Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

BIL wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:33 pmHe was never apt at defending himself, even when randoms would pop into a thread to tell him his posts were shit. As happened in the thread itself.
A good lesson on why defense attorneys (particularly public defenders) play an important role in the criminal justice system. Being a weirdo and being absolutely terrible at defending oneself does not make someone actually guilty, but it does make it very easy for them to be made into a target. Find a dumbass to pin the crime on, case closed, right?
PerishedFraud wrote:You get what you ask for, I guess. No, I'm not talking about cheating. I'm fairly sure the real intent was just to eliminate Perikles anyway.
That or just to stir up drama, any unfortunate casualties be damned. The instigators are, to this day as far as I'm aware, totally free from any sense of shame or remorse, such is their infallible belief in Perikles' supposed guilt.

edit: lol, totally missed that ScHlAuChi or someone claiming to be him posted.
ScHlAuChi wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:11 pmHi, I´m that "notorious" player! The reason you hate me is because you deliberately misinterprete the intentions behind those videos.
Your first post and we're already off to a rough start. As previously stated:
Sima Tuna wrote:World of Longplays used to not even mark that their runs use savestates, and you'd see storms of idiots in the comments congratulating schlongchi for his perfect play.
So yeah, that sums it up nicely. Your descriptions on videos still often fail to mention that they are tool-assisted runs and not skill displays, which results in you receiving many comments praising the skill involved and gives a flawed impression on many games of how natural play would actually work. In order to find an explicit disclaimer about tool assistance I had to click your site link, click FAQ, click General, scroll to the bottom and click another tab. It's extremely odd you'd make people do this rather than simply put under each video description "This is a tool-assisted run that uses slowdown and savestates in order to record the whole game and is not intended as a skill showcase!". Your defense that it's fine because there's a disclaimer buried deep on your website reminds me of this exchange from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

ScHlAuChi wrote:That is not correct, the text says "Most videos on World of Longplays use savestates" not "some" as you claim. The reason for that is, we do record some games on original hardware too, where no Savestates exist.
Oof. So, by not doing a good job of differentiating between actual legitimate runs and tool-assisted runs, you're creating confusion for your viewers and you're devaluing the work of people who've put effort into learning to play the game well enough to record it vs the people who play it by simply savestating their way to the ending. That's bad.
ScHlAuChi wrote:Here´s an uncomfortable truth for you - I have done more for the shmup community than you ever did in your life!
If I could erase my memory of this godawful Progear longplay from my mind, I would. It fails to showcase the gem cancelling system that's in the game that radically changes how the game functions when you know how it works, because doing even basic gem cancelling causes large amounts of enemy bullets to be erased. There's a massive fundamental problem with deciding getting someone to save-state through a game is good enough for showcasing a game. I'd far rather watch someone skilled play it, or even an unskilled player legitimately struggle trying to learn the game for real. What you're doing to shmups, a genre that fundamentally requires some skill to properly showcase the game mechanics, is ultimately a shallow effort and a disservice.

Can shmups footage that doesn't even attempt to learn the game mechanics be said to be worthwhile? I sure as heck wouldn't claim that a challenge run of Espgaluda that never uses kakusei is a good way to showcase the game to new people!

Reminds me of this footage of Snarf, an MS-DOS game where you have to navigate a maze full of monsters. The player, unfortunately, fails to realize you can use WAXD keys to shoot in 4 directions (this is largely the game's fault, the title screen gives basic instructions but forgets to mention you can shoot, something I think was only in the .DOC file that came with the game), which means the footage they're showcasing looks nothing at all like how someone who understands the game would play it. If something like that happened I'd put a huge disclaimer in the video description explaining what happened or I'd delete the footage and rerecord it properly.
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Tue Jul 09, 2024 11:18 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Rastan78
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by Rastan78 »

