Shmups as an artform.

[sumdumgoy]

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[BulletMagnet]

The one major thing I'd change about your take is replacing "overrate" with "rate higher than others might", as the former suggests the existence of a universally agreed-upon metric by which games - or anything else - ought to be judged, when no two people experience the same thing the exact same way.

Aesthetics are going to be a part of pretty much any game you play, and certain people will, for any number of reasons, be more affected by a particular element than others, to infinitely varying degrees; IMO there's nothing wrong with this as long as you're willing to acknowledge it to both yourself and others when the topic comes up. You don't need to enjoy every game you play for the same reason.

If you want to make things more shmup-centric, oftentimes on here when a newer player asks for advice on which specific games to try, a frequent reply is "just check out whatever looks cool to you" - back in the genre's heyday you usually didn't walk up to an arcade machine because you'd done in-depth research about it, but because something about it caught your attention over all the others. The more "levels" on which you can connect with a game, as you say, the better the chance you'll stick with it long enough to "fully" experience and appreciate it for what it is to you, whether a timeless classic or a passing curiosity.

[sumdumgoy]

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[dai jou bu]

I think the trouble is that I'm trying to expand on something that is known amongst the experienced, but hard to put into words. Like the way many consider The Godfather to be a masterpiece - whether you enjoy it or not, there's a certain unspoken quality there that is above the norm, that is not like other movies. It's an intuitive thing rather than a subjective like. That is the thing I think would be considered "art." Like a talent.

This “thing” you’re referring to is craftsmanship. High craftsmanship is what makes people begrudgingly acknowledge a work/product/etc. even though they vehemently disagree with it (ie- “I hate how ikaruga plays and wish the shmup I love to play had that level of production quality though”).

Hope that helps

[To Far Away Times]

I think sometimes you see fairly average games get elevated by one really good thing and that makes it more obvious what is doing the heavy lifting. The aforementioned M.U.S.H.A. is a good example, though I think it's game play is solid enough for what it sets out to do. The music elevates the game for me, but the music isn't so strong to push it into GOAT territory, at least for me. Music is also probably the easiest way to get the player to feel something, and don't you just feel your blood pumping during that first stage of M.U.S.H.A. with that kick ass song? It's great, right?

Aesthetics are important. I think this will be shocking to some people, but I think they're actually more important than game play.

Now, that doesn't mean that a bad game with good aesthetics can be a great game. But with a solid or average playing game, the sky is truly the limit with how far aesthetics can carry a game.

I regularly put Thunderforce III in my Top 5 shmups list when we do the bi-yearly voting. Yeah, I know there are more mechanically better games. And there's more than five of them out there. I never played Thunderforce as a kid, so I have no nostalgia for it. But Thunderforce III certainly plays well enough, and it makes me feel something because of the combination of the craftsmanship, the production values and the aesthetics. I'm not just piloting a ship and dodging bullets. I'm constantly active and aggressively crushing the enemy. I'm taking out the big set piece bosses in seconds with overwhelming firepower. My lizard brain lights up because of the awesome riffs, how powerful my ship is and the frantic speed of the game. It's a fever dream and a power trip. It's such an easy game to root for.

That's worth more to me than say a game like DoDonPachi which plays better but doesn't make me feel the same way.

That's the art. How do you take the pieces and make something greater than the whole?

[nogden]

I think games are always elevated on an individual level due to a specific artistic design, since that’s the plain they exist in and the fact that people are biased. Like you say, people will be different in whether they prefer the visuals, music etc. So on a personal level, yes.

If you want to talk about how these games are rated on a larger scale, there’s not much to go on except for this site’s top 25 list, which is great. Just know that the players as a whole on this site will probably slightly prioritize the gameplay loop/scoring aspect of the games over other aspects. Not that I disagree, I also prioritize those over music, art style etc. But LUCKILY the “best games” tend to be somewhat of a total package. Look at Garegga, DOJ and Ketsui. None of them are the most gorgeous, and they definitely don’t include lustful characters. But none are ugly either. They have banger ass soundtracks, depth and a gameplay loop akin to virtual crack.

But since you’re only asking if some games are overly rated due to certain aspects I’d say yes of course. But I think the list on here is generally balanced.

