NES: Gun-Nac vs Zanac vs The Guardian Legend?

[DatPhosphorGlow]

Looking to get a new vertical NES SHMUP, have narrowed it down to these three. Looking for opinions on which one to go with. Cost of cart is irrelevant (I know Gun-Nac is stupid expensive).

To be honest I most probably will never play The Guardian Legend without the TGL code that allows you to skip all the non-SHMUP parts of the game. So let's leave those non SHMUP aspects out when/if giving The Guardian Legend any points over the other two games. I know there are some die hard The Guardian Legend fans that love that aspect of the game.

Appreciate any input.

Which one is the hardest? Why? (I really prefer a challenge, unless it's cheap/broken).

Which one is the most flawed? Why?

Which one is the best in your opnion? Why?

Which one has the best/varied/non repetitive music?

Which one do you reccommend? Why?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

To be honest I most probably will never play The Guardian Legend without the TGL code that allows you to skip all the non-SHMUP parts of the game.

Why, though? It's a perfectly good top-down action adventure game. It's also interesting to experience the TGL code after you've earned it legitimately by beating the game, because the balancing is very different. You're slightly underpowered for the first 4 or 5 levels in TGL mode, and then slightly underpowered in the last 3 or so levels compared to playing the main game because of the order the powerups are given. Also, your performance affects how many powerups you get so you need to play the levels well to keep up with upgrades or you may well end up underpowered even in the middle of the game. This is in contrast to the main game where it's more about exploration to power yourself up in advance of the shmup zones, and there's only a couple levels where you're forced to do shmupping against what feels like very powerful enemies relative to your strength.

I don't think the balancing in TGL mode is good enough that I'd buy The Guardian Legend just for that mode. Also, the lifebar and the large hitbox makes it feel slightly jank at times, though a far cry from a truly bad shmup with lifebars, inertia, etc. The complete package is fun though.

Cost of cart is irrelevant (I know Gun-Nac is stupid expensive).

Of the ones you listed Gun-Nac I believe is the best. TGL is fun as an adventure game and I love it, but I feel it relies a bit much on lifebar manipulation and tanky enemies to be a truly amazing vertical shmup compared to more traditional arcade style games. Zanac's fun and I haven't played it in ages so can't make a meaningful objective comparison, but I remember being wowed by Gun-Nac and finding it more memorable of the two.

But there are still more vert games to consider if you're okay with Japanese releases:

• Crisis Force is a lot of fun, has great 2 player, is not a super challenging game though.

• OverObj is a relatively recent release that I consider to be fun but visually a bit bland (similar vibe to ChoRenSha, background is always the same, enemies are varied though). Very, very challenging.

• Recca is probably impossible to get legitimately so you'd have to settle for a repro cart, but its challenge and fun are both likely what you're looking for.

[Shatterhand]

I've beaten Gun-Nac on my first try at it. Though I had years of experience with Compile shmups before, so this probably counts.

I also only had access to the NES version of Zanac years after having finished the original and Zanac EX on the MSX a dozen of times, but I still needed a few goes at it to beat it.

They are all pretty easy shmups though. I dunno if you knew about this, but all those 3 games are from Compile and all 3 were designed by Jemini Hirono. Zanac is a port/update of the original MSX game and The Guardian Legend is a pseudo-sequel to the MSX exclusive game Guardic (its original japanese name is Guardic Gaiden).

I love Zanac and if I had to choose one NES shmup to play for the rest of my life, that would be the one.

With that said, Recca would be a very, very close 2nd, and if you haven't checked it out, I would recommend doing it. Even though its shorter, it's a lot more challenging than Zanac and it will last longer if you play for score.

Like BareKnuckleRoo said, TGL isn't really that great on the shmup aspect, I'd say it's pretty average, far of the best offerings by Compile. Gun-Nac is fun but... it's really very, VERY easy. From just those 3, My personal choice would be Zanac.

[To Far Away Times]

Of those three, probably Gun-Nac.

Crisis Force is probably the best shmup on the NES. Over Horizon and Dragon Spirit would round out my NES top three.

[Sengoku Strider]

Of those three, probably Gun-Nac.

Crisis Force is probably the best shmup on the NES. Over Horizon and Dragon Spirit would round out my NES top three.

Dragon Spirit over Life Force?

[SuperDeadite]

+1 for Zanac, though I do prefer the MSX versions.

