Raiden Fighters Remix Collection

[Steven]

Yeah, it has the potential to be better, and that's definitely not in doubt, but inherently it's just a thing.

Can FPGA do stuff like runahead or whatever? I don't use MAME, but it's been theorized that M2 ShotTriggers is using some form of runahead, hence the occasional glitching if you manage to, for example, press a shot button for only a few frames, causing your shot to come out but then disappear as if it had never happened. There is also the matter of save states. I know it's possible on FPGA because I believe the Pocket has some 3rd party cores that support them, but that's the only FPGA thing that I can think of that has them. Maybe some MiSTer cores have save states, but I don't know.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Basically any Capcom arcade game is better emulated on Mister than with (Groovy)mame, and most of those run with no differentiations at all from the real hardware. The same can be said about NG games at this point, I believe.

I think you may have this particularity of only caring about Toaplan games, which indeed are better to ignore under FPGA. If we're talking present day and in a merely practical sense, then yeah - Mister has too few arcade games properly emulated, due to the fact that it's only one guy and his team doing that, and still a lot of doc is needed. And seems half of their time is dedicated to porting his work to Analogue's systems, anyway. That's why one should use a Groovymame PC as well.

Runahead is not a Mame thing and it's actually anti-emulation by itself. I think I mentioned it here recently - it makes sense only in the good hands, when you need to compensate inherent hardware lag and you know how and when to cut it from the original game. Indeed, something only people like M2 could make use reliably. You may defend that getting rid of the original latency (the one present on the original game) is always an improvement and I'll just say you're then not talking about emulation (same with save states), but about retooling.

[Steven]

Despite what people might and probably think, I do play non-Toaplan games, and quite frequently; I just never talk about them. I was playing Mushihimesama last night and Daifukkatsu earlier today... what a weird game.

I believe it is possible that it isn't just Toaplan games that suffer from lag on MiSTer but everything running on Toa hardware, which includes Battle Garegga, Batrider, and Bakraid. Bakraid is especially of note given the game's rarity. I know Mikado has the first two, but not Bakraid. Taito Hey has all three of them, though. Garegga already has high input lag at like 4~5 frames, but I'm not sure about the other two. The Toaplan games running on the later Toaplan hardware (reminder: there is officially, according to Toaplan, no such thing as Toaplan V2 arcade hardware! It doesn't exist! It probably has some other designation(s) that nobody outside of Toaplan knows, of course, unless it's just the TP-whatever on the boards) on MiSTer are running at 5 frames, as that's the limit of the MiSTer. Maybe the Raizing games also have some added lag, but I'm unsure, especially as I've only played Garegga and Batrider on PCB and Batrider was only a single time.

What are you defining as a Capcom arcade game, though? Does Mars Matrix count, or just the six trillion versions of Street Fighter that I've never played and never will? I'm assuming Mars Matrix counts because you meant Capcom arcade hardware in general, but...

I don't know shit about runahead beyond that it exists and does... something, though; I much prefer real PCBs/consoles, which don't have that.

[Lander]

Calling runahead anti-emulation or retooling gets into some pretty heady ideological semantics. Surely speedhacks must then fall under the same remit, since they 'retool' the hardware's operational flow to skip wait loops or otherwise step around hard-line accuracy, and can also introduce undesirable changes to program behaviour if deployed incorrectly.

Though it is fair to say it's a distinct thing from the emulation itself, in the same way that rollback netcode is distinct from whatever game it's implemented for.

Can FPGA do stuff like runahead or whatever?

Sure, since all FPGA really does is move computation out of software and into hardware. Different execution model and less overhead, but the same result given equivalent input.

In practice, we probably won't see it for a good while, since FPGA setups tend to be memory / cycle constrained and you need a lot of those going spare to actually run the runahead. Kind of like stacking several identical PCBs in the same cab so they can all run in parallel.

Though in theory, you could probably do that and have runahead on original hardware, given a custom coordinator board wired into their RAM. It'd be a terrible engineering mess that nobody would want to risk precious PCBs on, but technically achievable.