To take the criminal trial analogy a bit farther, the jury would be interviewed thoroughly and all Perikles fan boys or haters eliminated from the jury. Deleting the channel or existing copies of videos would be considered evidence tampering and would come with its own criminal penalties. :lol:
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by marus »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:That or just to stir up drama, any unfortunate casualties be damned. The instigators are, to this day as far as I'm aware, totally free from any sense of shame or remorse, such is their infallible belief in Perikles' supposed guilt.
FWIW, while I agree the Perikles situation was handled really poorly, I think it's unfair to classify the accusers as just wanting to stir up drama (at least the initial accusers - the thread definitely turned to shit real fast). Thing is, we've never had a cheating case before for such an established community member, so it's no surprise to me that someone who thought Perikles was cheating wouldn't know what to do about it. I mean hell, we barely have functioning leaderboards, let alone processes or moderators to investigate cheated runs.

Yes, the evidence should have been organized better first, and yes, Perikles should have been given a chance to respond privately before a public thread turned the whole thing into a circus. But I do think the accusations came from a good-faith effort to weed out illegitimate runs.

Anyways, besides that case the only other major cheating accusation that comes to mind was Sikraiken. My memory's fuzzy on that one, but I seem to recall the only thing that came out of that was Prometheus and Sikraiken yelling at each other from their rocking chairs about what their favorite color ships were or something.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by Arino »

I've cheated on a girl, but it was before I got into Shmups so it doesn't count I guess.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by Sima Tuna »

What happens in shmups forum stays in shmups forum. You can cheat on your girlfriend with all the ships you want here.
check out this pin-up
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

marus wrote:I mean hell, we barely have functioning leaderboards, let alone processes or moderators to investigate cheated runs.
This was already discussed at length; trying to maintain scoreboard legitimacy is an awful process. Seriously, look at Twin Galaxies or WolfMAME's score sections. They can't manage it and god knows they've tried for years, only to discover .INP input replay submissions can be faked. Instead of burdensome requirements for score submissions, the forum has a more relaxed vibe. If someone's aiming for WR tier scores then obviously there's a higher burden of proof, but otherwise the forum serves primarily as a community discussion forum first and foremost that happens to have a high score board section. Does every single score, even modest non-clearing scores, require extensive scrutiny if it's being posted by a player who's been an active participant in game discussions and is generally known to have a decent reputation?

If you're looking for an utterly unimpeachable scoreboard 100% free of any questionable submissions the only way to hope to achieve this is implementing incredibly restrictive and burdensome requirements that risk impacting the more relaxed vibe here. You'd have to be incredibly strict and only allow scores seen played live in-person (no recordings or livestreaming which can all be faked), with physical witnesses. No compromises. You could demand that you see their hands while recording but then have fun trying to go through every video and see if the hands match the inputs. And it's guaranteed that eventually someone will try to see if they can cheat for purely for shits and giggles. Have fun moderating the impossible!~

Let's be honest; Perikles was never going to have his name cleared in their eyes. Even if he played live in person and put up a Tatsujin 2 live clear or something they'd likely have claimed it was somehow cheated or that he was able to learn the game well enough to clear it now but his previous run was still fake, etc. The only real winning move is not to engage with them, which I guess he kinda did in his own way...
marus wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 4:13 amBut I do think the accusations came from a good-faith effort to weed out illegitimate runs.
You're wrong, and you've fallen hook, line, and sinker for exactly what that thread on 4chan that spurred things on set out to do. And at least a couple of the more infamous participants in that thread who were involved with that group had well known vendettas against the forum. Congrats.

edit: and sorry but no, I'm not giving the play-by-play of what went down for people who are curious but don't want to do the dirty work themselves of wading into that dumpster fire of a thread, I'm done here
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Tue Jul 09, 2024 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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Didn't he clear Tatsujin Ou in like 2 weeks? IiRC it took Japanese players a full month when the game came out. We're talking about a player base that would blind 1CC hard games at loke tests at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong on those details.

Whenever someone is performing at the limit of human ability or even pushing to a new level their performance is going to invite a higher level of scrutiny. This is true in sports, rubix cube, chess you name it.

The controversy was never around scores it was around the speed and ease of difficult 1CCs. So the score thing is a red herring.