[Jonpachi]

If price is no object, you might consider just getting Zanac X Zanac on Playstation. You get the Famicom, NES, and a bonus mode with higher difficulty, plus the new Zanac Neo which is pretty damn good as well.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

The idea of not playing the non-shmup parts of guardian legend is hilarious to me. What's next, sigma star saga story stages only?

It's easily my favorite game among the three listed too, pff.

Zanac 2nd place btw so go for that I guess. Other people said as much.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Crisis Force is probably the best shmup on the NES. Over Horizon and Dragon Spirit would round out my NES top three.

Sadly, I think they've discounted stuff like Over Horizon and Life Force because they want a vertical only game. Jackal's pretty fun too, though getting used to having to push the screen around takes some learning.

The idea of not playing the non-shmup parts of guardian legend is hilarious to me. What's next, sigma star saga story stages only?

I do think TGL mode's nice to have as a bonus mode, it's just not particularly well balanced enough I think to stand alone and be worth buying the game for. The shmup levels are best experienced the same way Zelda dungeons are, as part of the main game itself in between exploring the surface so you can prepare for them.

[Shatterhand]

+1 for Zanac, though I do prefer the MSX versions.

Second this. Zanac (and "Zanac 2nd version") are pretty different, and Zanac EX is better than the NES version of Zanac on nearly everything.

If price is no object, you might consider just getting Zanac X Zanac on Playstation. You get the Famicom, NES, and a bonus mode with higher difficulty, plus the new Zanac Neo which is pretty damn good as well.

Also second this.

I think Zanac Neo may be my favourite game on the Playstation 1.

I'll just never forgive Compile for not also adding the MSX versions to the compilation. But this always seems to be the case. MSX has the best Aleste game ever and it was also left out from the Aleste collection, Konami did a bunch of Castlevania compilations the last years and always ignored the MSX game, at least we were lucky to have the original MSX version of Metal Gear as the "official" Metal Gear in the history books and not that horrid NES port.

[Sengoku Strider]

I think comparatively few people are able to appreciate janky MSX scrolling, I wouldn't include myself in that cohort either. The technical performance hurts it a lot.

Aleste Collection was a Sega collaboration tied to the Game Gear Micro hardware, they had no motivation to divert resources toward MSX code that wouldn't run on it. It's why we didn't see Musha or Super Aleste either, when those are the most popular games in the series by far.

[SuperDeadite]

I think comparatively few people are able to appreciate janky MSX scrolling, I wouldn't include myself in that cohort either. The technical performance hurts it a lot.

Aleste Collection was a Sega collaboration tied to the Game Gear Micro hardware, they had no motivation to divert resources toward MSX code that wouldn't run on it. It's why we didn't see Musha or Super Aleste either, when those are the most popular games in the series by far.

Zanac EX (Zanac for MSX2) scrolls smoothly (MSX2 has hardware vertical scrolling, not horizontal.) But even still, MSX1 Zanac is fast enough to feel smooth. It's still really fun imo.

[Shatterhand]

Zanac EX:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbcHs9zDWdg

There's an enhancement patch for it, but the version above is how I played on my MSX years ago. The scroll is smooth because it's an MSX 2 game.

Now, the original Zanac is the one below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrsAT1rIObs

Yeah, the scroll isn't smooth. The MSX is way more limited than the NES as a gaming machine (4 sprites per scanline, 1 bit color for each sprite, no hardware scroll)..... The scroll isn't smooth, but you barely ever interact with the background, and it's not a slow scroll like in Gradius so, honestly, it doesn't affect the gameplay.... but not only this, this game was like leagues above any other shmup the MSX 1 had before.... and to be quite honest, also after. Here in Brazil no one knew what a "Nintendo" was when we got this game, everyone who saw this game was blew away by it. Considering how limited the hardware is, this game is a small miracle.

Of course I'll have some affective memories with MSX games since I grew up with one, but there's a lot of "Oh the MSX can't scroll therefore the games are unplayable" bullshit spread on the internet. Compile (and Konami too) were brilliant to design games around the limitations of the machine, and while the background scroll is made tile by tile, you won't be looking too much at the background of this game, and everything else moves really smoothly. Gameplay wise, I always thought the flickering hurts the gameplay more than the scrolling, but even that it's at a pretty low rate, even more when you consider how much shit is flying on screen.