Despite what people might and probably think, I do play non-Toaplan games, and quite frequently; I just never talk about them. I was playing Mushihimesama last night and Daifukkatsu earlier today... what a weird game.

[Steven]

Despite what people might and probably think, I do play non-Toaplan games, and quite frequently; I just never talk about them. I was playing Mushihimesama last night and Daifukkatsu earlier today... what a weird game.

lol I have proof, too! Check out my top 5 things that I played on my d̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶c̶o̶l̶l̶e̶c̶t̶o̶r̶ PS5 this year!

Spoiler

I really need to finish Unicorn Overlord; that came out at a really bad time for me because I got swamped with work shit for 8 months almost immediately after that game came out. Of course Toaplan is there too, but still...

Don't ask me why I torture myself by playing games that I don't like like SMT V and Daioujou. I just do.

[Sumez]

Calling runahead anti-emulation or retooling gets into some pretty heady ideological semantics. Surely speedhacks must then fall under the same remit, since they 'retool' the hardware's operational flow to skip wait loops or otherwise step around hard-line accuracy, and can also introduce undesirable changes to program behaviour if deployed incorrectly.

I think the point is relevant especially when comparing hardware emulation to software emulation, though.
Runahead *is* absolutely "anti-emulation" in the sense that it intentionally does things differently than the hardware it emulates. You can do all that weird jazz, including rewinds and fast forward in your software emulators, and it ultimately just serves as a layer separating you from the original game. You *could* do that with FPGA emulation given enough power, but personally I don't think that is the purpose of FPGA emulation. Whether you want it or not is a question of intent and purpose moreso than ideologies I think. Mister does support savestates, but to be perfectly honest I'd rather it didn't.

If I were to ever get into hardware emulation myself, it would be out of convenience - it would be with the intent of replacing the original hardware entirely, and as such I'd prefer it actually behaving seemingly identical to said original hardware, and not trying any shenanigans. And especially if you're being as anal about emulation as Steven is in his earlier posts here, accurate hardware emulation should be a priority.

The only reason for FPGA emulation to employ runahead would be to achieve lag lower than the original games, which I can only see extremely few practical usecases for. The reason it's more common to do in software emulation is to counteract the lag typically induced by other external factors that usually don't play into an FPGA solution.

[MJR]

Funny all that noise about FPGA Misters when they ultimately are just software emulators ported to the hardware, smoother but don't often emulate at all wait states of the real hardware. Smooth and convenient that they may be, in some cases.

But I do admit that The most convenient thing about FPGA Mister is that you can connect it to real CRT. The power of modern consoles has nothing to do with emulation or lag problems. Emulators can happily put out 57.1hz, but when you put it on the 60hz monitor it won't sync, and getting some extra frames from adding extra layer of trickery won't help much, the problem is not solvable and has nothing to do with how much processing power current consoles have - it's all about the displays, what they put out.

low latency VRR monitors that can switch refresh rates on the go are the biggest step on solving the emulation related problems with lag, accuracy and playability. Any other talk about getting extra frame here or there with added trickery on top of emulation is just placebo-infested hand waving.

So despite my snarkiness, I give that if you get FPGA Mister on CRT or VRR monitor with low lag, you are in pretty good place - otherwise I would recommend original hardware through and through to anyone who actually cares about accuracy and has money for it.

But most of the discussion here is just empty noise.

[Sumez]

Funny all that noise about FPGA Misters when they ultimately are just software emulators ported to the hardware

This is just false though.

Mister is still emulation. But there's a big difference between how the two are programmed.

[Bassa-Bassa]

But most of the discussion here is just empty noise.

I have also begun regretting writing to this forum

Fuck these savants here, I'm out.

Reminder that you're still a bit too active.

And this shows once again that you know shit about what you're trying to discuss:

Funny all that noise about FPGA Misters when they ultimately are just software emulators ported to the hardware, smoother but don't often emulate at all wait states of the real hardware. Smooth and convenient that they may be, in some cases.

