Prelude to the Apocalypse

[Sima Tuna]

... Maybe, just maybe, if Biden ('s handlers) had the balls to go through with some of these and pull the "I'm on official business and immune from prosecution" BS, then maybe the Supreme Court would stop and think about the can of worms they've just opened.

That's just the thing; assuming I understand it correctly, this ruling doesn't actually give the President any new powers, it just makes it nigh impossible to hold him accountable for abusing - or attempting to abuse - the authority he already has. Basically, if Biden ordered his subordinates to do something crazy he wouldn't have any additional means to force them to comply if they refused, but if the latter ever attempted to blow the whistle on him they'd hit an automatic dead end.

From where I sit, it's the same difference, isn't it? A man in the office of the presidency has many ways of compelling cooperation. Even more if there's no possibility of prosecuting him. What would stop me from just threatening to kill people who don't do what I tell them? Communications between the president and other government officials are not subject to legal review! Sure, maybe he can't legally compel people to do anything extra, but now he can't be punished for extra-legally compelling them.

I wonder if the president would even be safe from prosecution if he took a gun out (in private, of course) and held it to the head of a member of Congress? The communication between the two of them cannot be used in court. He was acting in the office of the presidency.

One presumes that actually shooting a Congressional official who refused this extra-legal coercion might still be prosecutable... Although the precedent set by the ruling suggests perhaps not. Is a literal smoking gun good enough to prosecute a president?

[Air Master Burst]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: as far as I'[m concerned anyone who still calls himself "undecided" after everything that's happened is a Trump/GOP voter who won't admit it.

All the republicans say the exact same thing; undecideds are a vote for Biden. I guess that means if you vote for a 3rd party or write someone in your vote counts three times!

Unhinged but awake will usually prevail over a literal zombie with a fucking crackhead for a trusted advisor. Of course, that didn't stop americans from voting en masse for the Weekend at Bernies routine that was Reagan's second term, so who even knows.

If any of these people gave even the slightest shit about anything other than themselves Biden would've been shuffled off to the speech-and-memoir circuit as soon as Obama was done with him.

[BulletMagnet]

Turnout won't fix this.

Considering that the right has been very openly working to lower turnout for a very long time, most brazenly via outright voter suppression (sorry, "election integrity"), you might want to get in touch with GOP leadership because they don't seem to have gotten the memo.

Every single poll where voters are asked their opinion about particular policy issues without having said issues attached to a particular party or candidate finds the Democratic platform overwhelmingly more popular - it's the reason why one of the few bright spots in recent state elections has been the frequent rejection of abortion restrictions in the aftermath of Dobbs. Yes, Trump's total vote went up when turnout increased in 2020 - but (spoiler alert) Biden's went up more.

The GOP is, by definition, a minority-rule party - if the majority actually shows up (and even moreso if we scrap the awful winner-take-all/first-past-the-post system we use for tallying votes, so said voters are better represented) they simply cannot maintain power without, well, fake electors and Cyber Ninjas and riots and the like.

So yeah, sorry, the "but her emails" crowd absolutely deserves to have its precious feelings hurt and to be "lectured" about growing the hell up and voting with their brain for once: seriously, if you say you need someone to specifically "motivate" you to keep authoritarians from taking power, how opposed to authoritarianism can you even claim to be in the first place? As one commentator put it, when you see someone walking along train tracks with headphones on when a train is coming, now's not the time to yell at them about how bad their playlist sucks (yes, believe it or not, even if you really, really hate their favorite band! There is actually something more immediately important to consider!). Get them off the tracks first or there won't be a further conversation to be had.

They absolutely will ping pong between the parties and nothing seems to bother them. I imagine they can still be persuaded to vote for a Democrat, but I'm not sure a sundowning 81 year old is going to convince them.

Finally, stop with the media. The swing voters don't give a shit about Trump's lies or his criminal behavior. Telling them again won't help. You're trying to reason with unreasonable voters. Stop it!

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth here: so swing voters are potentially persuadable because they don't bother getting deep into the issues themselves, but the simplified, digestible messages they get from the media somehow don't matter?