If people are going to get bent out of shape at the mention of asking for basic proof of legitimacy and declare "this is a witch hunt!" that doesn't help. You would have individuals on either end of the spectrum -out to take somebody down with vengeance or willing to blindly defend a friend to the bitter end- in any case. Most are going to fall in the middle and say well I can see why at least a discussion was warranted and clarification would be good for the community.

I don't see any player who comes clean and says "yeah i cheated some runs, sorry" getting permabanned. The community is too chill overall for that.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 2:15 pm
You're wrong, and you've fallen hook, line, and sinker for exactly what that thread on 4chan that spurred things on set out to do. And at least a couple of the more infamous participants in that thread who were involved with that group had well known vendettas against the forum. Congrats.
4chan? Vendetta? Infamous participants? Huh?? What have I missed ? Can you give some kind of description as what actually happened instead of those weird vague indications? I'm not challenging you, curious more like.

I don't use 4chan so all I have ever known is this thread, which did begin (in my eyes) as rather levelheaded before apparently descending into something else (I only read few first pages of that, as well).
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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I remember during the height of the thread, I thought to myself that perikles couldn't have dunnit, and started looking for a replay I could review that only I had special knowledge of. Of course, because I am one of the few people who were dumb enough to devote a lot of time into Skull Fang, a game that's janky, broken, and full of "gotcha" traps designed to whittle down your worthless life bar.

Aha, here's something I can actually comment on!

The run proceeds more or less as I expected, with nothing unusual, trying to survive a shit game. I was more or less satisfied until I got to the mecha boss recycling voice clips from wolf fang (stealth ad for the upcoming city connection pack?!) who, when he bellows one of his old standbys (EDIT: this is actually the attack in question as I recall, just wanted to post the voice clip), starts a spread attack that is pretty tricky to dodge... unless you do what's immediately obvious and just macro around it. As I watched the replay, what stood out to me as really strange, instantly, was that perikles micro'd into the spread pattern instead of around it. This makes no sense, since your hitbox is weird, the bullets are trolls, health is sparse, and a consistent and safe strategy stares you right in the face. But in both times the attack happened, he just happened to dodge in the worst way possible, and succeed each time. Slim evidence? Perhaps. But it clued me in onto a simple realization: that someone who actually knew the game in question would realize that something was wrong (and how unlucky it is for me that Dull Fang is the game I have intimate knowledge of). Getting lots of survival clears is about mitigating risks, and you can play a hell of a lot more riskily if you, say, suddenly have twice the reaction time that the game expects you to.

As the knowledge base of players expands, you run the risk of someone actually playing and clearing Same!Same!Same! taking a closer look at your video. People for a long time can skirt by on the reasonable assumption that no one watches their recordings, or if they are, they aren't watching closely (like World of LolPlays*). There's enough tatsujin ou players (jesus, what's wrong with them) that saw his run now and cried foul, either 1/1000 luck, repeatedly almost constantly, week after week, or, well, you know.

And here I was hoping this thread would be some funny remembrances of goobers who have tried to pull fast ones on the community, like Luy saying "My computer and mame are old, that's why I didn't notice my replay running at 50% speed in the tournament!" or Gus falling head over heels for VixyNyan despite her blatant pause-buffering because the prospect of a real (asian) gal grinding Futari was enough to set his loins on fire.

*not even throwing shade here on GOD GAMER SCHLAUCHI, just the average viewer has no idea what they're watching
Last edited by EmperorIng on Tue Jul 09, 2024 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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Rastan78 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:52 pm Didn't he clear Tatsujin Ou in like 2 weeks? IiRC it took Japanese players a full month when the game came out. We're talking about a player base that would blind 1CC hard games at loke tests at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong on those details.
Savestate practice dominates arcade games so hard it makes me feel guilty. Although, I think it evens out. On PS4 alone, we have access to impossibly more games than players did BITD. And adult time is limited, whether you're a lamer tradbro or feral NEET. Expedience is attractive, and perhaps even a positive. More efficiency = more results = more discussion.

