What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[Sumez]

Nah man. Wand of Gamelon and Faces of Evil are fantastic.

Are they terrible games? Sure. Are they fun as hell to play? Yeah, honestly. Even the incessant backtracking isn't really as bad as people will have you believe, and the hilarious cutscenes (intended or not) are sprinkled frequently enough throughout that you won't get bored. And when you die to some absurdly impossible to discern hitbox, it was at least pretty funny that they made it that way, and you'll know what to do next time around.

[Lemnear]

But I got the CDi games working tonight, so uh… the worst may be yet to come.

Are they terrible games? Sure. Are they fun as hell to play? Yeah, honestly

It's worth playing just for the cinematics, it's impossible not to laugh, i think it's the most official form of meme ever created, every single screen is a masterpiece of trashyness.
While you're in the CDi realm, don't forget Mutant Rampage: Bodyslam.

[Lemnear]

I got BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle 2.0 (only 12.49 €/$ instead of 49.99. Contains all DLC!!!)
It's a crossover, and since i've played a lot of BlazBlue, Arcana Heart 3 and Persona 4 Arena in the past (and they're all there, plus more), i got it without thinking twice.
I've dusted off my old mains (too bad they're not all there) and i'm learning new ones, the game is incredibly fun! There are too many interesting characters to use and possible team combinations. Stratospheric soundtrack and all the 2D style of Arc System Works (not the pseudo-anime 3D one of Guilty Gear and DBZ)
As soon as i feel comfortable again i'll challenge the few remaining ones on the Discord .

[To Far Away Times]

But I got the CDi games working tonight, so uh… the worst may be yet to come.

Are they terrible games? Sure. Are they fun as hell to play? Yeah, honestly

It's worth playing just for the cinematics, it's impossible not to laugh, i think it's the most official form of meme ever created, every single screen is a masterpiece of trashyness.
While you're in the CDi realm, don't forget Mutant Rampage: Bodyslam.

[To Far Away Times]

I started with Faces of Evil and it is so bad oh my god. Link's walk cycle is comically bad, controls are terrible, hit boxes are random, there's a million enemies attacking you all the time, and even from the opening screen it's difficult AF for some reason. Yeah, I'm not playing through these. I think I'll just watch the cut scenes on YouTube.

Having finished all of the mainline Zelda games, I thought I'd do a ranking for the whole series. Here goes.

Zelda Listicle


Do not recommend tier:

17. Spirit Tracks - This game just kinda sucks and there's really nothing redeeming about it.
16. Zelda 1 - I will probably take some heat for this placement, but playing this for the first time in 2024, I really didn't care for this game all that much.
15. Zelda 2 - An improvement over Zelda 1. Same obtuse progression, but played with a guide you can turn this game into a poor man's Castlevania.

Playable, but with some caveats:

14. Wind Waker - Flame Shield Activate! This will be a controversial placement. The opening of Wind Waker is really strong, and I love the art, but the game absolutely falls apart after the third dungeon. I really, really do not like the second half progression in this, which knocks it down several places. A real shame, because there's an unfinished and unpolished game underneath that could have been really special with another year in development. Probably the most uneven game of high peaks and low falls in the entire series.
13. Oracle of Seasons - Solid but unspectacular entry in the series. Ambitious and competent but very derivative of Link's Awakening.
12. Oracle of Ages - Slightly better than Oracle of Seasons with a smoother progression through the game, but lacking a bit in world map, characters, and story relative to it's twin.
11. Tears of the Kingdom - Perhaps the hardest game to place on this list. Mechanically, this game is brilliant and might be the most ambitious game in history in regards to it's programming and design. But I put 330 hours into Breath of the Wild, and reusing the same map really hurt this game and the exploration focus. However, if you haven't played Breath of the Wild first, I could see this placing much higher.