For whatever it's worth I still consider this a moot point: if you're so unattached from politics that you can still say there's "not much difference" between the parties then you're simply going to go with whichever side is willing to tell you the prettiest lies, and that side will always be the right ("Cutting taxes for rich people actually increases revenue!" "Racism will go away if we just stop talking about it!" "Teaching the Bible in schools will solve everything!"). Part of me very much hopes I'm wrong, but every time we've been told, for literally years on end, "if the GOP goes too far on this, the swing voters won't like it" the cavalry almost never shows up, especially on the national level.

From where I sit, it's the same difference, isn't it?

Yes and no - if the President is surrounded by people who take their own Constitutional oaths seriously and refuse to submit to his whims, then the checks and balances present in the law can still at least be used to stifle his agenda from actually taking effect; that being said, the fact that he is now completely unaccountable for trying to abuse his power according to the Supreme Court is still, to put it mildly, highly troubling.

Of course, the flipside of the coin is that if the President instead appoints a cadre of cocksucking loyalists in positions of power around him (we got a very stark preview of this during both of his impeachment trials, where most of the GOP openly stated they would refuse to convict him before the trial had even begun, no matter what the evidence was) not only can he get away with attempting to enact any horrific "official act" he wants, but said horrific things actually happen. Which makes the existence of Project 2025 and its ecstatic embrace even by supposedly "moderate" conservatives even more chilling to consider.

[orange808]

Every single poll where voters are asked their opinion about particular policy issues without having said issues attached to a particular party or candidate finds the Democratic platform overwhelmingly more popular -

Of course.

Obama essentially came out of nowhere. The GOP had limited opportunity to counter his rise. More importantly, Obama had limited opportunities to show everyone he was a ordinary right wing politician. Obama could convince swing voters that he might actually do something. Of course, he didn't.

The key to Obama was his ability to sell his hope. That "hope" embodied some of the Dem agenda. You need the agenda and someone to sell it.

What did he deliver? Medical bankruptcy protection for rich boomers. That's pretty much it. That's the other thing. The Democratic agenda is a bullshit lie. The GOP sprints to use small windows to get things done. Shitty Obama sat on his hands when he controlled the government.

He let the banks off the hook completely, too.

That left a scar!

And, Obama didn't lie about it like Trump does. He didn't claim he tried to help. Obama was mostly honest about his status quo, right wing, and neoliberal beliefs. Trump is still scooping out his fake populist slop and the morons are lapping it up.

These swing voters can't tell the difference. They believe Trump didn't deliver because Democrats stood in the way. Swing voters don't know or care

Swing voters have the memory of a fruit fly and the mind of an octopus. They just wiggle around on instinct and they don't even know what their hands are doing!

So, we need a fresh face that isn't already known to be a greasy grifter politician. Of course, the person that gets nominated will be, but swing voters don't know that. Trump is even worse, so it's all we've got. (Which is exactly what the people in charge want.)

Gotta get four more years of oxygen. Hell if I know what's next. Probably nothing. The Dems won't have the votes to unravel this fucking SCOTUS mess without drastic action. Dems don't take drastic action. Ever.

And, there won't be any constitutional amendments in the near future. We'll be staring down the end of democracy in four years again. It's just like the debt ceiling. Of course, sooner or later we will default and we will eventually stop running out in a panic to vote for "not Republican" presidents. But, the aristocrats must have more, more, more!

[Sengoku Strider]

It almost makes Chief Justice Roberts' (along with Mike Johnson and the rest of the soulless ghouls backing him up) hand-waving dismissal of the dissenters on the court as dealing in hysterical hypotheticals seem somehow, I don't know, disingenuous.

"These hypotheticals they’ve made up [that] future presidents are going to turn into assassins and all the rest...The president and vice president are the only two officers in our constitutional system that are elected by all the people, no one who is elected to that office going to be prone to this kind of crazy criminal activity" - Mike Johnson

Well, I'm sold.

[GaijinPunch]

The obvious and hilarious answer would be for Biden to immediately turn around and order the justices who decided this to be executed.

LMAO - I was thinking the same thing.

[Sengoku Strider]

Democrats are really trying to play the game of chicken where they test whether America would rather vote for a sociopathic narcissist criminal dictator or a black woman:

Former Obama administration official Van Jones said Wednesday that Democrats, behind closed doors, are discussing “how” to replace President Biden at the top of the ticket, “not whether.” The CNN commentator said the Democrats who defend Biden on TV have “completely different” conversations in private, amid growing concern in the party about Biden’s standing as the presumptive nominee. “But there is a big conversation happening right now about how this happens – not whether,” he added.

