CYGNI: AGB | Steam, PS5 and Xbox Series 2023

[Eyvah_Ehyeh]

For me it was really intuitive to start playing recklessly, but then again my favorite shmup is Parsec 47, and to be fair I played that game for quite some time before SOMEONE BETTER THAN ME posted a video of him playing upon which I realized the true extent to how recklessly one could go about playing the game. Well okay, here we are, ten years later, and I still have not gotten such a high score as he did during 10 waves (over 3 millions), not even ONCE, but hey, it still opened my eyes to how the game COULD be played, so I for sure expect people not to get Cygni, sadly, because I would love for the game to be played so that updates are deemed justified. Sadly perhaps the game missed its golden window. Man, with some better tutorials this could have gone differently, guys! Oh well, nothing to do but make the best of it.

[AntiramDSR]

I totally overlooked this until now:

I'm almost 48 and absolutely love it. For me it feels like non-stop pressure from start to finish and after a bit of practice I've managed to reach 10th on lb's.

It's 100% not going to be everyone's cup of tea for sure but I think a few old shmupers like me will be very happy to have a different type of shmup to play. I really enjpy all genres of games though, big and small, so perhaps that helps me adapt to something new. Thoroughly enjoyed figuring out the more complex systems at play here.

... i'm next to 50.

You keep reffering to Cygni as Euro Shmup. Maybe we should revisit the term and create a new one, what if one has a bit of both? What terminology would be used then?

Keelworks, you made the first "Gen X Shmup"!

and we old people love to train our reflexes with it.

[ExitPlanetDust]

X-shmup

I don’t think he’s gen x but I think shmuptopia would like this. He’s generally into unconventional shooters.
I would also be curious to know what someone like SHMUP Junkie thinks of it.

[Shatterhand]

I'm really trying to no get much into this thread for reasons.

But for real, what features described below isn't in Cygni?

https://shmups.wiki/library/Euroshmups

This is an euroshmup. You may enjoy it, there's no problem with it. A lot of people love Raptor, Tyriam, Jets 'n' Guns, those games received a lot of love through the years on these forums here. I enjoyed the hell out of Tyrian back in the day. I mean, damn, people still show a lot of love for Xenon 2 and Project-X is getting a fan sequel which received blessing from the original devs.

But that's exactly what Cygni is. There's no need for a new term.

[Aceskies]

Cygni:

Ship physics / Ship momentum (inertia)
Player shields / Health bars
Unavoidable obstacles or enemies (which are meant to be absorbed with health bars or shields)
No bullet patterns / Only simple aimed bullets
Limited weapon ammo, which usually also introduces shops and money management into the game
Lack of complex enemy ship AI such as ships that curve around the screen
Extremely high enemy HP
Very slow player bullets
A large number of levels often with little variation between them
No scoring systems

[ExitPlanetDust]

I have a question, concerning the "damage modifiers" that someone wrote about in this thread, which I didn't know about.

Slot 6 - 10% ^
Slot 5 - 8% ^
Slot 4 - 6% ^
Slot 3 - 4 % ^
Slot 2 - 2% ^
Slot 1 - 0%

Does the game ever tell you about this? Also how does it work, exactly? Do you get more damage in ALL your six weapon configurations if you have a full shot power, or just the one in sixth position? Is the damage only added to the guns, or also the drones, and missiles, and beam and ray-gun or whatever it's called?

Edit: Never mind, it appears that the power levels are for all loadouts

[Shatterhand]

Cygni:

Ship physics / Ship momentum (inertia)
Player shields / Health bars
Unavoidable obstacles or enemies (which are meant to be absorbed with health bars or shields)
No bullet patterns / Only simple aimed bullets
Limited weapon ammo, which usually also introduces shops and money management into the game
Lack of complex enemy ship AI such as ships that curve around the screen
Extremely high enemy HP
Very slow player bullets
A large number of levels often with little variation between them
No scoring systems

A large number of levels was replaced by large levels with little variation between them. The "shop" thing is in the game in a different format (I couldn't help but rememeber Xenon 2 the first time I opened the "customize your ship" screen), I faced more enemies with high HP than I would like with bosses repeating their same patterns over and over, and I think I could still make a case for the "No Bullet Patterns" when the game is just throwing random stuff with absolutely no sense of flow at you and telling you "Nah, just use your shield".