But I don't think anyone can deny it decimates a game's longevity, when you zero in and break it down this way. captpain used to liken it to professional musicians workshopping a particularly tricky movement, because starting over each time someone scratched a note would cause psychosis and cancelled tours. Expedience is no problem for diehards who treasure these games, of course, no more than credit-feeding is.

I'm not surprised to hear he managed that with the tools he had available to him, in addition to existing runs for reference. The run itself was discussed in the thread, in detail. I appreciated the effort, ultimately wasn't convinced he cheated. It appeared to be his usual desperately bombspamming survival 1ALL.

The Same3 allegations I'm still willing to entertain, partially because I can't recall the replay itself. But if people like Jaimers and chum think something is off, that warrants attention. I look forward to comparing notes the way I did Gun Smoke.

And that should've remained the standard. The OP video was so poor, I initially assumed it was included as satire. It instantly reminded me of Banana (PBUH)'s comments on the warped standards of the supposed "hardcore hangouts". Came for the "Jarpig-free insights," found Reddit-tier 1CC-mythologising slop. Stayed for the seething school shooter rage and eager discussions of posters' careers and families, because spergwatching is a casual vice of mine.
If people are going to get bent out of shape at the mention of asking for basic proof of legitimacy and declare "this is a witch hunt!" that doesn't help. You would have individuals on either end of the spectrum -out to take somebody down with vengeance or willing to blindly defend a friend to the bitter end- in any case. Most are going to fall in the middle and say well I can see why at least a discussion was warranted and clarification would be good for the community.
I agree on principle, of course. I was reached out to at the time, prior to the big reveal. I said my piece and thought no more of it. In hindsight, they clearly assumed I had some in with him. We were very fond acquaintances, and as far as I'm concerned still are. If I'd known what they were planning, I would've happily offered to make the thread myself. I'd gladly have asked him on the forum's behalf to affirm his runs as legitimate, even though I personally never doubted him, and we could've dealt with it from there.

Instead, they gave him unfortunately specific carte blanche to say fuck yourselves. A blatant hitpiece video, and endless reams of conjecture peppered by ~BASED~ dunks, calling his entire post history shit, accusing him of making mad $tacks off monetised runs, and so on. My favourite thing to come out of it was Lags joyfully tonguing poor Mark's asshole for a job well done, later on, only to delete his message as post-nut clarity bit down. Based!

I can't even call it a tacit admission, as much as principle tells me to. That is the operating cost of being a classless piece of shit. Or in that thread's case, associating with them. People can do the worst things to you in response, and nobody will care.

EDIT: Holy fuckin shit, this thread summoned ScHlAuChi. :shock:
ScHlAuChi wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:11 pmHi, I´m that "notorious" player!
Welcome aboard! Wasn't ignoring you, just the usual approval wait for new accounts.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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Sima Tuna wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 12:24 pm What happens in shmups forum stays in shmups forum. You can cheat on your girlfriend with all the ships you want here.
check out this pin-up
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I for the life of me have been wanting to find that image that was posted on here maybe 10 years ago that says “forget about her, go for the 2-ALL!” with a daioujou spread in the background of a guy/girl photo
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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wtb hi-res posters of the cute AZN girl playing DOJ nude and the buff white dude doing same, for research purposes. Image

I figure putting them either side of the cab will be a powerful concentration booster. (■`w´■) Thinking of butt u like? ;3 LOOK AT BUTT U DON'T Image Well, unless you're into both I suppose. Then it'll either cause Scanners headsplosions IRL, or perhaps create superhuman concentration levels. Like Scanners!
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 8:05 pmedit: lol, totally missed that ScHlAuChi or someone claiming to be him posted.
Christ it's brutal isn't it, the approval lag. Makes it look like a newbie has either been ruthlessly ignored (LOL NOOB), or left peerlessly unassailed (OMFG SCURRED). Time travel legsweep bullshit. Image
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 2:15 pm Stuff about cheat detection
Sorry, I didn't make my point very clear. I agree it's a bad idea to add restrictions to posting scores here. Even if I thought it was possible to implement, it doesn't make sense for how small our playerbase is right now.

