What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[Steven]

The motion controls are definitely super awkward when using the Switch Pro controller. You can use the touchscreen instead, but I'm not sure if that's actually better or just equally awkward in a different way.

[Air Master Burst]

The only motion controls I ever liked was the original SixAxis scheme for Lair.

[Steven]

Lair killed Factor 5, so...

Motion controls were fine on Metroid Prime Trilogy. That's setting aside the fact that that version stripped a bunch of amazing sequence breaks from Prime 1 and made the graphics worse so there is no reason to play it because it's strictly inferior to the NTSC-U version 0-00 Gamecube version, which is the only version of the game that anyone should play, but yeah.

[it290]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Astro Bot has some music lifted directly from Thunder Force V, even if it's kind of hard to hear over the sound effects. That was interesting. It's also the only music from the game (I mean from Astro Bot, not Thunder Force V) that I actually remember. I always said Thunder Force V has by far the best music in that entire series and I'm still right!

The TFV music was a surprise inclusion! Re: the music though, the vocal song that the tree sings certainly was memorable.

[Lander]

Wait, which TFV track is in Astro Bot? That's a respectably deep cut.

My money would be on Duel of/n Top or A3, as two of V's more prominent hidden bangers.

[To Far Away Times]

I managed to get a perfect online in MvC2. That’s basically the equivalent of getting three perfects in a row in any other fighting game.

I think I found my team. Megaman, Cyclops, and Sentinel, throwing endless fireballs, and spamming Sentinel’s Ground Assist.

[Steven]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Astro Bot has some music lifted directly from Thunder Force V, even if it's kind of hard to hear over the sound effects. That was interesting. It's also the only music from the game (I mean from Astro Bot, not Thunder Force V) that I actually remember. I always said Thunder Force V has by far the best music in that entire series and I'm still right!

Re: the music though, the vocal song that the tree sings certainly was memorable.

I played that level twice because I missed some stuff and I think the music was different the second time. Might be wrong though.

Wait, which TFV track is in Astro Bot? That's a respectably deep cut.

My money would be on Duel of/n Top or A3, as two of V's more prominent hidden bangers.

Rising Blue Lightning

Sega just released a new version of the Thunder Force V OST very recently. It seems that it does not have the arranged versions from Lost Technology Plus, which is unfortunate, but it does have some hypothetical Mega Drive versions of a handful of tracks.

[Lander]

Ah, should have guessed. I let my bias toward boss tracks get the better of me
Mega Drive renditions sound good - I'll have to keep my ear out for those.

[Air Master Burst]

Lair killed Factor 5, so...

No, a combination of them getting sued for not paying their employees and their shitty publisher going bankrupt is what killed Factor 5.

[XoPachi]

Putting a lot of time into Wangan Midnight MT5DX+ this week. Despite missing half the experience of the game because I haven't got access to a wheel and pedals, it's a lot of fun. And this series music is fantastic.

[m.sniffles.esq]

For whatever reason, I found myself thinking about No Man's Sky towards the end of the summer. Upon loading up my save, I realized I'd never played any of it's main 'quests' to completion before I got bored.

So I made the very loooooooonnnng journey to the center of the galaxy and I found:

Spoiler

new game+

It's kind of funny.

Kind of...

[To Far Away Times]

Well, Fuck!!!!!!!

So I've been kicking around this idea for months that there's this hole that needs to be filled. See, Tetris Attack is one of my all time favorite games, and Nintendo really doesn't seem to care all that much about it. So I had this idea about making a clone with competitive online play and an in game currency/shop system to customize your play field for completing online matches. I've been looking into G Develop and thinking about giving it an honest go.

As I was doing research, I discovered this already exists. Someone already made it. They even used the same name I was gonna use. Goddammit.

Oh well, I'll give it a shot and see if it covers all my needs. That game is called Panel Attack.

[Daytime Waitress]

Well, Fuck!!!!!!!

So I've been kicking around this idea for months that there's this hole that needs to be filled. See, Tetris Attack is one of my all time favorite games, and Nintendo really doesn't seem to care all that much about it. So I had this idea about making a clone with competitive online play and an in game currency/shop system to customize your play field for completing online matches. I've been looking into G Develop and thinking about giving it an honest go.

As I was doing research, I discovered this already exists. Someone already made it. They even used the same name I was gonna use. Goddammit.

Oh well, I'll give it a shot and see if it covers all my needs. That game is called Panel Attack.