I don't want to gatekeep people and tell what they are supposed to enjoy or not. Please, just have fun with whatever. But Cygni is exactly what the term "Euroshmup" was coined for, for better or worse. Playing it really threw me back to the days when I got Project-X for the Amiga.

[Eyvah_Ehyeh]

Cygni:

Ship physics / Ship momentum (inertia)
Player shields / Health bars
Unavoidable obstacles or enemies (which are meant to be absorbed with health bars or shields)
No bullet patterns / Only simple aimed bullets
Limited weapon ammo, which usually also introduces shops and money management into the game
Lack of complex enemy ship AI such as ships that curve around the screen
Extremely high enemy HP
Very slow player bullets
A large number of levels often with little variation between them
No scoring systems

The inertia isn't that noticeable, I would say.

I'd say that the majority of patterns are aimed, for sure. And although there's no shopping and limit on ammo, there's a limit on kinds of ammo, so I still think it's half a point there. When it comes to AI I think it's even better than in most shmups. Enemies don't have high HP, but bosses have got TOO DAMN MUCH, so another half pointer. And yeah there's not a large number of levels, but that's inicidental to the fact that there is little variation between them. Scoring system I'm not sure about, since I just try to survive. I'm assuming you get more points for surviving a lot, and maybe collecting "credits", rather than using them up as missiles as I do? Not sure, though.

Verdict: 5.5/10 Euro Bullets. My favorite euro shmup, for sure. But still much untapped potential in the genre!

[AntiramDSR]

my post was meant as a joke not to bring up the "euro or not"-discussion again.

but now that it's here... again...

how i see it:

Yes, very Euro on Paper, but all of them euroshmup-red-flags well put together into the intended gameplay once you got the hang of it. feels very Housemarque-y, which is a good thing.

[AntiramDSR]

Scoring system I'm not sure about, since I just try to survive. I'm assuming you get more points for surviving a lot, and maybe collecting "credits", rather than using them up as missiles as I do? Not sure, though.

Verdict: 5.5/10 Euro Bullets. My favorite euro shmup, for sure. But still much untapped potential in the genre!

yes, they only count to your pocket if your shield energy is fully loaded while collecting them. so feeding into weapon energy comes for a price. As for deeper Scoring system... they are about to rework the Arcade Mode and get into scoring mechanics again since they just run out of time during development. Also they are all open ears to ideas and feedback in general, very communicative on their Discord.

[Eyvah_Ehyeh]

my post was meant as a joke not to bring up the "euro or not"-discussion again.

but now that it's here... again...

how i see it:

Yes, very Euro on Paper, but all of them euroshmup-red-flags well put together into the intended gameplay once you got the hang of it. feels very Housemarque-y, which is a good thing.

Yes, that's not a bad way of putting it, Housemarque-y! Although I think their games right now have more involved, expanded upon, and tight gameplay and scoring system, in for example Resogun and Nex Machina. Right now Cygni is more barebones, and less "intentionally" designed.

[Shatterhand]

Cygni:

Ship physics / Ship momentum (inertia)
Player shields / Health bars
Unavoidable obstacles or enemies (which are meant to be absorbed with health bars or shields)
No bullet patterns / Only simple aimed bullets
Limited weapon ammo, which usually also introduces shops and money management into the game
Lack of complex enemy ship AI such as ships that curve around the screen
Extremely high enemy HP
Very slow player bullets
A large number of levels often with little variation between them
No scoring systems

The inertia isn't that noticeable, I would say.

I'd say that the majority of patterns are aimed, for sure. And although there's no shopping and limit on ammo, there's a limit on kinds of ammo, so I still think it's half a point there. When it comes to AI I think it's even better than in most shmups. Enemies don't have high HP, but bosses have got TOO DAMN MUCH, so another half pointer. And yeah there's not a large number of levels, but that's inicidental to the fact that there is little variation between them. Scoring system I'm not sure about, since I just try to survive. I'm assuming you get more points for surviving a lot, and maybe collecting "credits", rather than using them up as missiles as I do? Not sure, though.