Recommended tier:

10. Majora's Mask - No game on this list climbed higher in my esteem than Majora's Mask during this playthrough. Though I have some qualms with the progression, recylced assets, and certain unpolished elements; the vibes, story, characters, atmosphere and final set piece are so good that I can forgive a few flaws. It's a testament to how good this series is that this game can place this low.
9. Skyward Sword - A very solid game. I actually really like the controls in this, both the waggle or the optional right joystick in the HD version. My only caveat with this game is that this is a really good and lean 25 hour game padded out to a 35 hour one. Sometimes less is more. I don't need to repeat a boss fight three separate times for story reasons.

Highly Recommended tier:

8. Minish Cap - Really impressive sprite art, animation and music in this. Might be my favorite looking game on the system. Great items too. Feels like one of the 3D entries, but rendered in 2D. The shrinking mechanic is expertly handled too.
7. Phantom Hourglass - Basically Super Wind Waker ++, this game realizes the potential that Wind Waker left on the table. It's sailing mechanics are vastly improved, and it's a consistently high quality adventure throughout. The stylus control may be off-putting for some, but I actually really enjoyed it. The repeated dungeon was stressful in a fun way, and also had a speed running mechanic which I enjoyed.
6. A Link Between Worlds - Really cool game that gave the series a shot in the arm after several similar entries. Generally very high quality all the way through, and some of the best use of stereoscopic 3D on the system.

Must play tier:

5.Link to the Past - This game (along with Link's Awakening which were co-developed together), laid the ground work for what future Zelda games would become. It's hard to overstate just how much of an improvement this game is over it's predecessors. My only gripe with the game is that the sprite work is not quite up to the usual Nintendo standards, but the soundtrack is excellent and the progression through the game is very good.
4. Link's Awakening - Best game on the Game Boy by a mile, and it's crazy to see how much more advanced it is than it's 8-bit NES predecessors, which ran at roughly double the resolution. Great story and a dreamy atmosphere round out one of Link's best adventures.
3. Twilight Princess - I know some people are down on this game but I fucking love it. It is the perfect game to showcase what a Zelda game is. It has the best items and dungeons in the series. It has the best companion. But the real pièce de résistance is the atmospheric "Midna's desperate hour" section, where the screen is drained of color, and the heavy rain and an absolutely incredible song carry the best story beat in the entire series. It was also the first game I ever played with gyroscopic aiming. A feature I absolutely can not live with out, and I won't play any modern day FPS or 3rd person shooter games without it.
2. Ocarina of Time - It's legendary, it taught 3D game design to everyone else and influenced every game that has auto jumping and Z targeting. It has an iconic soundtrack. It felt a whole generation ahead of every other game ever made when it came out. I don't really need to go on about it. We all know it's great.
1.Breath of the Wild - Perhaps my favorite game of all time. I love the chemistry system and just playing around with things and seeing how alive the world is and what you can do in it. I combed through every inch of that massive map and I still wanted more. Probably the most fun game to just go exploring ever. The opening hours, where the game is quite difficult, and you're learning the rules are absolutely magical. I was discovering new environmental actions and synergies hundreds of hours in. And it's the most perfectly paced game of all time, you can end the game anytime you want by running straight to the final boss. How cool is that?

[Sumez]

13. Oracle of Seasons - Solid but unspectacular entry in the series.

along with Link's Awakening which were co-developed together

Not sure where you picked up that idea, it's definitely not true
By the time Zelda 3 came out, everyone started asking for a Zelda 4. It took a while before we'd even hear anything about the Game Boy game.
It came out just two years later, but in 1993 that was still a long dev cycle for a video game

[guigui]

Having finished all of the mainline Zelda games, I thought I'd do a ranking for the whole series. Here goes.
...

Great work ! No idea how you could handle all those games in a row, apart from ALTTP I get tired from those Zelda games quite quickly and need a break.

Not mainline game, but have you tried Cadence of Hyrule: Crypt of the NecroDancer Featuring The Legend of Zelda ? Definitely not typical Zelda gameplay style, but the whole Zelda/Hyrule setting is there, and I had a very good time with it.