I was just trying to set the stage for how the thread started in the first place. If you look at things from the accuser's perspectives (and I might as well stop beating around the bush - I'm primarily talking about NTSC-J here), he was stuck between a rock an a hard place in terms of what actions to take. On one hand, you have suspicions from credible players about Perikles' runs, but on the other hand we as a community have had no precedent for this kind of situation, or a support system to handle it. In a more established speedrunning community for example, there'd be moderators to bring your claims to, and since this is a more common occurrence in speedrunning they'd have a) more tools for detecting fake runs, and b) more experience in doing an investigation without stirring up (too much) drama. Re-reading the first post of the thread too, NTSC-J did actually try to contact Perikles privately, and he was dismissive of the claims and refused to provide any additional information that could help. I still think the thread was a mistake (at least in its current form), but I can understand why he'd go to that as a last resort to bring things out into the open.

Basically, NTSC-J was dealt a bad hand, and he played it poorly. He deserves some blame for that, but also it's unfair to pin everything on him when he was taking on responsibilities that no one else wanted to deal with.
BIL wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:49 pm The OP video was so poor, I initially assumed it was included as satire.
Yeah that was my biggest grievance too. It set the stage for a shitshow. Better evidence got put together eventually, but things had flown off the rails by that point.
EmperorIng wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:48 pm And here I was hoping this thread would be some funny remembrances of goobers who have tried to pull fast ones on the community, like Luy saying "My computer and mame are old, that's why I didn't notice my replay running at 50% speed in the tournament!" or Gus falling head over heels for VixyNyan despite her blatant pause-buffering because the prospect of a real (asian) gal grinding Futari was enough to set his loins on fire.
LOL FUCK I reread that VixyNyan thread and that was a good laugh. I wish the replay was still up; there's not a lot of comedy shmup content.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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Some-Mist wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:31 am I for the life of me have been wanting to find that image that was posted on here maybe 10 years ago that says “forget about her, go for the 2-ALL!” with a daioujou spread in the background of a guy/girl photo
Image

While I'm posting, just my two cents: I thought it was pretty blatant Perikles was cheating, but I didn't mind because he wasn't claiming records or doing it for any competitive advantage. It was just for his own ego. Only his response bothered me.

Also, SCHLAUCHI and World of Longplays is awesome. I love that I can find a playthrough of virtually any game I can think of just by searching for it. It always seemed obvious to me that the purpose of the channel was to show the full "content" of a bunch of games in a timely manner rather than the skill of any player.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

ScHlAuChi wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:11 pmstuff
My advice: Take all the emotional baggage out of both sides and look at it objectively.

1. No one's mad that the videos exist, rather that they misrepresent some games. Or, to rephrase, people who actually want the videos taken down are whiners that should be ignored.
2. The only demand worth listening to is to put a disclaimer in descriptions instead of placing it on-site somewhere, because frankly, people won't look there, and the people here (myself included) care about how the videos impact the audience, not about there technically being a disclaimer. Description is fine, video title would be impossible to contest.

That's it. That's all there is to it. I've mentioned Shadowserg before and you're free to look at him if you want an actual "villain", ie someone who uses the same methods but claims that he's legit. Meanwhile, the actions of WoL are appreciated and this is just people asking for clarity. They're angry because actual noobs get misled, not because WoL bad huehue (or you specifically for that matter). The fact that the average youtube watcher won't ever look at the WoL site is also not your fault, but we can't really change that!

