Are some non-USB controllers laggy?

[shmupsrocks]

Some USB controllers are slow/laggy. Analog controllers are naturally fast. Are some non-USB digital controllers slow or is it the USB interface that introduces lag?

[Sumez]

Definitely depends on the controller interface. "non-USB" covers a pretty wide range.
I'm assuming you're not talking about wireless controllers, because obviously their interface can introduce as much lag as USB.

Ultimately, lag is only introduced the moment the input data is actively being buffered somewhere, so older controllers usually won't even have the technology to potentially introduce lag.
For consoles up until the mid 90s the most common way to transfer controller data would be via a really basic parallel-to-serial circuit. A signal from the console triggers a new read, and each button is polled sequentially. I'd consider this absolutely zero lag, as the input polling is controlled entirely by the console, and the controller is technically unable to add any additional delay.
Is this what you are considering an "analog" controller?

So taking the SNES as an example, I think it's safe to assume that any controller that has nothing special going on, cannot possibly be laggy. But even then there's no accounting for what they've added to them outside of the communications with the console. For example a USB adapter designed for a SNES could of course introduce lag via the USB interface, and for wireless adapters it's almost a given.

[shmupsrocks]

Great explanation. I'm mainly interested in new/modern wired controllers for old consoles. Should controllers like that be assumed no or very low lag?

[orange808]

Depends on the specific controller and adapter. The wireless or USB protocol on your new controller will have a polling rate, the adapter needs unknown time to process, there's a deadline when the console polls the controller state to update the registers, and we don't know when the software checks the state of the hardware registers.

Anything that's late will not reach the console until the next time the console or game polls the controller state again. If you're five minutes late for your flight and it's gone, you still have to wait for the next plane. You don't simply arrive five minutes late. So, it's complicated.

[shmupsrocks]

What about a new controller that isn't wireless or USB? Would there be a polling rate on the controller (separate from the console's polling rate) in that case? If so, does a controller like that have just as much potential for lag as a wired USB controller?

[orange808]

Assuming a new "analog" controller is engineered properly and models the designs of the original OEM equipment, the performance should be the same for that specific controller plugged directly to the original target console.

I suppose the biggest problems are ultimately rooted in controller DAC and ADC manipulation?

[shmupsrocks]

Do new controllers typically model OEM designs under the hood? I think they always have a digital polling design now even with original style connectors. That creates the opportunity for introducing lag but maybe it's the USB and wireless interfaces that are typically responsible for that.

[Lander]

Why wouldn't they? If you're already manufacturing a custom PCB to accommodate button layout, you're already most of the way to being able to replicate OEM functionality, since older controllers are mostly handheld sets of circuit paths with nice ergonomic ways to open / close or change resistance.

I don't see how economy of scale for microcontrollers etc. would force the issue outside of cases that require pad-side computation, like interfacing with radio hardware, remapping, macros, etc. If you're just building a simple repro or compatible, the latter approach adds significant extra engineering work and cost for essentially no gain.

Though as far as lag goes for a theoretical non-USB, non-wireless, but still microcontroller / polling-based modern pad; it would certainly introduce lag since you can't compute without spending time, but in practice would probably be slight, since a modern microcontroller wholly dedicated to I/O should be able to poll much faster than the console it's talking to.
That would put the potential lag at some variable sub-frame number defined by the difference between the most recent console and pad ticks at any given point in time, which would be considerably smaller than USB, which (as I recall) can be measured in frames.

This is, of course, papering over a lot of implementation details (synchronization, latency-reducing hardware interrupts, bad designs, etc.) that are liable to add extra complexity.

[shmupsrocks]

This is why I like the Reflex Adapt. It's a ~1ms USB interface that uses adapters to connect any controller with original style plugs to the MiSTer or PC.

https://misteraddons.com/collections/pa ... flex-adapt

I wasn't sure if non-USB non-wireless controllers add a significant amount of their own lag to the chain but it sounds like that's unlikely.

[orange808]

There's a spreadsheet out there with lag numbers for a lot of controllers. Google it.

There's also inexpensive sellers for snac adapters if you shop around. If you're using original controllers, you want snac. Sorge locks out multiplayer snac, but there are cores out there. Copy an paste the unofficial cores to your sd card. Not really difficult.

The prices from multiple MiSTer shoppes are outrageous. That link of yours makes my point. $50usd for a USB adapter is a ripoff. Shop around.

[shmupsrocks]

SNAC doesn't work for navigating MiSTer menus.

[orange808]

SNAC doesn't work for navigating MiSTer menus.

Try to relax. It's going to be okay... Maybe we can do something to get around this unbelievable inconvenience!

Pair a little bluetooth keyboard. A Rii is all you need.

[shmupsrocks]

I was just about to relax but then I realized for SNAC I would need two controllers for *each* core, plus the SNAC device, plus the keyboard. A $50 Reflex Adapt and one pair of controllers starts to sound pretty good.

[orange808]

In that case, why not just buy a native bluetooth or USB controller and bypass the additional node in the chain?

[shmupsrocks]

If lag from a wired controller originates in the implementation of the USB interface (which seems to be the conclusion we came to in this thread) then I like the idea of buying one optimized USB interface and plugging whatever I want into it.

[orange808]

If lag from a wired controller originates in the implementation of the USB interface (which seems to be the conclusion we came to in this thread) then I like the idea of buying one optimized USB interface and plugging whatever I want into it.

https://rpubs.com/misteraddons/inputlatency

You could just buy a new DS5 at the corner shoppe, plug it in, and call it a day. They're plentiful, brand new, well built, and they have very low lag.

I use controller signal converters because I have analog arcade sticks that I like. There's some discussion of gates and stick shapes on the forum. It's really not "one size fits all" if you're feeling picky.

I also like Nintendo d-pads, so I'll plug one in sometimes--although I've gotten used to the DualShock d-pad over time. It's not about lag; it's because I want a specific controller.

N64 is the really tricky one. It's got six face buttons and an analog stick. Nothing but a real controller feels right. Still not a lag issue, though.

[BrianC]

The prices from multiple MiSTer shoppes are outrageous. That link of yours makes my point. $50usd for a USB adapter is a ripoff. Shop around.

Misteraddons is a bit on the pricey side, but some items are more reasonable, and his products are quality. Most of the other places selling SNAC are outside the US and some of them are similar in price. I also heard some of those sellers selling SNAC for cheap or Aliexpress or eBay aren't reliable.

[shmupsrocks]

Does SNAC work with new controllers that have original style plugs, or only with real original controllers?

Does SNAC work with arcade cores? I use the original Neo Geo thumbstick gamepad with arcade cores.

Does SNAC work with Neo Geo cores?

[jd213]

I've always wondered if 3rd party multi-system controllers/arcade sticks from the 90's (like the Hori Fighting Stick Multi: https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B0CZXG7B1L ) have any lag.

I remember reading that the old PS/SS to Dreamcast controller adapters have lag.