[Air Master Burst]

I still can't imagine being wowed by Ocarina if you played LttP first, since it's basically the same game from a different perspective.

Majora's added far more to the formula and used the third dimension much more dynamically.

Then again, I loved sailing in Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess bored me so much I only did the first dungeon and haven't played a Zelda game since. I'm probably a poor judge of 3D Zeldas.

[it290]

I stand by the first game in the series being the best relative to how transformative it was when it came out. Sure, the sparsity of hints is antithetical to today's game design, but when you did finally find the next secret or thing that let you progress the feeling of accomplishment was unparalleled. I still find it the most fun game in the series to just pick up and play because there's no futzing around with dialogue, fetch quests, extra collectibles, etc.

As far as the 2D games go, I'd also argue that the Oracle games are quite a bit better than Minish Cap. I replayed the latter on a plane ride earlier this year and although I agree that the artwork is great, the level design is pretty average and the game does a lot of stuff animation and dialogue wise to waste your time.

[To Far Away Times]

Double Post

[To Far Away Times]

Double Post

[To Far Away Times]

Not sure where you picked up that idea, it's definitely not true
By the time Zelda 3 came out, everyone started asking for a Zelda 4. It took a while before we'd even hear anything about the Game Boy game.
It came out just two years later, but in 1993 that was still a long dev cycle for a video game

I stand corrected.

Great work ! No idea how you could handle all those games in a row, apart from ALTTP I get tired from those Zelda games quite quickly and need a break.

Not mainline game, but have you tried Cadence of Hyrule: Crypt of the NecroDancer Featuring The Legend of Zelda ? Definitely not typical Zelda gameplay style, but the whole Zelda/Hyrule setting is there, and I had a very good time with it.

Thanks! Yeah, it's kind of a challenge, but it becomes a meta game in and of itself. Sorta like trying to clear a bunch of shmups.

I haven't tried Cadence of Hyrule but I've heard good things.

I still can't imagine being wowed by Ocarina if you played LttP first, since it's basically the same game from a different perspective.

Well, that's part of the magic, imo. Lots of series that made the jump to 3D didn't play the same. Mario 64, Sonic Adventure, Megaman Legends, Castlevania 64, Donkey Kong 64... all big franchises that barely resemble the gameplay of their 2D entries. Ocarina plays pretty much exactly like LttP but with a new perspective. And more than maybe any other Nintendo series, Zelda benefits the most from 3D. It's like the games were designed for it from the beginning and the technology caught up to make it possible. And there's still plenty of new things Ocarina establishes for the series; you have the introduction of the Gorons, Zora, Deku Scrubs, and a Ganon redesign from a boar to a human which would all be staples in pretty much every Zelda going forward.

Then again, I loved sailing in Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess bored me so much I only did the first dungeon and haven't played a Zelda game since. I'm probably a poor judge of 3D Zeldas.

To be fair the start of Twilight Princess is kinda slow. Slower than probably any other Zelda game.

I stand by the first game in the series being the best relative to how transformative it was when it came out. Sure, the sparsity of hints is antithetical to today's game design, but when you did finally find the next secret or thing that let you progress the feeling of accomplishment was unparalleled. I still find it the most fun game in the series to just pick up and play because there's no futzing around with dialogue, fetch quests, extra collectibles, etc.

I really think this is a "You had to be there" game. I know a lot of people love it, but I didn't play it until recently and it's hard not to look at what every game in the series does better. I did consider leaving it off the list or making it an honorary title, as playing it for the first time in 2024 is pretty unfair. And hey, I still liked it more than Spirit Tracks.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I really think this is a "You had to be there" game. I know a lot of people love it, but I didn't play it until recently and it's hard not to look at what every game in the series does better.

Nah, the reason it's stood the test of time is when you know about the sillier stuff and have a rough idea where to look for hidden entrances, it's one of the more replayable games. The dungeons and overworld are very fun to wander and have a satisfying level of challenge, as well as non-linearity that many of the later games simply don't have. It's actually very much like BotW in that sense.