Verdict: 5.5/10 Euro Bullets. My favorite euro shmup, for sure. But still much untapped potential in the genre!

The inertia is noticeable when you start moving, but when you stop, the ship immediately stops. It still feels too imprecise and makes micro dodging awful (Even more considering the batshit insane ship speed), but it's better than your ship sliding all over the place.

I still don't know why shmup devs insists on adding any kind of inertia in a genre where you need precise controls and this is like rule #1 on "What to NOT DO when making a shmup" but... oh well.

[AntiramDSR]

Cygni:

Ship physics / Ship momentum (inertia)
Player shields / Health bars
Unavoidable obstacles or enemies (which are meant to be absorbed with health bars or shields)
No bullet patterns / Only simple aimed bullets
Limited weapon ammo, which usually also introduces shops and money management into the game
Lack of complex enemy ship AI such as ships that curve around the screen
Extremely high enemy HP
Very slow player bullets
A large number of levels often with little variation between them
No scoring systems

The inertia isn't that noticeable, I would say.

I'd say that the majority of patterns are aimed, for sure. And although there's no shopping and limit on ammo, there's a limit on kinds of ammo, so I still think it's half a point there. When it comes to AI I think it's even better than in most shmups. Enemies don't have high HP, but bosses have got TOO DAMN MUCH, so another half pointer. And yeah there's not a large number of levels, but that's inicidental to the fact that there is little variation between them. Scoring system I'm not sure about, since I just try to survive. I'm assuming you get more points for surviving a lot, and maybe collecting "credits", rather than using them up as missiles as I do? Not sure, though.

Verdict: 5.5/10 Euro Bullets. My favorite euro shmup, for sure. But still much untapped potential in the genre!

The inertia is noticeable when you start moving, but when you stop, the ship immediately stops. It still feels too imprecise and makes micro dodging awful (Even more considering the batshit insane ship speed), but it's better than your ship sliding all over the place.

I still don't know why shmup devs insists on adding any kind of inertia in a genre where you need precise controls and this is like rule #1 on "What to NOT DO when making a shmup" but... oh well.

well... the inertia is there if you insist on using digital controls for ship-movement and then, yes... it becomes a problem. this is one of those rare occasions in a shmup where i prefer analog-controls. and with them i prefer slightly initial inertia for micrododging also. but then: it's no microdogde-heavy game at all.

this game is build around dualsticks. really no problem here at all. also i don't see how this game would be playable with "normal" ship-speed.

we can keep detailing the usual "not to do in a shmup"-things again and again... in the end it's perfectly playable as it is now... IF one want to

edit: also the so called "Euroshmup-lifebar/shield" is in fact THE fundamental part of it's gameplay-mechanic.

[soupbones]

One thing that bugs me about this game is the decision to have your shields fill up automatically with energy pickups ONLY if you are maxed out on the weapon side.

Like... why?

It's such a strange choice - just make it fill up shields by default, then when that is full, weapons.

As much as I love this game (yeah, I'm 51), it's just not fun for me with the 1-life in Normal difficulty. Easy is too easy - I feel like 3 lives in Normal would have been perfect.

[-Fish-]

The inertia isn't that noticeable, I would say.

I'd say that the majority of patterns are aimed, for sure. And although there's no shopping and limit on ammo, there's a limit on kinds of ammo, so I still think it's half a point there. When it comes to AI I think it's even better than in most shmups. Enemies don't have high HP, but bosses have got TOO DAMN MUCH, so another half pointer. And yeah there's not a large number of levels, but that's inicidental to the fact that there is little variation between them. Scoring system I'm not sure about, since I just try to survive. I'm assuming you get more points for surviving a lot, and maybe collecting "credits", rather than using them up as missiles as I do? Not sure, though.

Verdict: 5.5/10 Euro Bullets. My favorite euro shmup, for sure. But still much untapped potential in the genre!

The inertia is noticeable when you start moving, but when you stop, the ship immediately stops. It still feels too imprecise and makes micro dodging awful (Even more considering the batshit insane ship speed), but it's better than your ship sliding all over the place.

