Why aren't the retroachivements.org leaderboards more used by this community?

[RuySan]

The leaderboard system in place on retroachievements is pretty cool because it's more cheat-proof than any other, and yet, I don't seem that many people on shmups leaderboards. Ketsui, for example, has only 144 players:

https://retroachievements.org/leaderboa ... hp?i=96321

Only drawback is that runahead can't be used, but even without it, most games on retroarch are still more responsive than on switch or plenty of ports on other systems.

[MJR]

I can only speak for myself, but I mostly play old arcade games / shmups for score.

Retroachievements is a cool concept though, I just dont have the time to hassle with different emulators.

I wish Commodore 64 / Amiga games had something like that.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm not fond of retroachievements. Achievement hunting culture motivates people to focus on checking off often arbitrary, contradictory goals at the cost of actually learning to play a game well. Playing a game well is usually not something that's measured well by the metric of # of achievements alone, especially when the game is setup with a lot of fanmade achievements that have little to do with overall skill.

The leaderboard system in place on retroachievements is pretty cool because it's more cheat-proof than any other

More cheat-proof is not absolutely cheat-proof. Even the folks over at MARP who insist on using a heavily stripped down emulator, WolfMAME, and refuse to allow for stuff like autofire in games, have seen people successfully pass off cheated input replays that don't get caught for years. It's not really a big draw. The scoreboards here are as much about community discussion therein as they are about the scores themselves.

There's no real way to avoid cheaters. A lot of it is honor system, and seeing people play live in person is really the only way to judge beyond any doubt a person's skill. It's always possible otherwise to find a way to cheat when you're posting a replay, or pretending you're playing live in a stream when really it's playing back a replay you've prepared. There's no end to how clever a determined cheater can get, and only seeing someone play live in person (particularly on arcade hardware you can't setup to cheat on in advance) is the only real way to know for sure a person's true abilities.

Only drawback is that runahead can't be used

Runahead should not be used if it allows lower latency than what would be on the actual platform.

[EmperorIng]

I prefer cstarflare's long-standing shmup scoreboard website, www.restartsyndrome.com. As well as the leaderboards here of course, whenever they get updated (sometimes never ).

Obviously there's a bit of honor-system involved, and some of the game entries can be pretty sparse for "competition" but it emphasizes imo the best aspects of playing the games for skill and competition. The fact that it lets you browse video footage, inp files for mame if available, and screenshots - or none of those things! - means it is pretty open to everyone willing to use it. Even the (as some have affectionately termed it) "web 1.0 brutalist aesthetic" is itself a boon in that you will be hard pressed to find ANY computer struggling with the site.

I agree with Roo in that achievement hunting can be too much like checklist gaming and can sometimes lead to pretty, uh, 'degenerate' playstyles for lack of a better word... Not to mention that some games have barely-thought-through achievements, especially if they are older arcade ports.

For me, the most fun is had in the game when playing either for a survival 1cc (especially if the game is a tough nut to crack) or getting a good score by coming to terms with its mechanics - assuming I like them enough to actually attempt to score.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Even the (as some have affectionately termed it) "web 1.0 brutalist aesthetic" is itself a boon in that you will be hard pressed to find ANY computer struggling with the site.

Ugh, I remember when "make your entire website out of Flash" was all the rage in websites and that was an awful, awful time. Infinite scrolling pages are also awful to reload if you need to find a page that's buried deep. I absolutely love simple to navigate, effective pages like this. Even if it feels a bit like a brutalist architecture equivalent of a webpage, it's simple and it gets the job done, and that's really all that counts.

I need to use RestartSyndrome more, I really like how it handles and catalogues score submissions but I've been bad about logging in to submit there!

[RuySan]

I'm not fond of retroachievements. Achievement hunting culture motivates people to focus on checking off often arbitrary, contradictory goals at the cost of actually learning to play a game well. Playing a game well is usually not something that's measured well by the metric of # of achievements alone, especially when the game is setup with a lot of fanmade achievements that have little to do with overall skill.