Also, welcome to the forums. Hopefully you can have a nice time here! We've got plenty of fun to go around when we aren't discussing serious business.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

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DietSoap wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 1:33 am
<3

Also mad respect for the ScHlAuChi presence. While I admittedly don’t watch many of the vids, they certainly serve a purpose even though they aren’t highlights of the mechanics
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by emphatic »

BIL wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:49 pm
Rastan78 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:52 pm Didn't he clear Tatsujin Ou in like 2 weeks? IiRC it took Japanese players a full month when the game came out. We're talking about a player base that would blind 1CC hard games at loke tests at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong on those details.
Savestate practice dominates arcade games so hard it makes me feel guilty. Although, I think it evens out. On PS4 alone, we have access to impossibly more games than players did BITD. And adult time is limited, whether you're a lamer tradbro or feral NEET. Expedience is attractive, and perhaps even a positive. More efficiency = more results = more discussion.
It's a very controversial opinion in these parts to frown upon save states. Speaking out about it will end you in a flame war. Change my mind. Clears of un-emulated arcade games like MrMonkeyMan's old Ketsui videos from PCB will always be more impressive to me than save state grinders. :|
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by BIL »

emphatic wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:03 am
BIL wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:49 pm
Rastan78 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:52 pm Didn't he clear Tatsujin Ou in like 2 weeks? IiRC it took Japanese players a full month when the game came out. We're talking about a player base that would blind 1CC hard games at loke tests at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong on those details.
Savestate practice dominates arcade games so hard it makes me feel guilty. Although, I think it evens out. On PS4 alone, we have access to impossibly more games than players did BITD. And adult time is limited, whether you're a lamer tradbro or feral NEET. Expedience is attractive, and perhaps even a positive. More efficiency = more results = more discussion.
It's a very controversial opinion in these parts to frown upon save states. Speaking out about it will end you in a flame war. Change my mind. Clears of un-emulated arcade games like MrMonkeyMan's old Ketsui videos from PCB will always be more impressive to me than save state grinders. :|
Change mind difficulty level: impossible. 3; :wink:

No I don't think it's an unreasonable position at all, just a hard one to live by. It's undeniably vastly tougher without them, and strictly speaking, they are of course completely inauthentic to the original releases. I get why someone would avoid them on principle. I rationalise it as a modern solution to a modern phenomenon: backlog. I'm alright trading away some authenticity to get competent at more of the past decade's deluge of killer M2+Hamster releases. I like playing games competently and then writing about them, I can do more of that.

Personally, I never got to experience arcades in their heyday. Combination of where and when born. So these have always been console games to me, I suppose. Just arcade-tight ones directly imported from the cabs. My first sustained exposure was Metal Slug 4 on PS2, which features a Stage Practice Mode. Reach a stage, it's added to the menu. I really liked that. I ended up learning to 1CC each stage individually before I'd move onto the next, despite not knowing 1CCs as a concept just yet.

Now I type this, I remember I did exactly the same with Raystorm on PS1. I still subconsciously regard it as a toned-down port, despite coming to realise it must've been pretty goddamn close. All my old routes ported over fine to M2's Ray'z for a launch day 2CC. I honestly can't recall if Strider 2's PS1 port has practice, I want to say it did via Time Trial... anyway, that's what I like to replicate in M2/Hamster stuff. No less inauthentic, but a little more structured-feeling. I think Stage Practice is a great idea for home ports, at any rate.

If there's something very specific, like a final boss with a nasty instakill, or just something weird I want to experiment with, I'll make a state for that. Namco's mecha sidescroller Finest Hour is an unfortunate exemplar, here. Its final boss (fought twice per 2ALL) is criminally unfair. It's a very short game - 10min 2ALL? - and gorgeously produced, so I suppose they wanted to maximise player time... but holy fuck. It would've killed my boner for this ultra-cool game stone dead. I can't imagine how Japanese players felt at the cab. Actually, I would love to ask some.

Three instakill attacks requiring perfectly-memorised timing; fail any, and you're instantly Game Overed. Looks simple, and is - just jumping rope, basically. But with the heavy handling and blinding-fast projectiles, the timing is elusive and utterly unforgiving. I saved that video for reference when I returned. Ultimately, I'm happy. 2ALL attempts remain absolutely white-knuckle. I just arrived at the point where I was ready to attempt them sooner than if I'd been agonisingly learning each of those three dodges, over many dozens of doomed credits.