[Lander]

Another example is the art style. I can't help but feel like certain anime shmups are held in higher regard, not because the game successfully incorporates all high-art elements into one harmonious whole, but because the player has a crush on their in-game waifu and won't publicly admit that's what biases them to overlook the game's other artistic shortcomings, so they overrate it. I could even almost swear this kind of personal bias is the reason why shmups with lust-provoking images don the charts (looking at you, CAVE), even when other artful considerations of the game admittedly fall short.

This is certainly a phenomenon, one that easily extends beyond shmups. The anime style - being simple and flexible - is such a well-enumerated quantity at this point that tuning it to bring in a specific demographic is easier (and more creatively bankrupt!) than ever.

For extreme examples, we can take Genshin, Honkai, Zenless, or whatever derivative isekai wank is bottom-feeding the ad systems of the internet this week. Some of those are well-produced, but all are pretty transparent when it comes to scooping up the lowest-common-denominator; it's about appeal, not art.

Part of me feels like shmups dropped out of the mainstream early enough to avoid the full erosive brunt of everything including the vatican is anime now - even the more cheesecakey examples from the old guard tend to pale in comparison to the current no-holds-barred race for the bottom - but that's probably a matter of relativity, and the fact that I don't go looking for it.

Which isn't to say anime is exclusively bad, but genuinely good work recedes into the corners of any given domain that breaks big. Can't have picky old grognards with difficult-to-satisfy ideas like 'taste' and 'familiarity' getting in the way of endless growth.

[sumdumgoy]

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[To Far Away Times]

Another example is the art style. I can't help but feel like certain anime shmups are held in higher regard, not because the game successfully incorporates all high-art elements into one harmonious whole, but because the player has a crush on their in-game waifu and won't publicly admit that's what biases them to overlook the game's other artistic shortcomings, so they overrate it. I could even almost swear this kind of personal bias is the reason why shmups with lust-provoking images don the charts (looking at you, CAVE), even when other artful considerations of the game admittedly fall short.

This is certainly a phenomenon, one that easily extends beyond shmups. The anime style - being simple and flexible - is such a well-enumerated quantity at this point that tuning it to bring in a specific demographic is easier (and more creatively bankrupt!) than ever.

For extreme examples, we can take Genshin, Honkai, Zenless, or whatever derivative isekai wank is bottom-feeding the ad systems of the internet this week. Some of those are well-produced, but all are pretty transparent when it comes to scooping up the lowest-common-denominator; it's about appeal, not art.

Part of me feels like shmups dropped out of the mainstream early enough to avoid the full erosive brunt of everything including the vatican is anime now - even the more cheesecakey examples from the old guard tend to pale in comparison to the current no-holds-barred race for the bottom - but that's probably a matter of relativity, and the fact that I don't go looking for it.

Which isn't to say anime is exclusively bad, but genuinely good work recedes into the corners of any given domain that breaks big. Can't have picky old grognards with difficult-to-satisfy ideas like 'taste' and 'familiarity' getting in the way of endless growth.

I have a couple of issues with anime (that’s not to say it’s all bad; Studio Ghibli, Cowboy Bebop, Deathnote… there’s some great stuff out there) but anime often does feel like a race to the bottom trying to unify around a single art style that’s long been drained of any artistic quality.

Then of course there’s some of the anime mannerisms and the lolicon stuff that really just sours the whole thing.

Those gotcha games where players do “pulls” to get jpegs of their favorite loli are just so tasteless.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Thunder Force IV is basically the pinnacle of 'meh game, insane production' in my eyes, and I've seen people here agree with that opinion.

Another example would be Einhander, for an admittedly better game...that's still widely remembered for its appearance and sound more than gameplay.

Ultimately, a game is a fusion of media. There's nothing wrong with games being remembered more for their art than their game design, though most people, including myself will tell you that when making a game, focusing on making it play well before anything is the best, so that's the current consensus. Things weren't always this way, and many historical developers really did focus more on art, graphics and whatnot because it was more popular back then.