But I do admit that The most convenient thing about FPGA Mister is that you can connect it to real CRT. The power of modern consoles has nothing to do with emulation or lag problems. Emulators can happily put out 57.1hz, but when you put it on the 60hz monitor it won't sync, and getting some extra frames from adding extra layer of trickery won't help much, the problem is not solvable and has nothing to do with how much processing power current consoles have - it's all about the displays, what they put out.

@Steven: I meant games for Capcom hardware, yeah. Except for the CPS3. There're still some very particular glitches (US Navy being one, if I recall) but generally it's believed the games behave just like the PCBs, with proper sync tests passed. They're not 1:1 FPGA replicas yet, mind, and in my opinion 1:1 stress tests with stuff like Mars Matrix or Progear are still due, but it's nothing like Mame and its infamous wait states issues in this regard.

[Jonpachi]

Metal Jesus Regrets

[MJR]

Reminder that you're still a bit too active.

And this shows once again that you know shit about what you're trying to discuss:

I admit I couldn’t resist the temptation to take one more shot at arm-waving charlatan such as you who eats dunning-kruger with rice crispies for breakfast, seems it did the trick

[Lander]

I think the point is relevant especially when comparing hardware emulation to software emulation, though.
Runahead *is* absolutely "anti-emulation" in the sense that it intentionally does things differently than the hardware it emulates. You can do all that weird jazz, including rewinds and fast forward in your software emulators, and it ultimately just serves as a layer separating you from the original game. You *could* do that with FPGA emulation given enough power, but personally I don't think that is the purpose of FPGA emulation. Whether you want it or not is a question of intent and purpose moreso than ideologies I think. Mister does support savestates, but to be perfectly honest I'd rather it didn't.

That depends on where we draw the line of 'original game'. Is it the underlying design ideas coincidentally limited by their original hardware? Or, is it the end-to-end original experience, preserved perfectly?

I approach emulation as practical means to interact with the underlying design of classic games; if the technical implementation details surrounding them can be lifted beyond their original spec, then that's a win for the games.

Granted, it's not at all purist; that's too much an epsilon problem for me. Zoom in far enough and you'll find something that's impractical to replicate, be it the viability of maintaining an authentic cab, the difficulty of resurrecting arcade culture, or the impossibility of bringing back the time and place that surrounded it. I respect the act of it, but it's different strokes.

So at what point does this idea of 'pro' and 'anti' emulation get introduced? It's not in the code, since mechanisms don't opinionate. And it's not in the developers - at least in broad - since somebody out there created runahead to enhance emulation. Thus, it's in the users, and is motivated by use-case.

Being that users don't hold authority over any of the above, drawing lines in the sand about anything beyond the manual seems explicitly ideological.

If I were to ever get into hardware emulation myself, it would be out of convenience - it would be with the intent of replacing the original hardware entirely, and as such I'd prefer it actually behaving seemingly identical to said original hardware, and not trying any shenanigans. And especially if you're being as anal about emulation as Steven is in his earlier posts here, accurate hardware emulation should be a priority.

I don't see prospective hardware runahead as something that would subtract from the underlying emulation, other than taking up space in the gate array, and so necessitating bigger more expensive chips.
It's separable enough to develop in isolation, since it sits 'on top' of the machine layer. Plus, the actual emulation part is a solved problem at this point.

The economic side isn't so defensible though, FPGAs being niche and expensive as they are.

The only reason for FPGA emulation to employ runahead would be to achieve lag lower than the original games, which I can only see extremely few practical usecases for. The reason it's more common to do in software emulation is to counteract the lag typically induced by other external factors that usually don't play into an FPGA solution.

I'm not necessarily speaking in practical terms, and will admit that the paragraph previous is largely devil's advocate
Realistically it better fits the low-opportunity-cost world of software, but is still quite possible given motivated engineers.

And well, reducing lag on all fronts is the use-case, from my less-purist standpoint. Offsetting modern hardware downsides is a nice consequence, but pushing a negative statistic into positive is a win regardless of where it originates.