The leaderboard system in place on retroachievements is pretty cool because it's more cheat-proof than any other

More cheat-proof is not absolutely cheat-proof. Even the folks over at MARP who insist on using a heavily stripped down emulator, WolfMAME, and refuse to allow for stuff like autofire in games, have seen people successfully pass off cheated input replays that don't get caught for years. It's not really a big draw. The scoreboards here are as much about community discussion therein as they are about the scores themselves.

I'm not that much into achievements either, unless that's a game that I absolutely love and it gives me some incentive to play in a new way, but online leaderboards on the other hand, are pretty cool and that's what I love most about retroachievements.

As for the cheating aspect, I have no idea if it's even possible to cheat on it. Never saw any suspicious scores. On the other hand, every steam game online leaderboards has always a couple of suspicious scores at the top.

I wish Commodore 64 / Amiga games had something like that.

There are plenty of people on the forums asking for that, but I don't know if it's feasable. There's already achievements for Amstrad CPC and MSX, so maybe some day.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I poked around the site and made some interesting discoveries that made me chuckle.

So the achievements for 2-loop 1CCs in Ketsui I noticed weren't lining up at all with either the score leaderboard linked, or the achievements that are tied to scoring. What gives?

It turns out the achievements have a "mode" listing. If there's nothing listed, they're playing under "softcore" settings where savestates can be used to unlock the achievement. If you set the emulator to "hardcore" which disables savestating, you can compete on the scoring leaderboard. Retroachievements essentially has entire achievement leaderboards with no actual accomplishments because they were earned by savestating their way to victory, lol. As it turns out , not a single person has a legitimate 1CC of loop 2. Not surprising, as it's really hard. Hilariously, it's impossible to know how many people have 1CC'd the first loop as a 1-ALL because the only achievements for single loop clears allow for continues, or track if you've entered Omote or Ura loop. There is no 1-ALL 1CC achievement for beating the game without Omote or Ura triggering.

The nail in the coffin perhaps is that the leaderboard has no useful information such as a listing of stage, ship type, player side used, what platform it was played on, and so on. It's purely an automated submission with score and score alone. Assuming they're legit, there's only like 5 noteworthy scores on the board that are high enough to realistically be a 1CC, and no scores high enough to hint at a loop 2 entry, let alone a loop 2 clear. There are no scores at 100 million or higher. In other words, nobody's using the leaderboard compared to this forum or RS's leaderboard.

[RuySan]

I poked around the site and made some interesting discoveries that made me chuckle.

So the achievements for 2-loop 1CCs in Ketsui I noticed weren't lining up at all with either the score leaderboard linked, or the achievements that are tied to scoring. What gives?

It turns out the achievements have a "mode" listing. If there's nothing listed, they're playing under "softcore" settings where savestates can be used to unlock the achievement. If you set the emulator to "hardcore" which disables savestating, you can compete on the scoring leaderboard. Retroachievements essentially has entire achievement leaderboards with no actual accomplishments because they were earned by savestating their way to victory, lol. As it turns out , not a single person has a legitimate 1CC of loop 2. Not surprising, as it's really hard. Hilariously, it's impossible to know how many people have 1CC'd the first loop as a 1-ALL because the only achievements for single loop clears allow for continues, or track if you've entered Omote or Ura loop. There is no 1-ALL 1CC achievement for beating the game without Omote or Ura triggering.

I don't care much about achievements, but "softcore" achievements are useless for achievement leaderboards and don't really count towards anything. Only the number in parenthesis are the players who achieved it under hardcore rules.

The nail in the coffin perhaps is that the leaderboard has no useful information such as a listing of stage, ship type, player side used, what platform it was played on, and so on. It's purely an automated submission with score and score alone. Assuming they're legit, there's only like 5 noteworthy scores on the board that are high enough to realistically be a 1CC, and no scores high enough to hint at a loop 2 entry, let alone a loop 2 clear. There are no scores at 100 million or higher. In other words, nobody's using the leaderboard compared to this forum or RS's leaderboard.

Yes, there aren't many top players, hence why I was asking here for more players to use the system, because I think it's pretty great.