Jones suggested Democrats were proceeding under the assumption that Vice President Kamala Harris would be next in line for the top spot. Among the questions Democrats are trying to answer, Jones said, is, “Who should Kamala Harris’s vice president be?”

Maybe this guy's just her mouthpiece floating that out there to see how it takes, but if not I don't get it. The nominee hasn't been confirmed, they could put up anybody with real credibility - Taylor Swift, John Cena, anybody with a serious shot.

[orange808]

Harris' problem is bigger than race or gender. She got herself associated with open borders. That was a stupid unforced error. Outside of the virtue signaling minority that dominates the press and social media, a majority of Americans support border policy --and with good reason. People may support some degree of asylum and immigration, but open borders are a complete nonstarter.

She was too terrified to be honest and it cost her.

There isn't an established, wealthy, developed western nation on the planet (anywhere!) that supports open borders with every nation. Specifically, "open borders" means the ability for people to arrive freely from any point of origin. Border policies enjoy wide support throughout every electorate. Border policies are also supported by sane realistic economists and national security personnel in every nation.

Having a border policy and a regulated border is essential and non-negotiable. Only a stupid fucking jackass would allow themselves to become associated with idealistic "pie in the sky" bullshit. Harris fell into the trap.

I agree the world isn't fair. I even agree we aren't doing enough to make the world livable for everyone. But, opening up the borders isn't the answer. That's something an eight year old would suggest.

I don't know if Biden marched Harris out on a hopeless mission or not. She should have been smart enough to say "no". Instead, she became the queen of open borders to swing voters. She can't unfuck her border quagmire before November.

[orange808]

They absolutely will ping pong between the parties and nothing seems to bother them. I imagine they can still be persuaded to vote for a Democrat, but I'm not sure a sundowning 81 year old is going to convince them.

Finally, stop with the media. The swing voters don't give a shit about Trump's lies or his criminal behavior. Telling them again won't help. You're trying to reason with unreasonable voters. Stop it!

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth here: so swing voters are potentially persuadable because they don't bother getting deep into the issues themselves, but the simplified, digestible messages they get from the media somehow don't matter?

No. I'm not contracting myself.

Who's delivering the message? Joe Biden? That's the messenger?

Fuck.

"Disconnected from the polls" is a fun quote. Anyone that thinks running a sundowning 81 year old fossil against a very animated and lively Trump is a winning proposition is (also) delusional. Know who's delivering "simplified, digestible messages"? Donald Trump.

Know who isn't even finishing coherent sentences? Biden.

And, that's the media's fault?

I already explained why Obama could sell his "hope" message and fool people into believing he might do something. That's what the Dems need now: someone to deliver their fake promises, while simultaneously assuring the aristocrats that we will change nothing. Swing voters need to believe in a generic naive "hope" message and simultaneously not blame the politician for current problems. It's actually very close to what Trump is doing, but on a smaller scale.

Yeah. Swing voters might listen to the right candidate, but grandpapa Biden farting in the cushion and passing out in his rocking chair isn't going to get it done. We need a fresh face with very little established record as a politician. We need someone that can fool people into believing the billionaire donor class aren't in complete control. We need someone that can go toe to toe with Trump in a live unscripted debate. If we cannot produce it, the swing voters will go for Trump's lies--and they don't give a shit what the media says.

[BulletMagnet]

So you can add former Arizona governor Jan Brewer to the ever-growing list of "reasonable" Republicans who go on at length about the damage Trump has done to our institutions and how it's affected them personally...then casually caps it off by saying she's still voting for him.

As I've said before, it's not the MAGA diehards that worry me - it's the millions of people who clearly know better but are going to support the authoritarian anyway, because fuck you.

No. I'm not contracting myself.

What you're doing, as you so often do, is wandering off on a completely different tangent while pretending you actually addressed what I said, but you know what, we all have bigger things to worry about.

[orange808]

Swing voters don't give a fuck. You can bitch and whine about it all you want. It's not going to change.

