RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

[Guspaz]

It looks like the specific combination of features isn't supported on the RT4K. You can reconstruct the progressive image using bob offset (or maybe 2:2 pulldown), but it'll still be detected as 480p for scanline purposes.

[Strider77]

Well that's no fun... hopefully it'll return on the 4K in a future update.

[Strider77]

Another question:

"By default, the Auto setting will select Rec. 709, and toggle to Rec. 2100 when HDR is enabled. You may wish to manually set output to Rec. 2020 (without HDR enabled), Adobe RGB or DCI-P3 if your display supports a wider color gamut."

Reading this I'm unsure of one thing. My display does support Abode RGB. But I am unsure if I should toggle over Rec. 2100 when HDR is in use or is staying with Abode RGB is fine in HDR also.

Would choosing Abode potential cause issues with anything else or even worth it?

[Guspaz]

Does your display support HDR? I can't imagine why a display in HDR mode would be using Adobe RGB.

[Strider77]

I don't know why, that's why I asked. I don't know why the Tink 4K offers it and I don't know why my TV allows me to choose it (while HDR is present) if I shouldn't.

The wiki's wording doesn't do much to clarify or say that you shouldn't.

"Rec. 2020 (without HDR enabled), Adobe RGB or DCI-P3 if your display supports a wider color gamut."

"without HDR enabled" is in parentheses beside Rec. 2020 and NOT after Abode RGB (or DCI-P3).

[orange808]

Are you using a professional monitor or a projector? Probably not.

Leave the defaults and play your game.

[Strider77]

Well, my TV clearly offers it and allows me to select it (even during HDR).

I'm not claiming to know the nuances about this and that's why I came here to ask. I COULD just use defaults/auto but also come here to learn more about the features presented by both the 4K and my display. Ideally also be brought up to speed on why mixing HDR with Abode RGB is bad or improper (or pointless).

Must I provide proof that my display lists it as an option? Screw it... I'll just go to the Discord. I remember the days when threads for hardware like this were way more active (and more focused on nuance then just using defaults). I use to learn alot in here.

[Guspaz]

EDIT: This new feature is now live in firmware v1.4.9

Some news from Mike, and I'll just quote/embed his Twitter posts here:

Working on next generation masks by adding an alpha channel to selectively blend/overlay.

I think this will be a big benefit for handheld LCD simulation.

Credit again goes to billgonzo on the tink discord!!

This is what we have currently… the white space between pixels gets blended which doesn’t happen on a real LCD. Driving me nuts

[orange808]

Well, my TV clearly offers it and allows me to select it (even during HDR).

I'm not claiming to know the nuances about this and that's why I came here to ask. I COULD just use defaults/auto but also come here to learn more about the features presented by both the 4K and my display. Ideally also be brought up to speed on why mixing HDR with Abode RGB is bad or improper (or pointless).

Must I provide proof that my display lists it as an option? Screw it... I'll just go to the Discord. I remember the days when threads for hardware like this were way more active (and more focused on nuance then just using defaults). I use to learn alot in here.

I believe Adobe's color gamut standards are for photographers and commercial artists that use pro monitors and beamers. It's possible your display "supports" some other color gamuts. Maybe that would be useful for digital signage use cases? "Support" doesn't mean it's displayed properly.

AFAIK, we don't have any video game content that can take advantage of the full Adobe color gamut. So, it's really not worth worrying about. Standard Rec.709 and Rec.2020 is probably all you need. Furthermore, there's no guarantee a consumer television actually displays that full wide Adobe color gamut you're suggesting. It may "accept" the signal, but we have absolutely no idea how it gets handled and displayed. Does it really display the full range of colors or does it dither the information? We don't know.

If your bought a decent panel, you can feel reasonably confident that your consumer panel will handle Rec.709 and Rec.2020, because those are the general standards that most sources and content use. IIRC, those are the defaults.

I have a projector that struggles with Rec.2020, but that's not something normal users will encounter with a panel from a big box store. So, it's an option for users with niche displays.

[Guspaz]

Rec.2020 is much wider gamut than Adobe RGB, and it's what TVs and content are going to target for HDR, so there's no reason to use or care about Adobe RGB unless you have a specific reason to do so.

[orange808]

Yep. In my use case, Adobe RGB is only wider than standard "sRGB" Rec.709 and useful for my beamer that can't handle Rec.2020 well. I wanted to use "HDR" to make the image brighter with 1080p 240Hz BFI and scanlines--at the cost of some accuracy. Most people aren't going to need the option or have the gear to calibrate things.