There are plenty of games with discrete highscores for different conditions. Dondonpachi, for example(https://retroachievements.org/game/12751) has plenty of those (18 leaderboards, including max chains for each level on each loop). It's up to what the volunteer who does the achievements decides to do. As for the "platform" the arcade games are on the Finalburn Neo core, but there are plenty of systems supported . All must have the rom with the same checksum.

[Sumez]

Are there any examples of achievements anywhere that isn't garbage?

[BIL]

Are there any examples of achievements anywhere that isn't garbage?

R-Type Delta, Zanac Neo. ;3

[copy-paster]

That guy above has to be trolling, R-Type Delta's early cheevo while impressive for the time it requires really ridiculous cheevo to unlock, here are examples:

Over 100 hours in combat
Over 1000 hours in combat
Played over 100 times
Played over 1000 times
Delta weapon used for 100 times
Delta weapon used for 1000 times
Over 10,000 times using the wave cannon
Over 100,000 times using the wave cannon
Cleared game with wave cannon only

The reward to use Delta Weapon over 1000 times? You get Stage Select

[BIL]

The reward to use Delta Weapon over 1000 times? You get Stage Select

I forgot all but the Forceless clear one Amazing entertainment, good enough for me.

In all seriousness I remember Neo's being alright. Might've forgotten a bunch of bullshit there too though. >__>

[EmperorIng]

That guy above has to be trolling, R-Type Delta's early cheevo while impressive for the time it requires really ridiculous cheevo to unlock, here are examples:

Over 100 hours in combat
Over 1000 hours in combat
Played over 100 times
Played over 1000 times
Delta weapon used for 100 times
Delta weapon used for 1000 times
Over 10,000 times using the wave cannon
Over 100,000 times using the wave cannon
Cleared game with wave cannon only

The reward to use Delta Weapon over 1000 times? You get Stage Select

Clearly the seeds of R-Shite Final's Agony of Endless Unlock were already sown on the PS1.

[Lander]

Zanac Neo had achievements? I don't remember those. Outside of unlocking the wonderfully broken 4th ship, that is

That guy above has to be trolling, R-Type Delta's early cheevo while impressive for the time it requires really ridiculous cheevo to unlock, here are examples:

Leave the PS1 on overnight for a week
Leave the PS1 on overnight for a month and a half
...

Fixed!

[BIL]

Zanac Neo had achievements? I don't remember those. Outside of unlocking the wonderfully broken 4th ship, that is

It's been long enough since I've booted up my PS1, I had to revisit Zach Keene's guide - which was incidentally my Compile gateway drug. Was this for real or was I just dreaming

JUDGEMENT (｀w´メ)

IT'S A GOOD'UN

(CTRL+F " [II.5] Profile Screen/Player's Note " )

Easy Mode Beaten - Pretty self-explanatory
Normal Mode Beaten - Ditto.
Hard Mode Beaten - Ditto.
Very Hard Mode Beaten - And again...
Beat Game with Machine 0 - That'd be the FC-Custom, and you can do
this on any difficulty.
All Bosses Destroyed - Don't let the time run out on you.
Beat Game with No Mistakes - i.e., don't die. Ever. Difficulty doesn't
matter, fortunately.
Beat 1 Area With No Mistakes - That can be Area 0 on Easy with the FC-
Custom, for all the game cares.

Page 2
------
No Item Clearing - Ouch. No chips, no subweapons, no
Lander. Difficulty doesn't matter.
All Faeries Collected - See section [II.7]
All Eye Eye Collected - See section [II.8]
All Items Collected - If it appears, you must grab it.
10000000 Points Achieved - Easier done than said...
15000000 Points Achieved - Self-explanatory.
20000000 Points Achieved - Ditto.
All Subweapons Fully Powered - Yes, in one game.

Page 3
------
Get 100 Chips With No Mistakes- Not terribly difficult...
Have 50 Ships Remaining - I think you have to beat the game, but
you don't still have to have 50 ships at
the end.
Hit counter reaches 500 - Straightforward enough.
Hit bonus reaches 5000 - Ditto.
No Shot Play - Clear an area without firing a single
shot.
Use Charge Shot 100 Times - In one game, that is.
No Charge Shot Play - Hello, FC-Custom!
Chain Combo reaches 30 - Those box swarms in the last area are
good for this.