[eksratu]

Great points in here. To add my two cents, I think the idea of "a realm that the game rightfully belongs" is hard to define. Similar to what BulletMagnet said about subjective tastes, different people also have different metrics about how a game "should" be evaluated. I know a lot of people prioritize craftsmenship, but I also know a lot of people give a lot of weight to innovative ideas. And others yet believe games should be judged based on what you describe as artistic merit--a "good game" should elicit some kind of emotional reaction first and foremost.

This makes a game's "rightful place" really really hard to define, because even if two people agreed upon how much each aspect of a game should be weighted, they'd still have their own opinions about what is good within that aspect.

[BulletMagnet]

Like the way many consider The Godfather to be a masterpiece - whether you enjoy it or not, there's a certain unspoken quality there that is above the norm, that is not like other movies. It's an intuitive thing rather than a subjective like.

DJB's "craftsmanship" reply does hit close to the mark, I think, though I would argue that even this is subjective to a degree; I would guess that most of us can recall a movie/show/game we saw back when we were younger that didn't do much for us then, but later in life when we've both experienced and discussed a wider range of stuff and learned more about how they're made - especially if you've since worked in a creative field yourself and have a firsthand idea of how much effort goes into even a middling final product - you look at it anew and think "man, I've got a new appreciation for this".

Even when it comes to aspects of a piece of work that have become largely agreed-upon metrics for judging something's "overall" quality, everyone sees those through different lenses too, so even if most folks can generally concur that something is at least good "on paper" there will always be divergences in just how much that "on paper" value will count towards an individual's overall judgment.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

As an artist myself, "anything goes in the art world" which is true, regardless of the medium (whatever that may be) that it's created with. Take cartooning or the nationally syndicated comic strip as illustrated examples, the creator's intent to deliver "the punchline" in one, two, three, four or even five cartoon strip panels as the established methodology/protocol to get the message/story delivered to the masses -- so be it.

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Take the classic PC Engine Super CD-Rom2 stg of "Gate of Thunder" circa 1991 (which was included as a "pack-in game" if you bought an TTI {Turbo Technologies Incorporated -- a joint collaborative business deal between NEC and Hudson Soft} produced Turbo Duo console in the USA back in 1992) as an example, it's a sly carbon-copy riff/take on the Mega Drive/Sega Genesis Thunder Force stg series (but if you load it up & play it on a Japanese candy cab setup, you can easily see that it was designed to equally be played on a candy cab in addition to being played at home as originally intended as well -- complete with the slick and novel continue "countdown" screen to elevate it to cult status nowadays).

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Of course nowadays, you'd need a PC Engine/Core Grafx/Core Grafx II/TurboGrafx-16 gaming console + a Krikzz Turbo Everdrive Pro flashcart + Krikzz EDFX pcb + obligatory Gate of Thunder bin.cue rip = priceless joy -- it's doable and playable without the physical need to use an actual NEC CD-Rom2 Interface/Super CD-Rom2 Interface/TurboGrafx CD add-on component necessary and you're in business playing it properly on real gaming hardware. For bonus points, add an Arthimus manufactured Console to Jamma "JammaIZER" v1 or v2 pcb along with the above previously mentioned listed items to play GoT flawlessly on a candy cab setup indeed. How cool is that?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[PFG 9000]

I think the OP's comments on anime characters in shmups is a bit out of place in a discussion of games-as-art. Of course there are elements of art even in something like Rumble Roses or Leisue Suit Larry. But usually when we debate whether games can be considered art, we focus on more highbrow/respectable work like Journey.

I feel it's perfectly acceptable to "overrate" a game due to its artistic qualities. Shadow of the Colossus can easily be criticized for its sometimes-frustrating controls, and I can absolutely understand those criticisms. But its value as an artistic powerhouse more than makes up for those control deficiencies, especially since they serve to illustrate the struggles of the protagonist as he flails around like a fly clinging to the giant beasts.

I think it's possible to argue that a shmup is a form of art, but it's a harder argument to make (compared to something like Yoshi's Island) because shmups are a refined, gameplay-centric genre. Games like Pong or Minesweeper are mostly gameplay with only a small artistic aspect, whereas something like Linger in Shadows or The Stanley Parable are more art and less game. Shmups lean toward the former category, more gameplay and less artsy. But that just makes the argument more challenging, not futile. I would suggest examples like Gradius Gaiden or Jamestown rather than Steam Hearts, but I'm sure there are much better examples than those.