Code your own, build up a niche following, and gently cruise into first place when the dingbats that can't be bothered to remove Nintendo IP from their game get nuked from legal orbit?
I mean, they're not asking for money for it, so they'll probably fly under the radar for a while, but... yeah.

[To Far Away Times]

Ok, so the people in this game are absolute sweatlords. Dropping like 6x chains in the first 10 seconds.

[Sumez]

Code your own, build up a niche following, and gently cruise into first place when the dingbats that can't be bothered to remove Nintendo IP from their game get nuked from legal orbit?
I mean, they're not asking for money for it, so they'll probably fly under the radar for a while, but... yeah.

Doesn't seem to use any Nintendo IP does it?

[Daytime Waitress]

Code your own, build up a niche following, and gently cruise into first place when the dingbats that can't be bothered to remove Nintendo IP from their game get nuked from legal orbit?
I mean, they're not asking for money for it, so they'll probably fly under the radar for a while, but... yeah.

Doesn't seem to use any Nintendo IP does it?

I mean I installed the base game with no mods and I've got Yoshi and Lip in the background of Tetris Attack blocks so I dunno what to tell you.

[Sumez]

I mean I installed the base game with no mods and I've got Yoshi and Lip in the background of Tetris Attack blocks so I dunno what to tell you.

Well that was one obvious thing you could tell me.
None of that comes across from their website.

[Daytime Waitress]

I mean I installed the base game with no mods and I've got Yoshi and Lip in the background of Tetris Attack blocks so I dunno what to tell you.

Well that was one obvious thing you could tell me.
None of that comes across from their website.

Nah, it's cool.
When I posted that, I had skipped ahead to the gameplay on the tutorial vid from their site and saw a bunch of Pokeshit.
I thought that when you posted that query, maybe they'd just elected to show off a bunch of mods that highlight the customisation aspects and I was being LOUD AND DUMB ON THE INTERNET.
But, no, they just straight up have assets from the most strike-happy legal team in the industry swimming about in their game.

Like I said, it's a fangame and no money is changing hands so it's whatever.
But part of me is also like, put Yoshi's pants back on, y'know?

[Sumez]

Lol wow that is fucking weird. They had absolutely no reason to do that unless they want to get sued.

(which isn't even implausible - it seems getting C&Ds from Nintendo has proven to be an extremely effective way to get public attention to fan projects)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I decided instead of bouncing off Zelda 2 constantly like I always seem to, I'd make a determined effort to get through it. Started with the first game though, I'm quite familiar with the first quest but had basically no memory of the second quest aside from the beginning.

First quest is really well designed. For such an early NES game, the flow of it is really good and it encourages you to wander and explore. Even if you don't know what you're doing, it's not too tough early on to find resources or simply clear the first few dungeons once located which gives you access to the white sword. It's entirely possible to quadruple your effective health by finding several heart containers and getting the blue ring early on if you want, but this isn't strictly necessary. Items are laid out in dungeons in a logical order, but also one that allows for a bit of sequence breaking if you like.

First quest spoilers!

As far as finding secrets goes, there's a few spots that are suspicious enough that it's not too farfetched to try bombing them, revealing early heart containers. The blue candle can actually be ignored entirely, and you can wait until you get the red candle to actually burn down trees. The heart tank hidden in a tree is fairly tough to find, but the level 8 dungeon is quite easy to locate. The game is setup so you really don't need to find every single item to complete it, which is nice.

The dungeons also have the bomb upgrade rooms positioned in areas visible on the map, so they're not obtuse to find, and waiting to find bombable walls in the overworld after you have 12 or 16 max bombs is entirely doable. I find farming bombs fairly quick from the darker moblins that shoot arrows, and you get rewarded for killing many enemies without getting hit with better drops, which is cool.

There's nothing too obtuse going on, there's old men who give hints for most things, and it all works pretty well I think, giving you a vast, sprawling adventure that feels pretty polished considering how early an NES game it was. Great fun, and nowhere as obtuse as say Castlevania 2 was.

And then there's the second quest. It's brutally hard, and the dungeons are extremely obtuse. Colour_thief referred to this as a "Lost Levels" feel of a Zelda quest and I'm inclined to agree. It's fun, but the level structure and difficulty are a huge step up and I was tearing my hear out at some points. Satisfied to get through it, but there's some downright evil design here and you don't want to go into the second quest unless you're patient and prepared for a proper Hard Mode feel:

Second quest spoilers!

The second quest's overworld isn't much different at first glance. Rooms have the same enemies, generally speaking, but several dungeons have their positions swapped or hidden. What really changes early on is how little there is to find; there is very little in the way of rupees to find and quite literally zero heart containers are hidden in bombable walls or burnable trees. It's not even possible to get the white sword early on; you need to beat at least one dungeon to get a heart container, because all of the heart containers except one are now gated behind dungeon items.