(MSX2 has hardware vertical scrolling, not horizontal.)

The MSX2 *does* have multi-directional scroll... sort of. You can't scroll the tiles horizontally, but you can move the whole display, which is way larger than the screen on both directions. That's how you get Space Manbow, Psycho World or Pennant Race 2 to scroll smoothly on an MSX2.

[SuperDeadite]

MSX games have tons of enhancement patches these days. Hardware ain't cheap but some crazy stuff.

For Zanac EX, I use the OPLL + Darky patch now. Which can also be combined with MIDI-PAC.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For the price of an FC/NES Everdrive flashcart + all three above OP's listed NES stg titles, it's the cheapest way to play 'em properly nowadays (unless you want to enjoy playing 'em as genuine but expensive NES carts as desired/intended).

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One day, I was browsing the used NES games listed for sale at my local "The Video Park" movie rental joint, I spotted a "used" copy of Ascii's Gun-Nac for a mere $9.99 usd back in 1993. Bought it and upon opening it at home, it turns out that it was a "brand new & unopened" copy of Gun-Nac, indeed. Best $9.99 + tax I spent that day many moons ago -- I was stoked that day having bought a new copy and was not expecting that "special surprise" at all. I'd recommend picking up a copy of NES Gun-Nac to play at your leisure. Or get a boxed repro cart of NES Gun-Nac would certainly be cheaper & easier on the ol' wallet (or purse) nowadays.
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PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[BareKnuckleRoo]

it's the cheapest way to play 'em properly nowadays (unless you want to enjoy playing 'em as genuine but expensive NES carts as desired/intended).

The collector market is nuts and has ironically killed off the actual enjoyment of buying old / "retro" video games for me to use.

Also, system hardware getting old kinda sucks. My N64 died on me and seeing how little support there is for repairs ("buy a new one and hope it doesn't die on you") it's made me appreciate emulation that much more.

One day, I was browsing the used NES games listed for sale at my local "The Video Park" movie rental joint, I spotted a "used" copy of Ascii's Gun-Nac for a mere $9.99 usd back in 1993.

A savvy time traveler could make a killing nowadays!

[Sengoku Strider]

The collector market is nuts and has ironically killed off the actual enjoyment of buying old / "retro" video games for me to use.

If it makes you feel any better, the value of my collection on Pricecharting seems to have been ticking down on a daily basis for a while now. The fun is coming back!

Also, system hardware getting old kinda sucks. My N64 died on me and seeing how little support there is for repairs ("buy a new one and hope it doesn't die on you") it's made me appreciate emulation that much more.

That's got to be part of it. All my retro systems are wobbly or non-functional, and repairs are seemingly as expensive as just buying another one. I need to learn how to do that stuff for myself.

[Austin]

I think all three are fine, but if I had to pick just one I'd probably aim for Gun Nac. It's the most technically polished (and impressive) of the bunch. And doesn't it have difficulty settings? That solves the "it's too easy" issue.

Guardian Legend is cool and has some pretty intense late-game bosses. As a STG on its own it's the weakest of the bunch. I feel it's about the full experience. If you're not getting that, then you might as well be playing the other two options.

Zanac is a weird one for me. I like it, but it seems fairly early in the NES's Western lifespan and so it feels bland/unpolished to me. I'd rather play Aleste on the SMS which seems a lot more solid all around. Also, +1 to the Zanac X Zanac pack on PS1. Sorta makes the NES version redundant, and Zanac NEO is pretty cool. I had a good time revisiting that one last weekend.

Re: Dragon Spirit - Really fun game on NES, definitely recommended, but it's waaaaaay to easy for seasoned players. Hell, it was easy for us as seven year olds when it was new, ha. I typically recommend it to players of 8/16-bit games that are totally new to the genre.

[To Far Away Times]

Of those three, probably Gun-Nac.

Crisis Force is probably the best shmup on the NES. Over Horizon and Dragon Spirit would round out my NES top three.

Dragon Spirit over Life Force?

You're right, if I'm including an arcade port it probably should be Life Force. Dragon Spirit NES was an improvement over the arcade Dragon Spirit, imo. Both the arcade and NES versions of Life Force are pretty great, though I have a slight preference for the arcade version. When I like the arcade version more than the console version I tend to not really consider the console ports. Might be a little unfair since Life Force NES has a few new levels and diverges from the arcade version quite a bit.

