Is it pos to get cave boxes on there own

Post by **system11** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:32 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:I still don't understand all the bickering. I've never seen so many people getting bent out of shape over what other people (most of whom they've never seen) spend their money on.

It's because when one nutjob offers a high price for a board, sellers start to expect it, collecters start to expect to pay it, people start to buy them cheap to make a profit on, and then you find Guwange (a $90 game in the past) selling for $350 bare. It's not helped by people purposefully offering thousands of dollars for a game just because it comes with art and a box, or by people saying 'OMFG YOU LET IT GO THAT CHEAP!?' when a Feveron sells for $250.

The new breed of collectors, as I shall refer to them from now on, have jacked up the prices insanely. You /could/ say it's supply and demand, but no - it's the same thing that drove up prices of Neo Geo games, a perverse need to be seen with the most expensive collection of one specific thing - and Cave games have been latched onto.

And another part of this can be attributed to a feeling of "hey, the hobby was fine till you guys came and f**ked it up".

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:58 pm

Sorry man, one person cannot jack the price up of something with even a small print run of a few thousand. It is supply and demand, either way you cut it. Without any numbers to back me up, I'm going to say there are far more PCB collectors now than there were at the time that such games were going so cheap...especially in North America, where arcades have gone tits up. I certainly didn't buy PCBs at that time.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:04 am

GunSpike wrote:
Twiddle wrote:
GunSpike wrote:And you are incorrect Twiddle. I play my games a lot (while trying to have a life at the same time ).
That's not what a collector does.
What? Play their games, or try to have a life? (Sorry, couldn't resist that)

Both. A collector is convinced that taking off the seal, let alone playing the game, will decrease its value sharply. The not having a life part is simply a very common trait among such collectors.

ResOGlas · Post by **ResOGlas** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:06 am

bloodflowers wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:I still don't understand all the bickering. I've never seen so many people getting bent out of shape over what other people (most of whom they've never seen) spend their money on.
It's because when one nutjob offers a high price for a board, sellers start to expect it, collecters start to expect to pay it, people start to buy them cheap to make a profit on, and then you find Guwange (a $90 game in the past) selling for $350 bare. It's not helped by people purposefully offering thousands of dollars for a game just because it comes with art and a box, or by people saying 'OMFG YOU LET IT GO THAT CHEAP!?' when a Feveron sells for $250.

The new breed of collectors, as I shall refer to them from now on, have jacked up the prices insanely. You /could/ say it's supply and demand, but no - it's the same thing that drove up prices of Neo Geo games, a perverse need to be seen with the most expensive collection of one specific thing - and Cave games have been latched onto.

And another part of this can be attributed to a feeling of "hey, the hobby was fine till you guys came and f**ked it up".

Man, are you really a mod here? Many Cave PCBs are rare, many of you guys can't accept that the demand came late once everybody realized how awesome they were. Of course some of these full kit prices are absolutely insane, but the kit prices don't reflect the PCB prices one bit. Cave became mainstream, live with it.

ResOGlas · Post by **ResOGlas** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:10 am

Twiddle wrote: Both. A collector is convinced that taking off the seal, let alone playing the game, will decrease its value sharply. The not having a life part is simply a very common trait among such collectors.

That's insane, I've honestly never heard of ANYONE buying an arcade board to not play it if it wasn't for immediate resale. I almost don't want to believe that.

I'm a gamer. I have a collection of games. I try my best to take good care of them, and I'd rather buy a PCB that still has an original marquee. I'd say I was a collector. When you say Collector's that don't play their games, do you just mean Zak? He may be filthy rich, but I always assumed he played his boards.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:12 am

It happens more often than it should.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:15 am

The only time it would happen is if it was bought well after the price had dropped...by that time, if you're buying a new kit, it should not be for market speculation. If you're buying any type of games to make money in the future, you're a complete dipshit. A low-interest CD will give you at leat 3 to 5%. Games on the whole, will give you a negative.

ResOGlas · Post by **ResOGlas** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:17 am

I guess the bottom line is that you don't have ANY more fun playing your games knowing that there is a cardboard box stacked in your closet or not. Bought a complete kit? Bought a loose PCB? No difference gameplay wise. Like I said, If you really want the original artwork it's cool. But when Guwange goes for $350 today, it sounds crazy that people will pay $1000+ for a kit. I'm done ranting now, life is crazy and I'm done caring.