You've complained about the tedium of finding secrets with bombs and the candle, but there's plenty worse games out there even on the NES. And the level of obtuseness of its puzzles definitely never rises to the level of Fez where people are still arguing about how you're supposed to know the solution to the final black monolith puzzle (after they've brute forced the puzzle and are working backwards to see how you're supposed to figure it out logically). And even after you've solved the major puzzles, the game remains fun to replay, has some fun potentially challenges in there like "no sword (except for ganon)" runs to spice things up.

[Marc]

I still can't imagine being wowed by Ocarina if you played LttP first, since it's basically the same game from a different perspective.

Majora's added far more to the formula and used the third dimension much more dynamically.

Then again, I loved sailing in Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess bored me so much I only did the first dungeon and haven't played a Zelda game since. I'm probably a poor judge of 3D Zeldas.

The 3D absolutely transformed it though. And despite there being 3D games prior, I can't think of a single one that used the third dimension si incredibly for the time.

[Sumez]

Ocarina is an absurdly influential game for sure, hell for 3D action adventure design in general, spanning many genres. It'd be crazy to deny its legacy.

Yet all the same, I did find myself in that same boat. I played the game on release, being pretty much as big of a Zelda fans as I'd ever be right at that very point in my life. I was super hyped for it.
And ultimately, though I came out appreciative of all the ways familiar concepts, enemy designs, and gameplay mechanics were elegantly transformed into 3D space - I was also surprisingly underwhelmed.
It was impossible not to compare it to A Link to the Past, and from my perspective at the time it just failed in every aspect I could face off between the two. The exploration heavy adventure overworld replaced by a barren field. Fewer dungeons. Tedious dialogue and interactions to draw out what felt like less content.

Don't get me wrong, Ocarina of Time is a fantastic game, and I did enjoy it a lot even then. But teenage Sumez wasn't as wowed by it as you'd imagine looking back now and seeing how original it must have seemed, given how many game design standards were conceived here.
Mario 64 meanwhile absolutely blew my god damn mind the first time I saw it, in ways that must seem hard to really understand looking back at it now. It was far from the first 3D game, but I'd never seen anything that truly felt like it branched off into every axis the way that game did.

[XoPachi]

Every time I go back to 64 I find myself stopping to just fuck with Mario's movement. That game feels *perfect*. And I feel like you get so much more out of it than later Mario games. But starting with Galaxy, they just started to feel worse imo.
Galaxy is the worst of it, feeling like wading through a swamp usually and no difficulty reason for it.

[To Far Away Times]

Ocarina is an absurdly influential game for sure, hell for 3D action adventure design in general, spanning many genres. It'd be crazy to deny its legacy.

Yet all the same, I did find myself in that same boat. I played the game on release, being pretty much as big of a Zelda fans as I'd ever be right at that very point in my life. I was super hyped for it.
And ultimately, though I came out appreciative of all the ways familiar concepts, enemy designs, and gameplay mechanics were elegantly transformed into 3D space - I was also surprisingly underwhelmed.
It was impossible not to compare it to A Link to the Past, and from my perspective at the time it just failed in every aspect I could face off between the two. The exploration heavy adventure overworld replaced by a barren field. Fewer dungeons. Tedious dialogue and interactions to draw out what felt like less content.

Don't get me wrong, Ocarina of Time is a fantastic game, and I did enjoy it a lot even then. But teenage Sumez wasn't as wowed by it as you'd imagine looking back now and seeing how original it must have seemed, given how many game design standards were conceived here.
Mario 64 meanwhile absolutely blew my god damn mind the first time I saw it, in ways that must seem hard to really understand looking back at it now. It was far from the first 3D game, but I'd never seen anything that truly felt like it branched off into every axis the way that game did.

Well, there can only be one "Mario 64 moment" and that was the game to capture it. Not even the first 3D game that I played, but the first 3D game to really understand 3D space and how to move around. It was a total gamechanger. After Mario 64, ten year old To Far Away Times thought anything was possible in gaming. Truly a magical game.