They will decide the election, so we better find a way to reach them. And, they don't give a fucky fuck about identity politics or authoritarian doom.

That's all there is to it. I'm right and I know it.

The polls do say that ~75% of Americans think Biden is too old. I bet that's 75% or more of the swing voters. So, you don't have a message for swing voters that they give a shit about or anyone to deliver the message.

[Air Master Burst]

That's all there is to it. I'm right and I know it.

Isn't this exactly the reasoning Biden's giving for not stepping down? That's easily the most american thing you've ever said.

[orange808]

That's all there is to it. I'm right and I know it.

Isn't this exactly the reasoning Biden's giving for not stepping down? That's easily the most american thing you've ever said.

Except the numbers support my argument. Democrats say they care about numbers and facts, but you do the same dumb shit as Republicans.

Shit like flying off the handle and suggesting murdering people. Or stocking up on guns...

And, I've been around here and there. I've heard plenty of drunken assholes tell me all kinds of shit. The best is when they tell me all about Americans--and do everything they are criticizing in the process (of rattling off their diatribe).

[Sengoku Strider]

Woke up today in the timeline where Newsweek runs editorials from fascists on Independence Day weekend.

[Air Master Burst]

Democrats say they care about numbers and facts, but you do the same dumb shit as Republicans.

Still not a democrat.

Shit like flying off the handle and suggesting murdering people.

I love that you consider my tongue-in-cheek suggestion that Biden start ordering executions as flying off the handle while you've been in full-blown hysterics for like 2 pages now.

[orange808]

Democrats say they care about numbers and facts, but you do the same dumb shit as Republicans.

Still not a democrat.

Shit like flying off the handle and suggesting murdering people.

I love that you consider my tongue-in-cheek suggestion that Biden start ordering executions as flying off the handle while you've been in full-blown hysterics for like 2 pages now.

You defended your suggestion multiple times and then there's the paranoid gun thing.

Project 2025 doesn't exist and Trump doesn't support it, right?

[Air Master Burst]

You defended your suggestion multiple times and then there's the paranoid gun thing.

I think I see the issue. Your heart's in the right place, but you're one of those people who can't compartmentalize. You see me arguing that the recent supreme court ruling would make Biden ordering executions perfectly legal and think that I am personally advocating for it.

To be clear, I'm a full-on Marxist. I don't give a shit what the democrats do, I'm probably never voting for them anyway.

Project 2025 doesn't exist and Trump doesn't support it, right?

You ask very leading questions, like you already assume an answer before you get it. Why is that?

[orange808]

Why is that?

You've mistaken urgency for hysterics. I have valid reasons to fear a complete Republican government in America. Frankly, a large part of the planet does, because the United States has an outsized influence on global politics and economics.

[orange808]

“The only thing age does is create a little wisdom if you pay attention.”To the naysayers who say he cannot win, (Biden) whispered, “No poll says that.”

Wow. That's deep... Is that what his 81st birthday card said?

Because, he's right. Polls don't say that, but greeting cards do.

[Sima Tuna]

Biden should take note of all the left-leaning publications that started talking about possible replacement candidates right after his debate performance. Those organizations are supposed to be on your side, Joe. When even they are thinking about how to cut losses so the Dems have a chance of holding the White House against Trump, maybe pick up a clue.

That said, I still maintain he probably is the democratic candidate with the widest voter appeal... I mean, among the candidates that the DNC career politicians and big business would allow to run.

[Air Master Burst]

That said, I still maintain he probably is the democratic candidate with the widest voter appeal... I mean, among the candidates that the DNC career politicians and big business would allow to run.

This take always confuses me. If modern democrats were anywhere near this organized they would've never let themselves get strongarmed into running Hillary and Biden. They'd have a stable of well-spoken photogenic drones to slot in wherever they needed so they didn't get stuck in this sort of easily predictable dilemma.

This country has spent the last 5 years dreaming of voting for literally anyone but Biden or Trump; fucking Bill the Cat and Opus would take this thing in a landslide. The fact that the democrats don't have any sort of contingency for an 81-year-old succumbing to the inevitable crush of time makes it pretty clear they have no ruling council of elites, or any sort of unified plan at all.

[Sima Tuna]

That said, I still maintain he probably is the democratic candidate with the widest voter appeal... I mean, among the candidates that the DNC career politicians and big business would allow to run.