Page 4
------
Wide Shot Acquired - Yes, all you have to do is hit an Eye-Eye.
3 Landers Acquired - See "point counting", above.
20 Landers Acquired - Ditto. Or use FC Custom's W6 trick.
500 Boxes Destroyed - Yawn...
Item Received From Faerie - Keep a faerie is still alive until a
boss battle is over (see "Rio/Faerie",
below)
Play Time Reaches 10 Hours - Everyone has this by now, right?
Play Count Reaches 100 - If you really want this, you can just
start a game, immediately pause and
choose quit, repeat ad nauseum...
Finish Count Reaches 20 - Not too hard, but it'll take you about
20 hours.

[Lander]

Oh, nice! I must have skimmed over the ???? and forgotten all about it.

A shame upon my name

Nicer spread than Delta, for my money. Bit of a shame that it doesn't give any hints, but that's not the end of the world. Recent time with Gradius V's credit extend system has reminded me that even a small carrot is nice, to keep you coming back.

Never really jived with RetroAchievements, though. Possibly because RetroArch never felt stable - if it can't remember my settings half the time, surely tracking a war record is going to be too big of an ask!

[CStarFlare]

Shmups are a niche interest, and so its fans mainly stick to their niche communities. Without wanting to sound elitist, the Ketsui and Dodonpachi leaderboards at RA don't offer any compelling reason to join in - 144 scores on Ketsui, and there's no reason to expect that more than 10 of them have more than a passing interest in shmups broadly, much less Ketsui specifically. I'm glad the RA community is checking them out and taking the time to fill out a score for the leaderboards, but I think most of them are tourists who've stopped by the leaderboard incidentally.

Retroachievements is also focused on the achievements part of the site, with leaderboards being a clear afterthought. I had to control+F on the Ketsui page to even find where to access its leaderboard - it's at the bottom of the right hand information column. If I open a user's profile, leaderboard activity isn't even mentioned. The leaderboards don't seem to offer the player a way to submit supporting evidence or add commentary on their entry, and the numbers don't have comma separators so it's hard to even read the scores on the scoreboard.

I'm biased, obviously. But outside of restart syndrome, we have these forums where at least there is a community, and the French shmup.com high score system is another great automated leaderboard system connected to a community dedicated to shmups. I don't see what RA offers.

Edit: I was poking around the RA site and I have to say it's a pretty neat system. I think everything I say above stands, but RA is very cool at its core purpose.

[RuySan]

The leaderboards don't seem to offer the player a way to submit supporting evidence or add commentary on their entry, and the numbers don't have comma separators so it's hard to even read the scores on the scoreboard.

I'm biased, obviously. But outside of restart syndrome, we have these forums where at least there is a community, and the French shmup.com high score system is another great automated leaderboard system connected to a community dedicated to shmups. I don't see what RA offers.

Edit: I was poking around the RA site and I have to say it's a pretty neat system. I think everything I say above stands, but RA is very cool at its core purpose.

Evidence isn't need. Right now RA leaderboards are cheat-proof. It's possible in each leaderboard to leave a comment, so it's a way for the users to interact. I think it's a cool system, because each online leaderboard on an official release eventually gets forgotten by the publisher. Here, everything is maintained by of volunteers, so it's more future-proof.

The issue with leaderboards such as restart syndrome is that they're useless for shit/average players like me (sure, it's nice to see vids of the best players). I like when there's lots of players, and I can see myself rising through the ranks as I get better.

[CStarFlare]

I disagree on the first point - videos/inp files/screenshots may not be necessary for proof, but they're a fun part of showing off your score. It's not entirely true that it's impossible to cheat, though - I looked up Time Crisis since I have always toyed with the idea of a leaderboard site dedicated to lightgun games. I found this note attached to the Normal leaderboard - ""Hotscrock" removed "AkunoKen"s entry of "00:02.13" from this leaderboard. Reason: Impossible time." (The main game's comments suggest he might have been playing with a touchscreen, but that in itself doesn't seem sufficient to get a time like that.)