The first dungeon now has stalfos (the skeletons) that fire lynel swords and can kill you in two hits. The second dungeon and every one after has tons of rooms with magical statues that shoot at you, meaning you really need to get an upgraded shield pronto to feel safe. I had to grind for the blue ring early on to safely survive. You generally spend a LOT more rupees in the second quest. Not just health potions, but you need to give bait to proceed twice, and there's three or four rooms in total where you're asked to trade a heart container permanently (lol no) or 50 rupees to proceed. It's pricy stuff, and takes a fair bit of killing enemies.

I highly recommend taking a walk after the first dungeon and finding the only heart container you can get at this point. It's a hike, but it's the only one that doesn't require a dungeon item to obtain, and with level 1 cleared, you can get the white sword. Which is very, very helpful, given that finding the note to buy medicine is also rather difficult now, and level 2's boss is the really difficult multi-headed dragon! The tricky thing is level 2's item requires discovering the second quest's new gimmick: hidden passages. You push on the wall briefly and then it lets you walk through. It's not too hard to trigger accidentally as it's obvious something's hiding in the room and you'll likely trigger it as you try to push up against the wall to bomb it.

Level 3 is hilariously short, like the shortest dungeon in both quests if you ignore getting the boomerang from it. It's also not tough to find. Level 4 introduces red and blue bubbles. Red bubbles permanently disable your sword (but not your other weapons) until you touch a blue bubble, OR until you visit a fairy, obtain a triforce, or use a medicine. Basically, get a full heal and when it's done healing it cures the disable effect. Unfortunately, the magic wand comes far later in the most difficult to navigate dungeon, so you won't be able to use it to melee enemies early on when you're disabled! This new, obtuse gimmick, also comes when the dungeons now introduce tons of one-way passages, far more than was used in the first quest

Then, Level 5 introduces wizzrobes, fortunately in a way that you can run past most of them, but still earlier than before, and when you're likely not in good shape. I had to go actively hunting for the medicine and all the heart tanks I could get to survive here. It turns out that the recorder is now used to find an absurd number of secrets on the overworld, rather than opening one specific dungeon. There are two heart containers hidden this way, as well as tons of other medicine shops, free rupees, and at least one guy who steals your money to repair his door. There's a lot of those guys in the second quest. :/ The remaining heart containers require the raft and the ladder, so you can't get them until much later than the first quest.

Then there's Level 6. It's brutally tough and packed with wizzrobes, similar to the first quest. Unlike the first quest, it's tricky to find, but it's still much easier to find than the far more vexing Level 7 and Level 8, so you're unlikely to be able to sequence break on a first playthrough. There's so many secrets hidden that you may well discover that you're expected to use the recorder/whistle everywhere now purely by accident when trying to warp somewhere, and since there's a fairy hidden now where level 5 used to be (the recorder uses the warp locations of the first quest) it also lets you quickly access full healing as needed without walking far.

Level 7 and 8 are utterly vexing to find, perhaps among the most maddening exploration things in the entire game. Level 8 has a hint in Level 6 at least; you just need to work out what it's referring to and figure out where to look. There's a few arrow shaped structures in the game, but few have anything immediately accessible to the south, and one you'll have already found. Still, searching them all will, eventually, get you level 8. It helps if you think about using the ladder you find in level 6. I ended up finding level 8 first, beat it, completely missed the magic wand in it, and left. It's very annoying, has some of the most complicated staircase and one way doors with at least one room that requires a reset if you go into it without sufficient bombs. Brutal. The enemies at least aren't too tough, it's just finding your way around that's so weird.

Level 7 took me a solid couple of hours to find. I quite literally walked over the entire map, blowing the recorder on every screen, explored the dungeons again to try and see if I'd missed a red candle. Nope, turns out the only noteworthy secret hidden beneath a tree (aside from 100 rupees) is the dungeon where you get the red candle. Finding it was a tedious process of trying every tree I could think of, and I was especially peeved when it turns out it was close to where Level 8 was on the first quest. The dungeon itself was much easier than Level 6, mostly blue darknuts who are quite manageable with the magical sword. Having to carry a bunch of excess rupees for the old men was annoying, wasn't in the mood to give up heart containers.