Anyway that's all I got emph-san! Honoured you would ask the opinion of one such as I. Soft-arse console babby over and out. 3; Image Image
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by MJR »

The whole experience of gaming is so different these days compared to the time when many of these games were released. I could spend hours and hours on console / computer shmup, and on arcade; as much as I could afford.

Its no problem for me to practise my Raiden DX for 20 years by hooking up my pcb and having a go when I feel like it;

But I cant imagine learning an arcade game today without save states. I just dont have that time any more.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by Sumez »

Sima Tuna wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:36 am On an impulse, I decided, "hey, the most recent arcade game I played was Rolling Thunder 2. Let's see what happens when I plug it into youtube's search."

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +thunder+2

The first result is World of Longplays. The second result is World of Longplays.

[...}
They would never, ever use the word "cheat" anywhere in their descriptions. At best, buried deep in the description, might be a small reference to using save states.
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 8:05 pm “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
From Sima's very own link:
Image

...and before we get into the tired old "debate" about them being dirty cheaters, and only put that text there because they were persuaded to - The biggest issue with World of Longplays isn't that they "cheat" (a "Longplay" was never advertised as a legitimate run, yadda-yadda-yadda, don't bother arguing with this), but rather how strong their SEO is.
A "Longplay" is fine if you just want to reference some stage, graphics or setting in the game. In fact, I specifically gravitate towards Longplays if I want to see something in a game's attract mode, or a menu, which a legit run is unlikely to demonstrate. But if you want to see how a game looks when played properly, it's a pretty terrible reference - at least for arcade-style games, or mostly anything skill-based.
Last edited by Sumez on Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

Search longplay to scout gamea. Search 1cc and 1-all/2-all to scout strats.
Last edited by PerishedFraud ឵឵ on Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by BIL »

PerishedFraud ឵឵ wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:12 amscout gamea
Patrician style :cool:

COMMAND: TO AVENGE MANKIND ON DICKSTOCK AGGRESSORS (`w´メ)
COMMAND: SCOUT GAMEA (■`w´■)
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by copy-paster »

MJR wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:27 amBut I cant imagine learning an arcade game today without save states. I just dont have that time any more.
Tfw you will never ever get emphatic's social credit recognition because us shitters plays with save states, ports, emulators, practice modes, wouldn't buy $2000 single PCB+arcade cab setup.

HOW SAD!
Last edited by copy-paster on Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

Nice
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by Sima Tuna »

ScHlAuChi wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:11 pm
Let the dogpiling games begin!
This response is pretty much what I expected. It's what I always hear from these kinds of cheated runs. "It's ok because there's no expectation of us not cheating." "It's ok because we show off the games to a wider audience than would see them." "It's okay because we put a disclaimer on our website nobody visits, instead of on YouTube where everyone was finding them for years." "It's okay because (after community pressure) we added the disclaimer to descriptions."

It is good to see you are open and frank on this forum that you do use slower game speed. The savestates were known and listed in disclaimer (although not initially on youtube) but I have not seen you in comments on youtube (granted I have not looked at the comments to every one of your longplays) admitting that you run the games at slow speed.

Of course it takes a lot longer to play a game well at the full game speed and without save states. That's kind of the point. It's not about ego, even though you think I have a personal stake. I don't post 1ccs to youtube and don't have any skin in this game, except as a player who enjoys watching 1cc play and seeing game strats that actually work as opposed to blatant cheating.

All you have to do is look at the comments section to any of your playthroughs on world of longplays and you will see the majority of commenters believe you are playing the game legitimately, without cheating. So whatever WoL is doing to notify people the runs are cheated is clearly not sufficient.

To me, there is a very strong element of Stolen Valor in the youtube culture of cheated/unmarked TAS runs. You create a false impression of yourself, the games (because your strategies do not work) and longplays in general. Some may disagree, but I don't think a tas or cheated run is a fair longplay of a video game. A longplay should showcase what the game is, how the game is played and maybe some basic strategies (based upon what the player does) that work for the game. Like, you wouldn't expect to see a longplay of Mario Bros where the player never jumps on a goomba or picks up a mushroom, but instead uses micro-hops to leap over, around and past all the enemies... Because they were playing on super slow speed. People would reasonably ask why the dude playing didn't just jump on the goombas and pick up the extra hits when that's more logical. It's bizarre behavior. And then somebody who doesn't know anything about Mario Bros might watch the cheated run and think that's what they're supposed to do when they play. Or that the person playing is super amazingly awesome at the game.