In a sense I can see why runahead gets treated as a skeleton-in-the-closest by purists, since it's cutting (imperceptibly, if done right) into a slice of accuracy to battle back the greater evil of modern panels and software stacks. It just seems silly to colour that kind of take-it-or-leave-it option with dogma around proper emulation and black magic modern emulation.

Reminder that you're still a bit too active.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I admit I couldn’t resist the temptation to take one more shot at arm-waving charlatan such as you who eats dunning-kruger with rice crispies for breakfast, seems it did the trick

Dude, use some decency at least when picking your ad hominems. For anyone knowing a bit about current emulation status, your latest attempts including today's are just embarrassing. And that's only the ones I know. Remember anyway that we're not worthy and you''re leaving because you don't have much time, thanks.

Fucking clown.

[seattlexc]

This is a game I'm probably most excited about along with any future M2 releases, I see all the activity and new posts I get excited. It must be an update on the release. Imagine my disappointment when I come on. It's the same old BS over and over again

[Steven]

@Steven: I meant games for Capcom hardware, yeah. Except for the CPS3. There're still some very particular glitches (US Navy being one, if I recall) but generally it's believed the games behave just like the PCBs, with proper sync tests passed. They're not 1:1 FPGA replicas yet, mind, and in my opinion 1:1 stress tests with stuff like Mars Matrix or Progear are still due, but it's nothing like Mame and its infamous wait states issues in this regard.

Okay, cool, I thought so.

Mars Matrix is one of the games where the MiSTer's limitations are the most disappointing. It would be great to play the game with 3 separate shot buttons, each with a separate autofire rate in order to use the different shots conveniently. Unfortunately, it's impossible because the MiSTer won't let you have 3 shot buttons or even more than one autofire speed.

[Bassa-Bassa]

You sure you can call that a Mister's limitation? That's directly game hacking territory which has little to do with emulation.

In this case it'd even destroy the game's leitmotiv. Mars Matrix' unique control system wants you to use one button and get used to the different pacing. Then again, I never really liked the game, so what do I know.

[Steven]

That's absolutely an emulation problem. How many shot buttons and autofire settings does M2 ShotTriggers allow? Or MAME? For that matter, on my PCBs my autofire device allows me to set 6 separate shot buttons, each with a separate rate.

And yes, Mars Matrix would be a significantly less annoying game if it didn't have its stupid 1-button control scheme, which was probably why they fixed that, albeit somewhat poorly, for the Dreamcast version.

[Bassa-Bassa]

That's absolutely an emulation problem. How many shot buttons and autofire settings does M2 ShotTriggers allow? Or MAME? For that matter, on my PCBs my autofire device allows me to set 6 separate shot buttons, each with a separate rate.

That must be a really advanced device, if you can make it work like you mentioned for Mars Matrix. Still, it's hacking. M2 indeed does a lot of it. I actually always wonder if all the original devs of the games they port are really fine with everything they do.

And yes, Mars Matrix would be a significantly less annoying game if it didn't have its stupid 1-button control scheme, which was probably why they fixed that for the Dreamcast version.

Pretty sure that was not a fix and was more the usual feature for control pad users and journalists.

[MJR]

I admit I couldn’t resist the temptation to take one more shot at arm-waving charlatan such as you who eats dunning-kruger with rice crispies for breakfast, seems it did the trick

Dude, use some decency at least when picking your ad hominems. For anyone knowing a bit about current emulation status, your latest attempts including today's are just embarrassing. And that's only the ones I know. Remember anyway that we're not worthy and you''re leaving because you don't have much time, thanks.

Fucking clown.

You said it right, you are not worthy, glad to also hear you adress yourself as fucking clown, I would not use such rude language on you myself - I don't think any kind of uncalled swearing or name-calling would help me to rid this place of your herpes-like existence. Also, may I suggest finding a job or something better to do as you seem to be spending quite a lot of time digging my posts. Anything that you can use to defend your ego, I guess

[BulletMagnet]

This is getting really tiresome; all parties, back on topic or bans start getting handed out.