[BulletMagnet]

I think it's possible to argue that a shmup is a form of art, but it's a harder argument to make (compared to something like Yoshi's Island) because shmups are a refined, gameplay-centric genre. Games like Pong or Minesweeper are mostly gameplay with only a small artistic aspect, whereas something like Linger in Shadows or The Stanley Parable are more art and less game. Shmups lean toward the former category, more gameplay and less artsy.

That's a whole new kettle of fish in and of itself, depending on how broad the discussion of "art" is; if you're strictly talking presentation, what you say above pretty much does the job.

If you wanted to stretch out a bit more, though, I think there's a good argument to make that mastery of the "gameplay side" of things is an art in and of itself; though I suppose most would be more likely to file that stuff under "design", it's still hardly a completely subjective judgment to make, and the complete blend of how controls are tweaked, the difficulty ramp, how much is explained outright to the player versus what they need to figure out themselves, and everything else to that end doesn't follow one set of rules to be successful, and will inevitably invoke the same je ne sais quoi among certain players as any "purely" artistic element would.

[davyK]

When it comes to art, it is meant to convey an idea or a feeling.

A famous artist (Francis Bacon) once said that if you could describe a painting in words then there was no need to create the painting. A painting should say something that cannot be written down.

So - if a shmup can convey a feeling that cannot be adequately described in writing then perhaps it is a work of art. That feeling I get with some games with enemy wave formations that produce a feeling of pleasure that is hard to describe for example (level 5 of Gigawing or most levels of Mushi Futari for me) so maybe they are works of art?

Some bullet patterns can be aesthetically pleasing - but as to whether they are works of art comes down to the effect it has on the individual.

[Lander]

I'd make the case that the very first incarnation of Tetris, rendered via text mode on an Elektronika 60 in the straight-laced halls of CC RAS, was art.

As Alexey Pajitnov would later be quoted - when it begins to breathe, that is when you know you have something special. I always found that quite profound, as a student of the medium; effectively sums up the process oft referred to as 'finding the fun', but I think it can extend to more or less any act of inspired creation that elicits an intended (or unintended, even) effect. It's about trying to refract that inspiration - a unique thing experienced individually - into something tangible and shareable.

By extension, I'd say any shmup is permissible, even if many will fall short of the towering notions of true art; be that because their inspirations are fiscal, not fully formed, or had the minerals but didn't find a cult or conventional audience. And then there's the whole 'eye of the beholder' mire; I may not care for Raiden V's coffee subplot, or having a prism of a personality archetype nattering away in the corner of the HUD, but they speak to some, so who am I to draw a line on what art actually is?

Anyway, the whole thing's a mess. Normal business in matters subjective

(As an aside, bless Pajitnov's cotton socks. For how massive of a smash hit Tetris became after escaping the iron curtain, the man is still humble to a fault.)

[Bassa-Bassa]

I can't help but feel like certain anime shmups are held in higher regard, not because the game successfully incorporates all high-art elements into one harmonious whole, but because the player has a crush on their in-game waifu and won't publicly admit that's what biases them to overlook the game's other artistic shortcomings, so they overrate it. I could even almost swear this kind of personal bias is the reason why shmups with lust-provoking images don the charts (looking at you, CAVE), even when other artful considerations of the game admittedly fall short.

Do you think like this with most Cave games or just had a particular game in mind? If it's the former, how's your experience with these games, regarding the hardware and versions you knew them with?

[sumdumgoy]

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[To Far Away Times]

DDP's a cool game for sure, but it's held back by only having three songs and they're in some of the lowest audio quality you'll ever hear too. They're not bad songs, but sometimes they feel like jam tracks with some noodling. Like they aren't even fully realized songs. DDP DOJ fixes the music, has more fully realized artistic design (no garish colors everywhere), and it's pretty much a better game in every way.

Deathsmiles is an interesting one, since it's got some of my favorite CAVE game play and the general spooky vibes of the game is A+, but the loli stuff is just... ugh.

Mushi (and Mushi Futari) is CAVE firing on all cylinders. It's got the art, the music, the game play, all of it.

[sumdumgoy]

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