Level 9 of the second quest, as it turns out, is actually easier than in the first quest. The number of red and blue bubbles is pretty minimal, with blue bubbles appearing soon after any red bubbles, and you can get the silver arrow much earlier if you happen to go the right way. Lets you actually use it for a bit of the dungeon rather than showing up right before Ganon. The dungeon's large, but it has fewer confusing staircase passageways, so it's easier to map out and navigate in my experience. It does do something unique though, the final path to Ganon is a one-way with a staircase you can't open back up, so exiting requires a reset (or Up + A on controller 2 when paused to save and exit). However, I was in good shape when I made it to Ganon, and he has no new tricks from the first quest.

Fun game, but the second quest is strictly optional I think; its difficulty is far harder, and while I found the new elements fun and challenging, the difficulty scaling definitely feels far rougher and more brutal early on.

Onto Zelda 2, the first thing I notice is how much of a difference a few levels in attack power makes. It's really, REALLY helpful to level that up quickly.

[Sumez]

For a similar approach to Zelda 2, I recommend just grabbing the candle first as usual, and then beeline directly to death mountain and get the downstab before you tackle anything else.
Death mountain will be incredibly challenging and should mostly be rushed through without trying to fight off more than you need to (a stigma for most of the game really, I don't think I ever kill anything in the last dungeon), but the rest of the game becomes much more fun when you have the downstab.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

but the rest of the game becomes much more fun when you have the downstab.

Ah, makes sense. I remember the copy I inherited as a kid had a save file at the end of the game I tried out of curiosity and found the up and down stabs interesting, but deleted it to make my own game and then discovered they weren't in the normal moveset. I seem to recall if you play "normally" it takes a while to get to the downstab.

bumpedit:

The best source of exp I've found so far to grind on would be the cave south of the starting palace, if only I could work out what causes enemies to respawn. It's quite a lot of exp, no exp-draining enemies, and isn't too tough. I think I know why I didn't get into this as a kid, the fact that enemies drop no healing and only magic refills occasionally means the early game especially is rough going. You have to go through the first two palaces I think before the heal spell is accessible if memory serves.

The shield spell seems to deflect a lot of damage, it's not just half but like 70% damage reduction maybe? It's over 50% for sure.

One oddity I notice: saving the game by pausing and pressing Up+A on controller 2 causes the "deaths" counter on the main menu to increment by 1, something that didn't happen in the first game. Is there any bonus to beating it with the counter at 0? I think Link's Awakening had something for 0 deaths, an extra picture of Marin at the end, but that's all I know of.

The melee reminds me now of Dark Souls, haha. It's like you're using a shield with a rapier; I keep forgetting that unlike many games, Link does NOT stop blocking when stabbing forward, so aggressive attacks don't diminish your defense against blockable attacks much.

[Sumez]

One oddity I notice: saving the game by pausing and pressing Up+A on controller 2 causes the "deaths" counter on the main menu to increment by 1, something that didn't happen in the first game. Is there any bonus to beating it with the counter at 0? I think Link's Awakening had something for 0 deaths, an extra picture of Marin at the end, but that's all I know of.

Nah it's just a counter.

I don't think you need to grind anywhere in Zelda 2, it's not worth it. With the exception that minding you exp level when beating a palace pays off in a really satisfying way.
You always gain the next available level-up after beating one, so the further you are from that, the more you gain from it! That's also a good reason to spread out your stats evenly.
It's really more of a routing thing really, but it can be affected with some minor grinding to make sure you've just gained a level before going to the boss. This way you'll always have the most important stats as high as they need before heading to the final palace.

[SuperDeadite]

One thing to note in Zelda 2 is that once you are maxed, a level up grants a 1up. So, it's good to grind early, so you can use the palace level ups to stack lives before the final area, as it gets a bit annoying at the end. Note that the JP original has a fairer level curve and FM enhanced music. But the USA has some exclusive bosses and unique colors. Hard to say which I prefer...

[Sumez]

I don't think you really need any extra lives for the final palace when you know what you're doing. It's a massive dungeon, but you can beeline right for the boss very fast without having to fight much of anything.

IMO the biggest difficulty spike in the game is in and around the ocean palace. That's where I die the most.

IIRC my stats are usually all one point from max at the end of the game, which is more than sufficient.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Made it to the second palace. I made a brief trip into It's rather tough, but manageable... no new magic yet to play with other than Shield and Jump, so not sure if I'm meant to do this immediately or skip it and go elsewhere. According to the manual's map, past the bridge (stumbled on Bagu and his note) is Death Mountain. Gave it a try, it's awful. I briefly tried to map it out, had to resort to healing by standing on forest tiles, and moving off into the safe road tiles until a fairy appeared and hoped for a fairy. Only to discover the middle area of it seems to lead you in circles to dead ends, and the actual path doesn't seem to even go near those forest tiles? It's a really vexing maze. I have an idea where to go, just need to get there without too much life loss.