I still don't know why shmup devs insists on adding any kind of inertia in a genre where you need precise controls and this is like rule #1 on "What to NOT DO when making a shmup" but... oh well.

well... the inertia is there if you insist on using digital controls for ship-movement and then, yes... it becomes a problem. this is one of those rare occasions in a shmup where i prefer analog-controls. and with them i prefer slightly initial inertia for micrododging also. but then: it's no microdogde-heavy game at all.

this game is build around dualsticks. really no problem here at all. also i don't see how this game would be playable with "normal" ship-speed.

we can keep detailing the usual "not to do in a shmup"-things again and again... in the end it's perfectly playable as it is now... IF one want to

edit: also the so called "Euroshmup-lifebar/shield" is in fact THE fundamental part of it's gameplay-mechanic.

Both the ship movememt and air to ground targeting controls currently have an acceleration curve being applied. Meaning it takes so many milliseconds for the game to recognize full deflection as its applying speed gradually. It's more apparent when using the d-pad or keyboard. On hard difficulty, during some of the later boss fights, there are bullethell moments when micro dodging is 100% needed. The acceleration currently being applied makes it feel more difficult (and janky) than it needs to be.

We really need an option in the controllers section to toggle off acceleration.

[AntiramDSR]

The inertia is noticeable when you start moving, but when you stop, the ship immediately stops. It still feels too imprecise and makes micro dodging awful (Even more considering the batshit insane ship speed), but it's better than your ship sliding all over the place.

I still don't know why shmup devs insists on adding any kind of inertia in a genre where you need precise controls and this is like rule #1 on "What to NOT DO when making a shmup" but... oh well.

well... the inertia is there if you insist on using digital controls for ship-movement and then, yes... it becomes a problem. this is one of those rare occasions in a shmup where i prefer analog-controls. and with them i prefer slightly initial inertia for micrododging also. but then: it's no microdogde-heavy game at all.

this game is build around dualsticks. really no problem here at all. also i don't see how this game would be playable with "normal" ship-speed.

we can keep detailing the usual "not to do in a shmup"-things again and again... in the end it's perfectly playable as it is now... IF one want to

edit: also the so called "Euroshmup-lifebar/shield" is in fact THE fundamental part of it's gameplay-mechanic.

Both the ship movememt and air to ground targeting controls currently have an acceleration curve being applied. Meaning it takes so many milliseconds for the game to recognize full deflection as its applying speed gradually. It's more apparent when using the d-pad or keyboard. On hard difficulty, during some of the later boss fights, there are bullethell moments when micro dodging is 100% needed. The acceleration currently being applied makes it feel more difficult (and janky) than it needs to be.

We really need an option in the controllers section to toggle off acceleration.

that's what i meant with "initial inertia" which is, i have to admit, a strange way to name it (it's hot and sultry today)

[Shatterhand]

Yeah, you don't need to micro dodge. You just "raise your shields".... yawn.

Managing health bars has been a staple of european gamedevs for decades. I don't think it was possible to finish "Vampire" or "Venom Strikes Back" for the Spectrum without losing health. It was about when and where to lose health and knowing when you were going to get the extra health pickups.

And on shmups, yeah, undodgeable bullet patterns that you use "your shield" to survive have always been here. And yeah, european developers always used the health bars, shields, whatever, as "an excuse" to not need to balance their patterns properly. Which is exactly what I felt when I played Cygni (which I'll say in the past since I've alredy uninstalled the game). But here you trade firepower for health.... which, again, has been done before on european shmups*, and never seen as a good mechanic....

.. and... damn, I don't want to go for much longer...... I really don't want to gatekeep what people should enjoy. But Cygni is riddled with game features that have always been considered bad (or "Janky" if I want to sound like I'm not 41 years old ), even worse on shmups, and most of them were pointed from day one on this thread. You are, of course, free to enjoy the game, but it's really weird to see features that have been done before and always frowned upon now seeing as revolutionary, good, fun, or anything like.

But I must be an old geezer. I remember the time when games like Dragon's Lair were seem as poor for their lack of gameplay depth, but we call this "QTE" and see it as a valid gameplay mechanic. I just don't get gaming anymore.