On your second point, I get that - I originally created RS because 1) I saw scoreboards here getting abandoned and 2) people seemed hesitant to submit scores they didn't think were worth the maintainer's trouble. That second purpose should in theory encourage players of all levels to take part, but in practice it really is the more serious players who use the site, likely for personal tracking more than competition with each other.

The fact that there's no community connected with the site is probably part of that - we don't have a discord or a forum, it's just its own standalone tool so you have to be in the know and interested in a new login. Maybe some sort of event is in order to encourage people to post any and all scores they have - play one credit of a game, throw a score up, and then move on. Encourages people to try new things and to help signal that a stage 2 game over score is just as encouraged as a 1cc.

As I look around RA, I see a big gap - as far as I can tell RA's system is built entirely around emulators, so the genre's last 15+ years of new games are simply not in the mix. It's a retro site so that makes sense, but the genre isn't completely in the past so a leaderboard site that doesn't support consoles past the PS2 or PC games at all is simply catering to an audience that only sort of overlaps with shmup players. If you want a leaderboard for Blue Revolver? Windows Touhou titles? The new Exa releases? The games don't exist in RA's database and probably won't, since they're not going to show up as a ROM you can load into an approved emulator.

It’s also worth acknowledging that RS probably has less than 20 active users, and the shmups forum score board is pretty quiet too. Leaderboard participation is just not a big thing these days where most new games let you automatically upload to an official leaderboard which will have many more players than any external site and where the player will have stopped caring by the time the server dies.

[RuySan]

I agree on the video evidence. It's a cool thing, and every once In a while I check YouTube to learn something for a game I'm playing and there's always some Jaimers video who makes me achieve something I didn't think it was possible before.

The biggest aspect of a successful leaderboard, besides being cheat-proof, is critical mass. The biggest problem with RA leaderboards is that arcade games, and shmups in particular, aren't that popular. Go check all the leaderboards for speed running and other similar stuff for the likes of Mario, sonic and mega man x, and you'll see how many people take participate in them.

But even though there are many official releases of old games, RetroArch on a moderately powerful PC simply runs better. I play Progear on the Capcom home arcade because there's no leaderboards on RA, but there's no question that playing on RetroArch is so much better. Less input lag, and some gorgeous convincing shaders.

I have to admit that before this conversation I wasn't even aware of restart syndrome. I'll check it more often to see the ceiling of the game I've been playing.

[Steven]

In addition to all of the stuff that Roo and Ing said, especially regarding the fact that achievements are mostly just not good and/or are poorly designed, there are those of us who don't like PC emulators at all (me; given the option between playing a game on MAME and not playing at all, I choose to not play at all) and greatly prefer playing on PCB or whatever real hardware the game runs on (also me), with ACA or M2 ShotTriggers being acceptable substitutes or even replacements in cases like Battle Garegga, Ketsui, or Kyuukyoku Tiger, all of which are examples of the PS4 versions being objectively the best versions of those games.

As far as I'm aware, MAME and other non-M2/Hamster emulators still can't run some games properly, and nobody wants to play a broken game.

[Lander]

Cheat-proof is a precarious term with regards modern tech. The movers-and-shakers spend silly money figuring out ways to lock their software away from prying users, but there's always some crazy polymath out there with the chops and inclination to break it.

Cheat-resistant, maybe, but never underestimate the bored and 1337...

[OmegaFlareX]

Evidence isn't need. Right now RA leaderboards are cheat-proof.

This is incorrect. People use Cheat Engine or other bullshit to post fake leaderboard scores, and get badge masteries, all the time. Besides lackluster achievement design & development, it is that community's largest problem. They now have some mods/admins that handle investigating reports of cheating. I think there's a dedicated Discord channel for that.

Only drawback is that runahead can't be used

Also false. Hardcore Mode allows Run-ahead. Not manual Frame Delay, though: if that is turned on, it must be set to automatic.