Shmups as an artform.

[sumdumgoy]

Please bear with me. I'm a new user here, previously lurking for about two years, and I risk exposing myself as possibly pretentious with this question. But it's something that has been plaguing me for a long time, and I've finally found courage to try and word this as best as possible without trying to start some flame war, 'cause some of what I'm about to say will probably piss some people off. But, I'm being serious.

I appeal mostly to the older, more experienced shmuppers on this site to answer this topic as honestly as they can.

My question is this: is it possible that certain shmups are being overrated, because specific artistic elements (influenced by personal bias) elevate the game's experience to a higher realm than the game rightfully belongs?

The best argument for games as an artform are, I believe, the examples of the medium in which every element comes together into one harmonious whole that is without peer. Not just the gameplay or the scoring, but the sound design, the environments, the artwork, the graphics, the pace, the music... all lending themselves to complete a certain overall feel when you experience them that tells you this isn't just another video game. This is art. Of course, personal bias is going to make this a subjective thing, but it's also an intuitive thing, too, as you find when you gain more experience with the more games you play. You not only know when something is for you or not, but you'll also know the difference between shovelware and Shinola.

For example, regarding movies, if someone put a gun to my head and said, "Pick one, or else..." I'd have to admit my personal favourite has always been Seven Samurai. And even though I've watched thousands of movies in my lifetime and have gained immense experience and a finely-tuned intuition... for me, if I'm honest, subjective or not, none of them can touch it, particularly when objectively considering every element that makes a movie great. The camerawork, the framing, the lighting, the editing, the pacing, the music, the script, the story, the dialogue, the acting, the direction. It's just as absolutely perfect as something can possibly get in this mortal realm.

Now, back to shmups. I've been listening to Espgaluda II's OST lately, and it got me to thinking about how, I believe, some shmups are more highly regarded because of their soundtrack, not in spite of it. 'Cause I don't find that particular CAVE game to be one whose gameplay draws me back to it, yet the music calls me. Another one that comes to mind in this same vein is, in my opinion, M.U.S.H.A. -- awesome music covering for what is, admittedly, just an average gameplay experience, yet one is held in very high regard by many gamers.

Another example is the art style. I can't help but feel like certain anime shmups are held in higher regard, not because the game successfully incorporates all high-art elements into one harmonious whole, but because the player has a crush on their in-game waifu and won't publicly admit that's what biases them to overlook the game's other artistic shortcomings, so they overrate it. I could even almost swear this kind of personal bias is the reason why shmups with lust-provoking images don the charts (looking at you, CAVE), even when other artful considerations of the game admittedly fall short.

Do you think there's any truth to this?
Or have I simply had too much to think?

Thanks for reading.

[BulletMagnet]

The one major thing I'd change about your take is replacing "overrate" with "rate higher than others might", as the former suggests the existence of a universally agreed-upon metric by which games - or anything else - ought to be judged, when no two people experience the same thing the exact same way.

Aesthetics are going to be a part of pretty much any game you play, and certain people will, for any number of reasons, be more affected by a particular element than others, to infinitely varying degrees; IMO there's nothing wrong with this as long as you're willing to acknowledge it to both yourself and others when the topic comes up. You don't need to enjoy every game you play for the same reason.

If you want to make things more shmup-centric, oftentimes on here when a newer player asks for advice on which specific games to try, a frequent reply is "just check out whatever looks cool to you" - back in the genre's heyday you usually didn't walk up to an arcade machine because you'd done in-depth research about it, but because something about it caught your attention over all the others. The more "levels" on which you can connect with a game, as you say, the better the chance you'll stick with it long enough to "fully" experience and appreciate it for what it is to you, whether a timeless classic or a passing curiosity.

[sumdumgoy]

The one major thing I'd change about your take is replacing "overrate" with "rate higher than others might", as the former suggests the existence of a universally agreed-upon metric by which games - or anything else - ought to be judged, when no two people experience the same thing the exact same way.

Aesthetics are going to be a part of pretty much any game you play, and certain people will, for any number of reasons, be more affected by a particular element than others, to infinitely varying degrees; IMO there's nothing wrong with this as long as you're willing to acknowledge it to both yourself and others when the topic comes up. You don't need to enjoy every game you play for the same reason.

