3 of his career), but he has gems throughout, though some misses for me ("El")
10. Eric Rohmer (18) HL = none, A Rohmer film is a Rohmer film, you like it or you don't
11. Rainer Werner Fassbinder (13) HL = Ali: Fear Eats the Soul
12. Michelangelo Antonioni (8) HL = Blow Up and L'Avventura
13. François Truffaut (13) = HL all movies starring Jean-Pierre Léaud (The Antoine Doinel saga)
14. Joel Coen (17) HL = Fargo, Raising Arizona
15. Masaki Kobayashi (6) HL = none
16. David Lean (8) HL = none
17. Alfred Hitchcock (16) HL = none, but just to piss some of you off I'll say I don't love Vertigo
18. Yasujirō Ozu (9) HL = Tokyo Story and Late Spring are the most recognized, but they're all very consistent in terms of quality (And ditto Re: Rohmer). Once you get to the color films, you'd wish they had all been in color
19. Brian DePalma (12) HL = Phantom of the Paradise and Body Double
20. Paul Thomas Andersen (9) HL = Hard Eight, Boogie Nights
21. Luchino Visconti (6) HL = Rocco and His Brothers, Death In Venice
22. Michael Haneke (10) HL = Cache, The Piano Teacher, Benny's Video
23. Werner Herzog (12) HL = Fitzcarraldo, Grizzly Man, The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser
24. Martin Scorsese (23) HL = After Hours, The King Of Comedy
25. Peter Bogdanovich (7) HL = The Last Picture Show, Targets
26. Michael Mann (8) HL = Manhunter, Theif
27. Hal Hartley (11) HL = Trust, Henry Fool
28. Sergio Leone (6) HL = Once Upon A TIme In The West
29. Errol Morris (7) HL = none, favorite pure doc maker
30. Max Ophüls (6) HL = none, one of the best visual directors

> tfw John Carpenter is missing from their list.

I think my favorite JC is The Fog. Not much of a Cronenberg fan either unfortunately, No Argento here either, though I love Suspiria and Deep Red.

I guess DePalma is my guy for thrills. And Haneke.

[Lord British]

Just wanted to post and say thanks to everybody for the engagement. I love deep-diving into movies and sharing my passion for them, and your input is greatly appreciated, even when we differ.

Cheers!

P.S. I miss RGC... wonder where he went?

Glad you joined up, and thanks for your reviews! They're being read.

[sumdumgoy]

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[sumdumgoy]

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[sumdumgoy]

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