-

But this I really want to say: Drainus and Schildmaid MX are games that used the shield mechanic as a fun one instead of "I know the patterns make no sense but here is some shield and I'll call this a feature"

[Eyvah_Ehyeh]

One thing that bugs me about this game is the decision to have your shields fill up automatically with energy pickups ONLY if you are maxed out on the weapon side.

Like... why?

It's such a strange choice - just make it fill up shields by default, then when that is full, weapons.

As much as I love this game (yeah, I'm 51), it's just not fun for me with the 1-life in Normal difficulty. Easy is too easy - I feel like 3 lives in Normal would have been perfect.

All valid points, and I mentioned hose two and the inertia thing in the Cygni discord. I don't notice the inertia very much "in general", but when micrododging I feel that the controllers are too slipe-and-slidey.

[AntiramDSR]

One thing that bugs me about this game is the decision to have your shields fill up automatically with energy pickups ONLY if you are maxed out on the weapon side.

Like... why?

It's such a strange choice - just make it fill up shields by default, then when that is full, weapons.

As much as I love this game (yeah, I'm 51), it's just not fun for me with the 1-life in Normal difficulty. Easy is too easy - I feel like 3 lives in Normal would have been perfect.

All valid points, and I mentioned hose two and the inertia thing in the Cygni discord. I don't notice the inertia very much "in general", but when micrododging I feel that the controllers are too slipe-and-slidey.

i'm micrododging quite well with analogstick, no chance with digital cause of the acceleration... true! but i'm sure without the acceleration i would go all over the place on analog cause of the high ship-speed and tuning this also down wouldn't fit how i get used do play this. no acceleration would feel like in r-type final 2 on the highest speed setting... thats just jumping around an inch per tap... hm whatever they do, it should be fully configurable. oh and deadzone settings would be great.

[Aceskies]

I dont have a problem with inertia in Cygni because it is very short and, most importantly, it is much more easy to handle when using joystick. The slight acceleration makes more sense when its you pushing a lever and taking time to do it. Everytime I see someone complaining about the controls in the game I feel they are using dpad, which is not good in this game.

That said, the final boss is all about micrododging and I can see the frustration when you cant activate some kind of focus shot to dodge slowly (such as in cave games). Hence why micrododging, in this game, when necessary, its MUCH harder than your everyday shmup of the last 20 years. Still the game overall is a lot easier than the regular bullet hell and much much easier than psikyos and similar stuff.

I dont like the idea of the game "getting better" over time by adding stuff. I mean, its welcome you know, but this is not a live service game. I am not feeling like coming back to the game everytime a patch is released, unless new Gameplay is added.

[Shatterhand]

I dont like the idea of the game "getting better" over time by adding stuff. I mean, its welcome you know, but this is not a live service game. I am not feeling like coming back to the game everytime a patch is released, unless new Gameplay is added.

I feel this just doesn't work for shmups. It's okay if you want to add new modes, correct bugs, etc. But changing the core of the gameplay is something I feel shouldn't be done, since shmups are games for hi-score chase at their heart, and you will have different versions of the game where you can't access the "older" version anymore.

I can still choose if I want to play Japan or World version of Batrider, for example.

[XoPachi]

Just tried this.
Easiest uninstall since ForSpoken. That was thoroughly rancid.

[blue_z]

Really fun quirk is that raylight has no charge delay when used immediately after a ground charge laser.

Having a great time but stuck on stage 5 hard mode atm

[ExitPlanetDust]

Started another fresh save medium difficulty playthrough to make sure my session last night wasn’t an RNG fluke. No problems. Cruised through. So I deleted that save and went again. Probably better, more points to buy shit. It really is all about keeping your power level at 6 and missiling out when you get overwhelmed. Even with no upgrades the stage 1 boss is a chump with level 6 guns.

Stage 2. Jesus. This is euroshmup HELL. It’s beautiful, but the enemy bullets sound like a hail storm on a tin roof for the first chunk of the stage. Take damage, get power up drop to restore shields, repeat. The boss was kind of lame too. Yes, yes, wave your drill dong in my face while your arms grind me with um-telegraphed attacks. Yay.