If you want to make things more shmup-centric, oftentimes on here when a newer player asks for advice on which specific games to try, a frequent reply is "just check out whatever looks cool to you" - back in the genre's heyday you usually didn't walk up to an arcade machine because you'd done in-depth research about it, but because something about it caught your attention over all the others. The more "levels" on which you can connect with a game, as you say, the better the chance you'll stick with it long enough to "fully" experience and appreciate it for what it is to you, whether a timeless classic or a passing curiosity.

That was a very thoughtful reply. Thank you.

I think the trouble is that I'm trying to expand on something that is known amongst the experienced, but hard to put into words. Like the way many consider The Godfather to be a masterpiece - whether you enjoy it or not, there's a certain unspoken quality there that is above the norm, that is not like other movies. It's an intuitive thing rather than a subjective like. That is the thing I think would be considered "art." Like a talent.

[dai jou bu]

I think the trouble is that I'm trying to expand on something that is known amongst the experienced, but hard to put into words. Like the way many consider The Godfather to be a masterpiece - whether you enjoy it or not, there's a certain unspoken quality there that is above the norm, that is not like other movies. It's an intuitive thing rather than a subjective like. That is the thing I think would be considered "art." Like a talent.

This “thing” you’re referring to is craftsmanship. High craftsmanship is what makes people begrudgingly acknowledge a work/product/etc. even though they vehemently disagree with it (ie- “I hate how ikaruga plays and wish the shmup I love to play had that level of production quality though”).

Hope that helps

[To Far Away Times]

I think sometimes you see fairly average games get elevated by one really good thing and that makes it more obvious what is doing the heavy lifting. The aforementioned M.U.S.H.A. is a good example, though I think it's game play is solid enough for what it sets out to do. The music elevates the game for me, but the music isn't so strong to push it into GOAT territory, at least for me. Music is also probably the easiest way to get the player to feel something, and don't you just feel your blood pumping during that first stage of M.U.S.H.A. with that kick ass song? It's great, right?

Aesthetics are important. I think this will be shocking to some people, but I think they're actually more important than game play.

Now, that doesn't mean that a bad game with good aesthetics can be a great game. But with a solid or average playing game, the sky is truly the limit with how far aesthetics can carry a game.

I regularly put Thunderforce III in my Top 5 shmups list when we do the bi-yearly voting. Yeah, I know there are more mechanically better games. And there's more than five of them out there. I never played Thunderforce as a kid, so I have no nostalgia for it. But Thunderforce III certainly plays well enough, and it makes me feel something because of the combination of the craftsmanship, the production values and the aesthetics. I'm not just piloting a ship and dodging bullets. I'm constantly active and aggressively crushing the enemy. I'm taking out the big set piece bosses in seconds with overwhelming firepower. My lizard brain lights up because of the awesome riffs, how powerful my ship is and the frantic speed of the game. It's a fever dream and a power trip. It's such an easy game to root for.

That's worth more to me than say a game like DoDonPachi which plays better but doesn't make me feel the same way.

That's the art. How do you take the pieces and make something greater than the whole?

[nogden]

I think games are always elevated on an individual level due to a specific artistic design, since that’s the plain they exist in and the fact that people are biased. Like you say, people will be different in whether they prefer the visuals, music etc. So on a personal level, yes.

If you want to talk about how these games are rated on a larger scale, there’s not much to go on except for this site’s top 25 list, which is great. Just know that the players as a whole on this site will probably slightly prioritize the gameplay loop/scoring aspect of the games over other aspects. Not that I disagree, I also prioritize those over music, art style etc. But LUCKILY the “best games” tend to be somewhat of a total package. Look at Garegga, DOJ and Ketsui. None of them are the most gorgeous, and they definitely don’t include lustful characters. But none are ugly either. They have banger ass soundtracks, depth and a gameplay loop akin to virtual crack.

But since you’re only asking if some games are overly rated due to certain aspects I’d say yes of course. But I think the list on here is generally balanced.