Haven't died yet this run for a change, though I came rather close while wandering in there. Good to know about the death / save counter thing. It seems your lives and current exp are reset if you save and quit which means any extras are wasted (!!). Rude.

The game starts off really hard due to not having any way to get health back from fighting enemies. I know there's a healing spell, I imagine that makes things much smoother as you can find easy fights to get magic potions off of.

I don't think you really need any extra lives for the final palace when you know what you're doing. It's a massive dungeon, but you can beeline right for the boss very fast without having to fight much of anything.

Helpful to know I guess for a second playthrough, doesn't help me on a first playthrough when I'm not using a guide or map! Pretty much everything past the first Palace is new to me, I have no memory of it.

I don't think you need to grind anywhere in Zelda 2, it's not worth it.

I strongly disagree, smacking the bubbles in the first palace for a while to get up to 3s and 4s in stats was quite helpful. The bubbles go down rather quick at attach strength 3 and are both easy, respawnable, and more rewarding than other harder enemies. There's a number of enemies that are really hard to evade that benefit from having inflated raw stats to deal with them... I find the boomerang guys the hardest, though I can tell getting the downstab will likely make a massive difference as they have no way of defending once you're in their face.

[Sumez]

Oh I'm talking entirely about playing the game as someone who has played it before. A blind playthrough is bound to be drastically different.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Finally made it to the beach outside Death Mountain. It's cute that it's the Zelda 1 map in miniature... with nothing in the trees or cemetery except scary monsters. :/ I cleared out the cave, got the hammer, but only after sitting in a doorway and fishing for fairies to appear. I spent a long, LONG time hunting for fairies because the red axe throwing dudes take off so much health, especially if they swing twice quickly before I can jump over the axes. Man, what a brutally tough game, I'm not sure if farming for fairy encounters to heal is intended or not to beat this, I'm resorting to what I need to. >w>

[SuperDeadite]

You know that every 6th bot you kill will drop a blue jar and every 6th bit will drop a red jar. These enemies always respawn on screen switch. You can use these to quickly refil magic after using life spell.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yes, but since I can't find the mirror for the life of me (and there's no hints from the townspeople where the damn thing is, I'm sure it's what gets the healing spell since the order of spells in the menu has a nice big gap in the third spot), farming magic only serves to give me uses of Shield, Jump, Fairy, or Fire presently.

Quite literally the only non-town healing I have is fairies. It sucks. I have the downstab, which is nice to have, I dealt with the second palace whose boss absolutely sucks to hit unless you have the downstab, and went into the third palace which is filled with awful enemies that hit hard even with Shield up and Life 7, but fortunately gives the raft early on. Took a ride across the ocean to a land that's make me convinced this is Nintendo branded kusoge. There's now a bunch of enemies that require the Fire spell to obtain. It costs me a whole magic segment to use each time, eating into my supply steadily with the same damn encounters every few steps.

edit: finding the thing in town for the Fire spell suggested maybe the Life spell also needed a thing found in the town and I checked more thoroughly, so that's that problem solved, woulda been nice for Death Mountain. :V As Sumez suggested, knowing about what to expect likely smooths out a bunch of issues but I'm not sure the package as a whole is redeemed on a second playthrough experience.

I want anyone who's whined about the encounter rate in Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Mother, etc, to eat an absolutely giant bag of dicks. Their random encounters are over with much faster, you actually gain from fighting them, you have way more options to deal with fights, and don't drain your resources to the extent these here do. The random encounters here are, in a word, shit. Friends who've said this game would not be particularly interesting or notable if not for the Zelda branding are correct. Its balancing is fundamentally awful; the Life spell frankly shoulda come where Jump was to make the generally janky melee combat more manageable, but even with it, I've got very high stats and unless I cast Shield every fight things are taking off entire life segments. Checking walls in the first game with bombs or the blue candle may be a bit tedious, but at least you can kill off enemies and then do it without constant interruptions from new enemies.

There's no useful tools to flesh out your moveset that don't eat into your main consumable resource, and the encounter rate on the field makes searching for hidden things on tiles an awful, repetitive chore. I've basically lost any enthusiasm for it. I'll beat it, but not with any particular enjoyment or gusto.

There's considerably worse NES titles on the system but that's not saying much, and they're not generally games from well regarded developers.