[Lander]

The LttP / Ocarina generational split is a long-standing facet of Zelda as a whole; both are great, but their relative impact is going to depend on where you were when they came out, and ability to see across the fence will vary by individual

I'm more on the Ocarina side; it and Link's Awakening were formative, so it took a while to figure out exactly what the fuss was about after first touching LttP. It still doesn't necessarily rock my world these days, but is undeniably impressive in scope.

[Air Master Burst]

The LttP / Ocarina generational split is a long-standing facet of Zelda as a whole; both are great, but their relative impact is going to depend on where you were when they came out, and ability to see across the fence will vary by individual

I think it's mostly down to both games having nearly identical items, which leads to them sharing a lot of puzzles. I imagine the other one always kinda feels like a remix of whichever game a person played first.

The 3D absolutely transformed it though. And despite there being 3D games prior, I can't think of a single one that used the third dimension si incredibly for the time.

You mean on consoles, right? Wing Commander, Magic Carpet, and Descent were all doing full 3D flight while the SNES was still struggling with Star Fox. Hell, even Quake dropped before the N64 came out.

I was super unimpressed when my friends tried to show off Mario 64 after Christmas of 96. Wave Race was the first thing that actually impressed me on the N64. I think the snow in 1080 was the second.

[Nugs]

Ocarina is an absurdly influential game for sure, hell for 3D action adventure design in general, spanning many genres. It'd be crazy to deny its legacy.

Yet all the same, I did find myself in that same boat. I played the game on release, being pretty much as big of a Zelda fans as I'd ever be right at that very point in my life. I was super hyped for it.
And ultimately, though I came out appreciative of all the ways familiar concepts, enemy designs, and gameplay mechanics were elegantly transformed into 3D space - I was also surprisingly underwhelmed.
It was impossible not to compare it to A Link to the Past, and from my perspective at the time it just failed in every aspect I could face off between the two. The exploration heavy adventure overworld replaced by a barren field. Fewer dungeons. Tedious dialogue and interactions to draw out what felt like less content.

Don't get me wrong, Ocarina of Time is a fantastic game, and I did enjoy it a lot even then. But teenage Sumez wasn't as wowed by it as you'd imagine looking back now and seeing how original it must have seemed, given how many game design standards were conceived here.
Mario 64 meanwhile absolutely blew my god damn mind the first time I saw it, in ways that must seem hard to really understand looking back at it now. It was far from the first 3D game, but I'd never seen anything that truly felt like it branched off into every axis the way that game did.

This captures my feeling perfectly as well.
Ocarina didn't stick with my like ALTTP did.
And Mario 64 and Wave Race blew me away much more as early 3d games.

[Sumez]

You mean on consoles, right? Wing Commander, Magic Carpet, and Descent were all doing full 3D flight while the SNES was still struggling with Star Fox. Hell, even Quake dropped before the N64 came out.

I was super unimpressed when my friends tried to show off Mario 64 after Christmas of 96. Wave Race was the first thing that actually impressed me on the N64. I think the snow in 1080 was the second.

Are you comparing Wing Commander and Magic Carpet to Mario 64?
Quake is probably the most truly three dimensional game I had played before Mario 64 came around, and that didn't keep Mario from rocking my world either. The other games you mentioned feel extremely restrictive about tying the player to a single axis through their world. It's not really the existance of a 3D camera or rendered polygons that made the difference. What blew my mind about Mario 64 wasn't the graphics, but the unrestricted feel of completely free movement.
Quake obviously had the technology to do the same thing, but there's something fundamentally different about how it feels, making it much more obviously an iteration on Doom. This is what I meant by it being hard to really understand when you go back now and try to make direct comparisons. And I love Quake by the way.