I’ll keep going later this week. So far medium difficulty is perfectly fine for an initial playthrough if the player keeps their guns at max as often as possible. I’ve settled into speed 2 with analog movement (DualSense). Hopefully this is fast enough movement for what’s to come later in the game. Otherwise I’ll need to bump the speed up and relearn everything.

[XoPachi]

I will give this game one thing, the graphics are astounding. That first boss's intro sequence? The ground he rose from was probably the most realistic crumbling Earth effect I've ever seen in a game. There's a nice visual depth too.

[blue_z]

Finally beat stage 5 on hard, that was brutal, I needed to focus the boss non-core parts more than I was which made it a lot easier.

I’m coming from character action and extreme sports games so I love games with a lot of inputs options from the player.

I love all the controls Cygni gives you when controlling the ship, I think it’s part of why I’ve enjoyed it more than other shmups with simpler controls. Weapon swapping, energy management and juggling ground/air targets comes together in a really fun way.

Shmups like this, Radiant Silvergun, and Sol Cresta are really sticking with me because they feel like a combination of complex action games and arcade games. Any recommendations based on this would be great!

[AntiramDSR]

Finally beat stage 5 on hard, that was brutal, I needed to focus the boss non-core parts more than I was which made it a lot easier.

I’m coming from character action and extreme sports games so I love games with a lot of inputs options from the player.

I love all the controls Cygni gives you when controlling the ship, I think it’s part of why I’ve enjoyed it more than other shmups with simpler controls. Weapon swapping, energy management and juggling ground/air targets comes together in a really fun way.

Shmups like this, Radiant Silvergun, and Sol Cresta are really sticking with me because they feel like a combination of complex action games and arcade games. Any recommendations based on this would be great!

sounds like you would love Armored Core 6

[-Fish-]

Stage 2. Jesus. This is euroshmup HELL. It’s beautiful, but the enemy bullets sound like a hail storm on a tin roof for the first chunk of the stage. Take damage, get power up drop to restore shields, repeat. The boss was kind of lame too. Yes, yes, wave your drill dong in my face while your arms grind me with um-telegraphed attacks. Yay.

If you dedicated your firing position to just one side of the screen with a decent spread and homing percentage you can take very minimal damage at the stages difficult beginning. Also tapping very slowly upward, from screen bottom to top, helps. The bullets from opposite screen side will always be just behind your ship then. Somewhat similar to the tactics used in a bullet hell.

Also, the boss arms glow briefly before initiating their attacks if I remember correctly.

[ExitPlanetDust]

If you dedicated your firing position to just one side of the screen with a decent spread and homing percentage you can take very minimal damage at the stages difficult beginning. Also tapping very slowly upward, from screen bottom to top, helps. The bullets from opposite screen side will always be just behind your ship then. Somewhat similar to the tactics used in a bullet hell.

Also, the boss arms glow briefly before initiating their attacks if I remember correctly.

I tried the one side tactic and it kind of worked. I was watching my captured footage earlier and I do see that the boss telegraphs its attacks very briefly. My ship speed might be too low to avoid it though. I also noticed a few things like the tunnel beam that I could have hid in to avoid the arms for one of its attacks. I did make it through the stage on my first try, so tanking is viable tactic. This is an initial playthrough on medium so I’m light on upgrades and unsure what to take into battle yet.

Thanks for the tips and your continued dedication to this game. I wish more would approach it like you do.

[Eyvah_Ehyeh]

I dont like the idea of the game "getting better" over time by adding stuff. I mean, its welcome you know, but this is not a live service game. I am not feeling like coming back to the game everytime a patch is released, unless new Gameplay is added.

I feel this just doesn't work for shmups. It's okay if you want to add new modes, correct bugs, etc. But changing the core of the gameplay is something I feel shouldn't be done, since shmups are games for hi-score chase at their heart, and you will have different versions of the game where you can't access the "older" version anymore.

I can still choose if I want to play Japan or World version of Batrider, for example.

This would not bother me, but maybe also I can have this lax attitude because I don't compete at any high level. I mean if some highscores are set in the first months of the games release? Man, you should be able to do better eventually! Therefore some clean wipes the first weeks or months are feel are perfectly justified. It's the new trend anyway that games are released while not completed, so the first months are just a kind of release testing anyway.