[Sengoku Strider]

Zanac is a weird one for me. I like it, but it seems fairly early in the NES's Western lifespan and so it feels bland/unpolished to me. I'd rather play Aleste on the SMS which seems a lot more solid all around.

Zanac was originally a Famicom Disk System game in Japan, and is actually pretty advanced compared to most of the system's shooter library. I don't know how many games on the platform have a rank system as involved as Zanac's. Playing the original Aleste on Aleste Collection has been kinda disappointing TBH, the meta is to just stick with the default weapon (which destroys enemy shots and unlike every other secondary weapon never runs out) and cruise through the whole game in the middle of the screen.

It also just floods you with the same enemy patterns over & over throughout the whole game which makes things feel like a grind, as the levels are quite long without much happening in the backgrounds. Overall it does looks and sound (in FM at least) great for the hardware, but the experience did away with any thoughts of it knocking off R-Type as an elite SMS shooter. Though I haven't played Zanac in forever, so I don't know how well it holds up in comparison.

You're right, if I'm including an arcade port it probably should be Life Force. Dragon Spirit NES was an improvement over the arcade Dragon Spirit, imo. Both the arcade and NES versions of Life Force are pretty great, though I have a slight preference for the arcade version. When I like the arcade version more than the console version I tend to not really consider the console ports. Might be a little unfair since Life Force NES has a few new levels and diverges from the arcade version quite a bit.

My only experience with it was renting it back in the day and being thoroughly underwhelmed with the visuals. I have the PC Engine version, the music is fantastic but the game itself looks and feels kinda rough to me, the hit boxes are not tight at all and as as a result I've never managed to stay motivated long enough to plough through the whole thing. But I know its well liked by a lot of people, so maybe that's just me.

I know you specified NES so I didn't mention Gradius II, but that seems like another name worth tossing into the ring. I've never played the Famicom version, but I know it's one of the more technically impressive chip enhanced titles on the system and based on my experience with the PC Engine version I might personally put that above Life Force.

[To Far Away Times]

Gradius II on the famicom has the same “director’s cut” energy as Life Force NES and revised with console demands in mind, including a much improved shield. It’s a very cool version of the game.

[Lander]

All three are fine choices, but Zanac. Without question. I built my shmupsfarm identity around it for a reason, after all

For one, it's extremely systemic; the total opposite of one-viable-route memorizers. There are many tractable ways to play, a significant amount of which involve learning the mechanical nuances and breaking them in some creative fashion or other. And since there's only one playable ship (mechanically speaking at least,) you can shift between approaches mid-run depending on how things are going, which adds a nice element of strategy.

And when you really start to dig in, it's full of interesting secrets and tricks; secret Randar 1UPs, even secret-er Randar fire rate increases, a hidden shot power level, midboss-annihilating sidekick character, warps (that aren't always beneficial!), ways to manipulate the item crate RNG to power up or recover quicker, the ability to spawn a dense one-off screen of 1UPs if you route your run specifically around a certain weapon... All manner of cool design facets to root out!

It's also interesting for being so rank-centric. Of the rank-notorious games I've played, Zanac is the one where the consequences for your actions feel the most evident. The stages are deterministic, but the moment-to-moment shmup combat and enemy compositions vary massively depending on how you choose to approach the game, and how badly you piss off the AI. There's a distinct push-pull to it, where many other games tend to instead be a gradual creep that only becomes really noticeable after you eat an unexpected shot and start chaindeathing.

I'll second the recommendation of Zanac X Zanac too - Neo is a great game in its own right and inherits various nice qualities from the original, as well as adding some pleasant QoL like independent tracking of weapon levels.
Though I don't think it necessarily eclipses the original; that FDS / NES release will always be my favourite

[Shatterhand]

Gradius II on the famicom has the same “director’s cut” energy as Life Force NES and revised with console demands in mind, including a much improved shield. It’s a very cool version of the game.

Have you played Salamander on the MSX? Konami went nuts with the "Director's cut" energy there, way beyond than Life Force on NES. Levels are completely re-designed, there are cut-scenes, you can change the order of certain levels, theres a completely bonkers requirement to unlock last level and see the real ending, extra secret weapons... it's an awesome game.

Yeah, it's behind a "The background scroll is jerky" hardware. But today there are enhancement patches that make the game smooth and with the 2 SCC chip patch you even get voices.