[Lander]

Another example is the art style. I can't help but feel like certain anime shmups are held in higher regard, not because the game successfully incorporates all high-art elements into one harmonious whole, but because the player has a crush on their in-game waifu and won't publicly admit that's what biases them to overlook the game's other artistic shortcomings, so they overrate it. I could even almost swear this kind of personal bias is the reason why shmups with lust-provoking images don the charts (looking at you, CAVE), even when other artful considerations of the game admittedly fall short.

This is certainly a phenomenon, one that easily extends beyond shmups. The anime style - being simple and flexible - is such a well-enumerated quantity at this point that tuning it to bring in a specific demographic is easier (and more creatively bankrupt!) than ever.

For extreme examples, we can take Genshin, Honkai, Zenless, or whatever derivative isekai wank is bottom-feeding the ad systems of the internet this week. Some of those are well-produced, but all are pretty transparent when it comes to scooping up the lowest-common-denominator; it's about appeal, not art.

Part of me feels like shmups dropped out of the mainstream early enough to avoid the full erosive brunt of everything including the vatican is anime now - even the more cheesecakey examples from the old guard tend to pale in comparison to the current no-holds-barred race for the bottom - but that's probably a matter of relativity, and the fact that I don't go looking for it.

Which isn't to say anime is exclusively bad, but genuinely good work recedes into the corners of any given domain that breaks big. Can't have picky old grognards with difficult-to-satisfy ideas like 'taste' and 'familiarity' getting in the way of endless growth.

[sumdumgoy]

Really great replies in this thread! Lots to chew on here. Thank you all.

"Craftsmanship" is the word I'm looking for, yes. I think it's 'cause I'm older and have less time now than I did in my youth, that I'm less forgiving of a game that doesn't hit those quality notes and falls short in one area or more.

Danmaku Unlimited 3 is another example - nailed the gameplay, but the look and sound of the game turns me off enough to take me out of the flow state... that trve cvlt metal music and backgrounds that look like EastAsiaSoft doing Ikaruga. Like I'm sitting there during gameplay, acutely aware that I'm holding a controller and making inputs just for the sake of playing it. It's literally leaving me time to think during the experience itself. That's how much it puts me out of the flow state 'cause the (what I feel to be) artistic shortcomings place me at a distance from a complete melding of player and game into one.

More crudely put, it's like making love to a woman you have no chemistry with; you're just going through the motions, and the lack of chemistry is enough during the act to leave you space to think, "Why am I doing this? I'm not even enjoying myself! I need find marriage material."

[To Far Away Times]

Another example is the art style. I can't help but feel like certain anime shmups are held in higher regard, not because the game successfully incorporates all high-art elements into one harmonious whole, but because the player has a crush on their in-game waifu and won't publicly admit that's what biases them to overlook the game's other artistic shortcomings, so they overrate it. I could even almost swear this kind of personal bias is the reason why shmups with lust-provoking images don the charts (looking at you, CAVE), even when other artful considerations of the game admittedly fall short.

This is certainly a phenomenon, one that easily extends beyond shmups. The anime style - being simple and flexible - is such a well-enumerated quantity at this point that tuning it to bring in a specific demographic is easier (and more creatively bankrupt!) than ever.

For extreme examples, we can take Genshin, Honkai, Zenless, or whatever derivative isekai wank is bottom-feeding the ad systems of the internet this week. Some of those are well-produced, but all are pretty transparent when it comes to scooping up the lowest-common-denominator; it's about appeal, not art.

Part of me feels like shmups dropped out of the mainstream early enough to avoid the full erosive brunt of everything including the vatican is anime now - even the more cheesecakey examples from the old guard tend to pale in comparison to the current no-holds-barred race for the bottom - but that's probably a matter of relativity, and the fact that I don't go looking for it.

Which isn't to say anime is exclusively bad, but genuinely good work recedes into the corners of any given domain that breaks big. Can't have picky old grognards with difficult-to-satisfy ideas like 'taste' and 'familiarity' getting in the way of endless growth.

I have a couple of issues with anime (that’s not to say it’s all bad; Studio Ghibli, Cowboy Bebop, Deathnote… there’s some great stuff out there) but anime often does feel like a race to the bottom trying to unify around a single art style that’s long been drained of any artistic quality.