ResOGlas · Post by **ResOGlas** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:18 am

GaijinPunch wrote:The only time it would happen is if it was bought well after the price had dropped...by that time, if you're buying a new kit, it should not be for market speculation. If you're buying any type of games to make money in the future, you're a complete dipshit. A low-interest CD will give you at leat 3 to 5%. Games on the whole, will give you a negative.

Everything I've ever bought aside from Street Fighter 3: 3rd strike and cave PCBs dropped in value.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:20 am

GaijinPunch wrote:I still don't understand all the bickering. I've never seen so many people getting bent out of shape over what other people (most of whom they've never seen) spend their money on.

It is the negative effects of this behaviour that ruins things for everyone else though GP.

When it makes it impossible for normal players to pick up these games. And this business about the boxes just says how ridiculous things have become.

Post by **system11** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:27 am

ResOGlas wrote:Man, are you really a mod here? Many Cave PCBs are rare

Actually, they are not rare at all, except for things like DOJ Black Label. What they are, is popular. What they are, is collected. What they are, is hoarded as a status symbol. If you knew even half as much about the arcade scene as you thought, you wouldn't be giving them labels they don't warrant.

You want to know what rare is? Rare is when you can't offer a price and have something appear. Rare is when you search for three years before you find something, rare is not when you can find them on Yahoo JP every other week. We're talking old obscure games few people even saw back in the day. We're talking strange unknown ROM revisions, prototypes, and stuff people threw away because they thought it was worthless or too much trouble to keep, to the point where they don't exist anymore. Full Cave kits are somewhat rare (of the older games at least). Back then nobody really gave a damn about the artwork and boxes, it was simply never considered (the vast majority filtering through from arcade operators who used to throw that stuff straight in the bin) - when they did show up, it was a 'nice to have'.

ResOGlas wrote:Cave became mainstream, live with it.

You also need to work on your definition of mainstream.

oxtsu · Post by **oxtsu** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:36 am

GaijinPunch wrote:Without any numbers to back me up, I'm going to say there are far more PCB collectors now than there were at the time that such games were going so cheap...especially in North America, where arcades have gone tits up. I certainly didn't buy PCBs at that time.

Hmm..I haven't noticed any major surge in PCB buyers really. It seems only a handful doing the damage, starting around two years ago. Let's call it the NeoGeo-->CAVE 'Trail of Tears'. Anyway, I don't hate them. Most of us collect games in some shape or form. My repugnance threshold is crossed however by a few who value an original box as high or higher than the game itself. And it would be nice if more people would delve deeper into shooting, not just here for the 'hardcore' factor, pretty graphics and packaging. I can show some tolerance though.

umi · Post by **umi** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:52 am

Anyone who *doesn't* care about the frills wouldn't buy a full kit anyway, would they? They'd buy bare, to save their cheap ass money. So really, the argument is irrelevant. And if they think full kits should be anyway *near* the price of a bare pcb, well... that's fuckin' crazy. Nomatter how you look at it, full kits are generally rare (not necessarily ultra-rare), and way more coveted. It comes down to this: If you're not a collector, don't argue against something you can't and will never identify with.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:10 am

Let's call it the NeoGeo-->CAVE 'Trail of Tears'.

That's still a small fraction of all the people buying Cave games up. I think it's fair to say that the main factor has been that Cave is the only company putting out really high quality shooter one after the other. Such a feat would obviously create a buzz for their back catalogue...especially the games that haven't ported.

Regardless of what the price was then, there's an established price now. As everyone knows, something is worth what someone will pay for it. Don't like the price? Don't pay for it. Cave games aren't the first games to suffer from price inflation. Sapphrie and RS both costed 6800 yen at some point... maybe even cheaper.

BBH · Post by **BBH** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:11 am

BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER BUTTER

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:21 am

Gentlemen I think this thread has been won by BBH

oxtsu · Post by **oxtsu** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:21 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
Let's call it the NeoGeo-->CAVE 'Trail of Tears'.
That's still a small fraction of all the people buying Cave games up.

I disagree. At the very least I would think it accounts for half.

The rest of your comments there I can basically agree with.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:50 am

BBH wrote:BUTTER

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:52 am

Supply and demand is the key here.. But there is another problem that nobody in this scenario or any related scenario has picked up on.

I find it absolutely incredible that there is NO after sales support for these products. You cannot get OFFICIAL support for a broken PCB and you CANNOT get replacement items for lost parts, artwork and boxes.

This is the most ridiculous scenario i've ever heard of.