In my opinion, the titles for all WoL runs should include either (TAS) or (SAVESTATE) in them. This way, it will be impossible for casual viewers to miss the disclaimer of what kind of run it is. Since you've stated your goal is to showcase the games to as many people as possible and that this is of far greater benefit than some scrub like me can achieve, you surely won't object to my suggestion and will resolve to implement it immediately. This change is just more honest with the youtube audience and they will appreciate the longplays for what they are.
Spoiler
For what it's worth, I don't have any objection to save state PRACTICE. But when you post a real run, it should be without save state and it goes without saying one should not run the game at half speed or slower.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

I like the TAS tag idea. It's easy to add, solves the issue perfectly, and might even boost views because TAS has its own audience
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by Sima Tuna »

PerishedFraud ឵឵ wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 1:01 pm I like the TAS tag idea. It's easy to add, solves the issue perfectly, and might even boost views because TAS has its own audience
I don't see any issue with implementing it. It conforms to exactly what SCHLAUCHI's stated goals were in his post.
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by Some-Mist »

I don't have the time but I still don't use save states.
I should, but for me it's still enjoyable to uncover new stages/sections naturally even if it leads to a very unbalanced run (getting progressively sloppier up until the final boss). that's why I'll be getting nowhere close to any WRs even if I had the skill to do so (I don't)
a creature... half solid half gas
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by Angry Hina »

Rastan78 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:52 pm Didn't he clear Tatsujin Ou in like 2 weeks? IiRC it took Japanese players a full month when the game came out. We're talking about a player base that would blind 1CC hard games at loke tests at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong on those details.

Whenever someone is performing at the limit of human ability or even pushing to a new level their performance is going to invite a higher level of scrutiny. This is true in sports, rubix cube, chess you name it.

The controversy was never around scores it was around the speed and ease of difficult 1CCs. So the score thing is a red herring.
Think so too. But before I've seen the quality posts of him, I realized about him bein on nearly all leaderboards in Sys11 on #1. So it was a motivation of him bein #1 nearly everywere as well, I guess. Because I am not a #1 candidate for most games (but in Darius Twin by the way :D) , its not a big thing for me but if I would be someone who is in top 3 of some games, it would be very unpleasent for me and such cheated #1 scores could reduce the possibility of someone showing up and writes pericles-style high value in depth posts about games because of those possibly cheated #1 reputation.

@ScHlAuChi
Nice to show up in "enemy territory" ;)
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Re: Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

Post by To Far Away Times »

We did Perikles dirty. I always looked forward to his long winded posts. He was eccentric, but always entertaining, and he certainly had a way with words.

I do think he cheated a few runs, and I'll admit I had my suspicions even before that thread since he was on the top of nearly every leader board. But I watched a number of his replays when the "scandal" happened and almost all of them seem legit. And so much of what he played was highly obscure stuff. What I don't get is why would you cheat in a DOS game only a few a few dozen people have ever played so you can claim you went through a ridiculous number of loops? Despite him posting a score on almost every high score thread, I got the impression he was much more of a 1CC player, and didn't focus as much on score.

I also don't think it's fair to demand someone clear a game to prove they can do it. I wouldn't do that for anyone either, and I would see that as a self respect issue. That motivation has to come from within.

But cheating often does happen among the best players who feel they already put in enough effort to "deserve" a 1CC or high score. Karl Jobst's youtube channel has a section dedicated to exposing cheaters in speed runs, and one common theme is that cheating often comes from those with the talent to not have to cheat for those records.

We lost one of the best members on the forum, and I don't think we came out ahead after all of it was said and done.
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