[Starfighter]

There's no release date or any sort of news on this, right? I haven't heard a word about it since september so I'm guessing it's still too early to be dropping estimates. Very excited for this, it might be my most anticipated title right now!

[Necronom]

There's no release date or any sort of news on this, right? I haven't heard a word about it since september so I'm guessing it's still too early to be dropping estimates. Very excited for this, it might be my most anticipated title right now!

No, unfortunately there's no release date yet. They probably want people to forget about Raiden Nova first...

[DoomsDave]

For that matter, on my PCBs my autofire device allows me to set 6 separate shot buttons, each with a separate rate.

Is that a Reco? I want to get one specifically for Raiden Fighters boards

[Steven]

Isn't there still no information about this release at all other than "it will exist at some undetermined point in the future"? There aren't even any announcements about what systems it's on. Even the official website is nothing more than a picture that says that it's in development. It's not like they really need to announce platforms specifically, as everyone knows that it's probably coming to everything modern except maybe Xbox, as they skipped that for Nova, a very unexpected move given that MOSS has generally been good about releasing things on Xbox so far, but there is almost no information about this.

Mikado has at least one of the Raiden Fighters games, so I might go check out whichever ones they have over there along with Viper Phase 1, which I believe shares a cabinet with one of the Raiden Fighters games. Isn't the original Fighters just some random game that they put the Raiden name on it to make it sell better? That's fine, I guess. Irem did it with Leo and... someone else did it with something else. Who's the someone and what's the something? I don't remember, but I was not thinking of Contra Force but instead something that's actually good. Probably...

For that matter, on my PCBs my autofire device allows me to set 6 separate shot buttons, each with a separate rate.

Is that a Reco? I want to get one specifically for Raiden Fighters boards

I don't want to get too far off topic because I'm almost certainly included in that warning up there, but yep. It's really great. Let's leave it at this for now so we don't derail the thread any more.

I can make it on topic, though. I've never played any of these games, and since they are on 360 I keep forgetting that they're old, and, now that you mentioned it, probably don't have autofire. Do these games play better with some sort of more complex autofire setup?

[Cypocryphy]

New Raiden Fighters collection on the way - announced at TGS from MOSS.

Trailer available here (thanks Lemnear):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADmuqVap3IU

Will edit when more details emerge. Word on the street is that it's emulation and not a source port. No platforms or date announced just yet. Exciting news!

Link to a TGS attendee's pictures of the announcement: https://x.com/okumasama/status/18391730 ... EoTNQ&s=19

Is there any news on the release date? I’ve been searching, and I myself cannot find any dates or time frames.

[Darkseed_5150]

Hopefully they're taking their time implementing 4K/VRR/HDR. VRR in particular is a MUST with this game which natively runs at an oddball refresh rate. HDR makes the colors look amazing. These are pre requisites for any arcade port in 2025 especially if you're charging decent coin.

Mikado Raiden 3 is great is PS5. Crispy as all get out. So I do have hope they'll put out something worth the wait.

[Cypocryphy]

Hopefully they're taking their time implementing 4K/VRR/HDR. VRR in particular is a MUST with this game which natively runs at an oddball refresh rate. HDR makes the colors look amazing. These are pre requisites for any arcade port in 2025 especially if you're charging decent coin.

Mikado Raiden 3 is great is PS5. Crispy as all get out. So I do have hope they'll put out something worth the wait.

Me too. I really like what they did with Mikada Raiden 3.

I’m also expecting Raiden 2 to be released on Arcade Archives. With the recent Viper Phase 1 release, which won’t be in this collection, that leaves Raiden 2 as the one yet to be rereleased. I imagine sometime this year will see it for consoles.

[Sumez]

HDR to emulate an arcade game? What?

[Steven]

Yeah, about that. HDR adds input lag anyway, so fuck that.

[Darkseed_5150]

Absolutely, yes. The colors and contrast look way closer to a CRT with proper HDR implementation.