Then of course there’s some of the anime mannerisms and the lolicon stuff that really just sours the whole thing.

Those gotcha games where players do “pulls” to get jpegs of their favorite loli are just so tasteless.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Thunder Force IV is basically the pinnacle of 'meh game, insane production' in my eyes, and I've seen people here agree with that opinion.

Another example would be Einhander, for an admittedly better game...that's still widely remembered for its appearance and sound more than gameplay.

Ultimately, a game is a fusion of media. There's nothing wrong with games being remembered more for their art than their game design, though most people, including myself will tell you that when making a game, focusing on making it play well before anything is the best, so that's the current consensus. Things weren't always this way, and many historical developers really did focus more on art, graphics and whatnot because it was more popular back then.

[eksratu]

Great points in here. To add my two cents, I think the idea of "a realm that the game rightfully belongs" is hard to define. Similar to what BulletMagnet said about subjective tastes, different people also have different metrics about how a game "should" be evaluated. I know a lot of people prioritize craftsmenship, but I also know a lot of people give a lot of weight to innovative ideas. And others yet believe games should be judged based on what you describe as artistic merit--a "good game" should elicit some kind of emotional reaction first and foremost.

This makes a game's "rightful place" really really hard to define, because even if two people agreed upon how much each aspect of a game should be weighted, they'd still have their own opinions about what is good within that aspect.

[BulletMagnet]

Like the way many consider The Godfather to be a masterpiece - whether you enjoy it or not, there's a certain unspoken quality there that is above the norm, that is not like other movies. It's an intuitive thing rather than a subjective like.

DJB's "craftsmanship" reply does hit close to the mark, I think, though I would argue that even this is subjective to a degree; I would guess that most of us can recall a movie/show/game we saw back when we were younger that didn't do much for us then, but later in life when we've both experienced and discussed a wider range of stuff and learned more about how they're made - especially if you've since worked in a creative field yourself and have a firsthand idea of how much effort goes into even a middling final product - you look at it anew and think "man, I've got a new appreciation for this".

Even when it comes to aspects of a piece of work that have become largely agreed-upon metrics for judging something's "overall" quality, everyone sees those through different lenses too, so even if most folks can generally concur that something is at least good "on paper" there will always be divergences in just how much that "on paper" value will count towards an individual's overall judgment.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

As an artist myself, "anything goes in the art world" which is true, regardless of the medium (whatever that may be) that it's created with. Take cartooning or the nationally syndicated comic strip as illustrated examples, the creator's intent to deliver "the punchline" in one, two, three, four or even five cartoon strip panels as the established methodology/protocol to get the message/story delivered to the masses -- so be it.

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Take the classic PC Engine Super CD-Rom2 stg of "Gate of Thunder" circa 1991 (which was included as a "pack-in game" if you bought an TTI {Turbo Technologies Incorporated -- a joint collaborative business deal between NEC and Hudson Soft} produced Turbo Duo console in the USA back in 1992) as an example, it's a sly carbon-copy riff/take on the Mega Drive/Sega Genesis Thunder Force stg series (but if you load it up & play it on a Japanese candy cab setup, you can easily see that it was designed to equally be played on a candy cab in addition to being played at home as originally intended as well -- complete with the slick and novel continue "countdown" screen to elevate it to cult status nowadays).

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Of course nowadays, you'd need a PC Engine/Core Grafx/Core Grafx II/TurboGrafx-16 gaming console + a Krikzz Turbo Everdrive Pro flashcart + Krikzz EDFX pcb + obligatory Gate of Thunder bin.cue rip = priceless joy -- it's doable and playable without the physical need to use an actual NEC CD-Rom2 Interface/Super CD-Rom2 Interface/TurboGrafx CD add-on component necessary and you're in business playing it properly on real gaming hardware. For bonus points, add an Arthimus manufactured Console to Jamma "JammaIZER" v1 or v2 pcb along with the above previously mentioned listed items to play GoT flawlessly on a candy cab setup indeed. How cool is that?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~