The reason people pay $100 for a stupid box is because of the above. It is always the manufacturers fault that prices get high.

If I made a product that cost $2000, no matter if it were for the arcade industry or a personal collector, I would make sure of after sales support and I would have a fan club webpage for the personal collectors and games players that pay the very high premiums for the privelege. Think about it people, $2000 for a game!

I'm sure if asked, Cave would make some extra boxes that were origonal for their fanbase that they KNOW exists.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:03 am

I disagree. At the very least I would think it accounts for half.

Well, I've only heard this on the western side of things (US only?). Cave Fever is also rampant in Japan. There quite a few people that will buy the PCBs at full list, despite the fact they have a plethora of arcades at their fingertips... often walking distance from home.

Then again I don't pretend to keep up w/ any specific groups in Japan either, so I would say it's possible the NG people there are guilty as well, but it would be speculation.

I'm sure if asked, Cave would make some extra boxes that were origonal for their fanbase that they KNOW exists.

Welcome to the wonderful world of business in Japan. Where everything you learned in the west means absolutely fuck all. The fact that they don't replace parts isn't very surprising. Afterall, this is a country in which clothing returns take an act of God (and usually don't happen). On that note, some places don't let you even try some articles of clothing on.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:22 am

Then Cave need a western division. Either in the USA or Europe.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:34 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:Then Cave need a western division. Either in the USA or Europe.

There needs to be more than 18 arcades in the entire west for that to happen.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:11 am

umi wrote: It comes down to this: If you're not a collector, don't argue against something you can't and will never identify with.

So now you are saying we aren't collectors unless we have the box? LOL

GunSpike · Post by **GunSpike** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:39 am

GaijinPunch wrote:Welcome to the wonderful world of business in Japan. Where everything you learned in the west means absolutely fuck all. The fact that they don't replace parts isn't very surprising. Afterall, this is a country in which clothing returns take an act of God (and usually don't happen). On that note, some places don't let you even try some articles of clothing on.

Heh, got that right.

Post by **system11** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:55 am

BBH wrote:BUTTER

Ok.

We've had threads that end in heated arguments or petty discussion before, but this kind of stupidity above is a new turn for the worse.

Please don't do it again. And we could do without jpgs being posted into every thread too. Fucking grow up the lot of you. I know you can argue without turning into gamefaqs, I've seen it.

oxtsu · Post by **oxtsu** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:50 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:I find it absolutely incredible that there is NO after sales support for these products. You cannot get OFFICIAL support for a broken PCB and you CANNOT get replacement items for lost parts, artwork and boxes.

There is after sales service from the developer and sales/publishing arms both: warranty, repairs, certain parts. Some companies are better at this than others.

A recent example: AlfaSystem left a glitch in the Internet Ranking code system in Shikigami III, rendering the feature useless. This wasn't discovered until the game had already been sold,released and in the arcade for a short time. They apologized and replaced all the units with the fixed version free of charge.

As it is now, the operators and distributors in general don't see extra value in the original boxes. They throw them away or use them for other things, etc. And I think it's accurate to say that the majority of hobbyists don't care much about them either.

umi · Post by **umi** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:50 pm

bloodflowers wrote:
BBH wrote:BUTTER
Ok.

We've had threads that end in heated arguments or petty discussion before, but this kind of stupidity above is a new turn for the worse.

Please don't do it again. And we could do without jpgs being posted into every thread too. Fucking grow up the lot of you. I know you can argue without turning into gamefaqs, I've seen it.

That was like, the harmlessest post in the whole thread. What's wrong with butter? :/

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:55 pm

Off Topic:
Depends on how badly you treat the cow prior to getting the milk. Perhaps it was a statement promoting free range cows? ^_-

On Topic:
Cave Fever: It's like "cabin fever", only more expensive, more 'hardcore', and with a more maniacal facial expression while you're doing it.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:10 pm

Umi- do you say 'harmlessest' in your Australian dialect, or were you merely using a non-standard form for affect? The standard superlative of that lexeme is 'most harmless', but I'm always interested in any variant dialect forms. Superlatives and comparatives in English often have two (or more) equally acceptable forms in non-standard dialects (such as "more happy" and "happier"). Sorry, just a side effect of being a linguist!

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:13 pm

bloodflowers wrote:I know you can argue without turning into gamefaqs, I've seen it.

wouldnt know it to look at this thread tho..

i was gonna post something but then i thought... "why the fuck should I!?!"