This take always confuses me. If modern democrats were anywhere near this organized they would've never let themselves get strongarmed into running Hillary and Biden. They'd have a stable of well-spoken photogenic drones to slot in wherever they needed so they didn't get stuck in this sort of easily predictable dilemma.

This country has spent the last 5 years dreaming of voting for literally anyone but Biden or Trump; fucking Bill the Cat and Opus would take this thing in a landslide. The fact that the democrats don't have any sort of contingency for an 81-year-old succumbing to the inevitable crush of time makes it pretty clear they have no ruling council of elites, or any sort of unified plan at all.

They ran Hillary and Biden because a populist liberal candidate is not appealing to the DNC mainstream new democrats. That's what I mean. The voters would like that candidate but the DNC itself would not.

[Air Master Burst]

They ran Hillary and Biden because a populist liberal candidate is not appealing to the DNC mainstream new democrats. That's what I mean. The voters would like that candidate but the DNC itself would not.

No, they ran Hillary and Biden because the DNC has no power whatsoever. If they did, they could check the ego of these terrible presidential candidates, keep them in the senate where they belong, and run someone who average americans don't viscerally recoil from. Even Biden was fine as long as he had a pulse, but the DNC couldn't stop his team from running his corpse this time because they're powerless incompetents.

[BulletMagnet]

Woke up today in the timeline where Newsweek runs editorials from fascists on Independence Day weekend.

"Hold my Diet Coke". (EDIT: Actually Junior was already there a month ago.)

Oh, and the Project 2025 guys have already decided that the election shouldn't be certified.

Probably nothing to worry about, undecideds.

[orange808]

Oh, and the Project 2025 guys have already decided that the election shouldn't be certified.

Probably nothing to worry about, undecideds.

I understand and echo your frustration, but those people don't care.

So, how do we reach them? Telling them "Trump bad" isn't working. Lecturing them won't work either.

Honestly, Clooney should go on the ticket. No, seriously. That's what they want. They won't vote against Trump, but they will vote for a movie star.

Normally, the swing voter types would be a small frustration. We would all just listen politely and sympathize. Unfortunately, they are difference in the election. I don't want to cater to them, but it's the only choice we have..

Run Clooney.

Yes. A lot of "love me, I'm a liberal!" Dems would cry because Harris looks like what they want in a president. Ultimately, they will vote for Clooney, because they understand the Trump threat. They want to see a black woman sitting in the oval office that will also behave like a white person. Their dream of installing a safe center right puppet with the right skin color and sexy parts will have to wait.

Of course I'm in the cold. Trump is so dangerous, the true lefties will also vote for anything in blue. I know I will.

Here's the worst kept secret ever: It doesn't matter if we piss off the centrist libs this year. In fact, it doesn't matter what we do with decided Never Trump voters. Yep. That includes ignoring lefties like me. They don't have to do shit for me. The corporate centrists have us all trapped. The regular "Trump apocalypse" threat feels a lot like the manufacturered debt ceiling "crises" right now.

So, let's find something these knuckle dragger swing voter undecideds will actually embrace. I say run Clooney. That's four more years of oxygen.

[Air Master Burst]

So, let's find something these knuckle dragger swing voter undecideds will actually embrace. I say run Clooney. That's four more years of oxygen.

He'd be perfect, but I don't think he's stupid enough to do it. Same problem with Michelle Obama.

Anyone with a pulse who looks the part will do, though. Bill Pullman could probably recite his ID4 speech and cruise to a landslide.

[Sima Tuna]

Trump just won the election. Tabulating votes is merely a formality at this point.

[neorichieb1971]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiWTZdB4u6M

Trump got shot at by something, a bit quiet for a powerful gun, but shot at all the same.

[To Far Away Times]

A day for the history books. I despise Trump, but this is not the way. Dems are supposed to be above these types of things. I think Trump pretty much locked up the election tonight. Fuck.

[neorichieb1971]

A day for the history books. I despise Trump, but this is not the way. Dems are supposed to be above these types of things. I think Trump pretty much locked up the election tonight. Fuck.

Apparently it was an AR15, the killer was shot dead almost instantly and there was 1 fatality. Presumably someone behind Trump who took the hit.