I recommend it a lot.

[To Far Away Times]

Gradius II on the famicom has the same “director’s cut” energy as Life Force NES and revised with console demands in mind, including a much improved shield. It’s a very cool version of the game.

Have you played Salamander on the MSX? Konami went nuts with the "Director's cut" energy there, way beyond than Life Force on NES. Levels are completely re-designed, there are cut-scenes, you can change the order of certain levels, theres a completely bonkers requirement to unlock last level and see the real ending, extra secret weapons... it's an awesome game.

Yeah, it's behind a "The background scroll is jerky" hardware. But today there are enhancement patches that make the game smooth and with the 2 SCC chip patch you even get voices.

I recommend it a lot.

I’ve heard very good things about this version but I haven’t had a chance to play it. It’s on the “to do” list.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

On the USA version of NES Gun-Nac that was released stateside by developer/publisher Ascii USA (American subsidiary of Ascii of Japan) back in 1991, there are a grand total of nine stages (assuming if you start at "Area 0" as stage 1, hence "Area 8" would be regarded as the ninth stage). If you defeat the LTB (Last True Boss) on Area 8, you'll earn a whopping 1,000,000 points added to your overall score -- how cool is that?

Average scores would be around 4,826,270 points and up for a complete playthrough serious session of NES Gun-Nac without continuing. If you have any extra lives once Area 8 is completed, the CPU will award an extra 5 lives to your existing lives in reserve (it would've been nice to have those extra remaining unused lives converted into "bonus points" to add to your overall score once all nine Areas are cleared though -- perhaps this could be added in a "Director's Cut version of Gun-Nac" for completeness down the road).

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Hidden NES Gun-Nac "Stage Select" Easter Egg:

Select "Config. Sys" and select "Sound Test - 05" -- then select "Area - 1," change the initial starting Area from "0 through 8" by pressing Left & Right on the NES gamepad and finally press Start to start on your desired chosen "Area" to begin a gaming session.
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Sure, there are some differences between the original Famicom version of Gun-Nac and it's American counterpart release of the same name -- they're both worth owning/playing indeed in your FC/NES gaming stash alrighty.

Bonus points for playing Gun-Nac "on the go" with a Columbus Circle produced "Famicom Pocket" handheld setup -- it's awesome to pick it up and boot it up at a moment's notice for some console STG gaming at it's best.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[BrianC]

There's a fan translation of the JP Gun Nac that translates the cutscenes. The JP plot is more interesting and has a Shrine Maiden as the pilot. Odd thing is the removed parts in the US version were blocked with dialog removed rather than removed entirely.

[scrilla4rella]

Gun-Nac is so good. most Compile shooters are. Careful, one may feel compelled to go after all of them.

I hope M2 is able to release another Aleste collection disc one of these days. MUSHA , Spriggan, and Space Megaforce are some of the best (chill?) console shmups out there. If you know, you know, and it seems clear OP knows
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While my story isn't PC Engine Fan X-level or anything, I distinctly remember walking back from the mailbox with my cartridge only copy of MUSHA circa 1999-2000. An early EBAY purchase. Probably paid 20 bucks or something for it. Playing it was disorienting at first, coming mainly from 32-bit era shooters, but once it clicked it really sent me on a journey. Still holds up today IMO

[Jonpachi]

^^^ Around 2000 I got fed up with not finding a good copy of MUSHA in the wild, and bit the bullet on a $50 complete copy on EBay. My friend gave me so much shit for spending that much on an old Genesis game.

To this day, it’s one of my grails.

[scrilla4rella]

^^^ Around 2000 I got fed up with not finding a good copy of MUSHA in the wild, and bit the bullet on a $50 complete copy on EBay. My friend gave me so much shit for spending that much on an old Genesis game.

Nice! we were probably browsing those listings at around the same time. In retrospect I really should have just went for, what we would now call, a CIB copy. I remember thinking 50ish was too rich for my blood

[MintyTheCat]

I had such fun playing Gun-Nac. I remember first playing it around 2000 or so - you folks remember Shmups' Xenofiles - they were a treasure trove of information on Shmups back then.

It has this quirkiness that you only really find from the Japanese

I love it.

Zanac was a laugh, I never bothered much with Guardian Legend, not sure why. Perhaps just too many other Shmups to play and it didn't gain the focus.