By the time Ocarina of Time came around we were already in the late 90s, the 3D code was well and truly cracked, and Mario 64 wasn't really unique anymore - even ignoring the fact that Zelda never offers the same amount of three dimensional freedom Mario did.
At least to me it definitely didn't feel unique for being 3D, even if seeing Zelda in 3D for the first time was still exciting. Personally I didn't really pick up on all the things it managed to codify for future 3D games, at least not until much later.

Galaxy is the worst of it, feeling like wading through a swamp usually and no difficulty reason for it.

Galaxy is likely the best 3D platform game ever made

[Steven]

Astro Bot crashed on me yesterday and then put me somewhere completely different from where I was prior to the crash when I restarted the game. That was weird. Game's fine otherwise. I wouldn't call it the greatest game of the century or anything like everyone else seems to be doing, but it's pretty okay for a 3D platformer. Most of the time 3D platformers put me to sleep, so it's nice to have one that doesn't for once.

[Sima Tuna]

3D platformer fans have been eating so poorly for so long, it isn't surprising if people feel the need to gush over a new IP with the right stuff.

Let's ignore mario for a minute, and just ask what other 3d platformers of quality have released? There have been a few indie games, to be sure. Spark the Electric Jester. Penny's Big Breakaway. A few games like that. Not much else.

If you love 3d platformers, you've not had much choice in the last 15 or so years.

[Sumez]

Ever since the PS1 generation, Nintendo have been pretty much the only major studio who would even dare making a big budget 3D platformer. It's been delegated to weird off-shoots and indie games ever since.

If Astro Bot goes well, hopefully that means more AAA studios will start focusing on video games that actually feel like games again, instead of that privilege being exclusive to Nintendo.

[Steven]

3D platformers are surprisingly uncommon as it is. There aren't really a lot of them compared to other types of games, and few of note not made by Nintendo, so it does indeed make sense. For instance, I wasn't really that impressed by the demo for Penny's Big Breakaway. It's a fine game, but not quite what I'm looking for. It seems that it might have been somewhat rushed to market, which probably doesn't help.

Part of the problem is that I'm not really sure what it is that I actually am looking for in a 3D platformer. I liked Mario Odyssey, Sonic Generations, Sonic Colors, Astro's Playroom, and now Astro Bot, and that's about it, but I guess Jumping Flash is also pretty cool. Mirror's Edge as well, if you want to consider that a 3D platformer, and I don't really see why not.

I do need to give Mario Galaxy another attempt. I've tried it a few times, but never been able to really get into it for some reason even though I really want to. It has everything that I should like (space and space stuff, mostly), but I always lose interest for some reason. I think I have Galaxy 2 somewhere, but I've never played it. I'll try to find it if I can. Hopefully my Wii U still works. I've heard they have an expiration date or something crazy like that and I haven't used mine for several years.

Still, I'd rather have more games like Astro Bot (or even Sonic 06 lol) than open world fetch quest simulators.

[Sumez]

Galaxy is the least fetch'y of the 3D Marios which is one of the primary things I like about it. Abstract level design and pure gameplay focus are the best stages. The few actually open ended stages are rare enough that they feel like a nice breather when they do show up.

Also, Returnal is secretly a really fun 3D Platformer, but few people seem willing to define it as one. If Mirror's Edge qualifies, Returnal absolutely does.

[Steven]

I never realized that about Galaxy before, but yeah, it is pretty straightforward. I'll have to give it another shot, maybe once I am done with Astro Bot.

Don't know anything about Returnal, though, other than that it exists. Time to do some research.

Hm, Housemarque. That's a good sign already.

[Sumez]

I didn't like Mario Sunshine that much when it came out, but it had those cool mini challenge stages where Mario would lose his water jetpack and you'd have to jump through a completely abstract stage of moving obstacles. That was by far my favourite parts of the game.
And Galaxy is basically all that.

[Steven]

That's my favourite part of Sunshine too. Those parts are cool and fun. Too bad they are so short. Definitely have to give Galaxy another attempt.

[XoPachi]

Galaxy is likely the best 3D platform game ever made

Genuinely don't get the acclaim to this day.