PS
The results and motion clarity are jaw dropping. It surpasses the factory BFI that ships with Barco sim projectors. Could I get this with another video processor machine? Not today.

[Strider77]

I understand better now, unless my panel is native there is no point in needless conversion. If I understand correctly 2020 is for 4K SDR (and so far I haven't found motivation not to use HDR).

"Transfer Function: Can be set to "sRGB 0.055", "Rec.601/709 0.099", "SMPTE 240M 0.1115" or "Gamma". The various transfer functions linearize the low-end of the gamma curve to avoid bit loss. "Gamma" uses a simple gamma encoding."

Am I using this to tell the Tink 4K what my source signal is in? Currently I have it set to sRGB 0.055. If not, what is this choice dictating in the conversion process?

[tongshadow]

If the Wiki says extended color gamuts should be used even without HDR, then I guess the Tink4K is capable of doing a very good job at converting colorspaces, since it states that accuracy may improve.

[Guspaz]

From a pure colourspace standpoint, Rec.709 is standard HD SDR, while Rec.2020 is 4K HDR. Technically Rec.2020 was extended to 2100 for actual HDR use, but the colourspace and whitepoint is the same.

[nissling]

AFAIK, we don't have any video game content that can take advantage of the full Adobe color gamut.

Adobe RGB 1998 is only to be used for proofing photos prior to printing. In fact, the color gamut of Adobe RGB is not that much larger than that of sRGB (tho it will look larger it when viewed on a logarithmic diagram like CIE1931). The vast majority of all colors look identical between two color spaces when used properly with color managed software. However Adobe RGB does cover some more of cyan that sRGB does not, and when converting from RGB to CMYK you will run into issues when you cannot properly cover the primaries.

Basically Adobe RGB was never intended for anything but cover the gap between computer monitors and printing enviroment. Unless you're using an operating system with color management like macOS, you will most likely run into far more issues with a display that follows Adobe RGB rather than sRGB unless you specifically do printing.

[Mr.Ash]

Since I couldn't find another thread about the Retro Tink 4K, I'll post my questions here.

A few days ago I became the proud owner of an RT4K (yay). I'm generally very happy with the device, but I've also encountered a few problems for which I can't find a solution:

1.
Since I also use a JVC DTV 1710g CRT in addition to my Sony 4K OLED TV, I would also like to output resolutions of 480p/60 and 576p/50 via RT4K (depending on whether I use PAL or NTSC games). The CRT is connected via HDMI to VGA (RGBHV) adapter.
Unfortunately, it turns out that the RT4K can only output 480p/60 but not 576p/50. This leads to PAL games not running smoothly and stuttering when scrolling (because 50Hz has to be upscaled to 60Hz or vice versa). This phenomenon is also noticeable with 4K/60 when playing PAL games, so I have created my own profiles for 4k/50 output.
Furthermore, the 480p/60 output of the RT4K seems to be strongly shifted to the left, which means that I have to enter relatively large offset values on the CRT to center the image (this is not the case with the Sony 4K TV). This is not the case with other 480p/60 sources such as my DVDO VP50, where the picture is displayed more or less in the center right from the start without me having to enter large offset values on the CRT.

Long question short: Is 576p/50 output planned on the RT4K? What can be done with 480p/60 output so that the image is not shifted so far to the left?

2.
The HDMI input of my RT4K is connected to the good old DVDO VP50 which outputs a 1080p/60 or 1080p/50 signal depending on the game (PAL or NTSC). By default, this is upscaled to 4K60 or 4K50 via 2x scaling, which also works well (apart from the fact that HDCP is not supported). But is there also a pass-through option, i.e. without the RT4K doing anything with the signal?

3.
If I connect my PS3 directly to the Sony 4K TV and switch on the console, the TV is automatically switched on via HDMI CEC (or HDMI device control, as Sony calls it) and switched to the correct input. The same happens with the home theater AVR which is connected to the 4k TV via HDMI ARC connection.
However, if I connect the PS3 to the RT4K, this does not work, i.e. I have to set all inputs manually on both the 4K TV and the AVR.
Is HDMI CEC somehow possible or planned?

[bobrocks95]

576p50 could be added as a custom modeline, check the wiki for information on adding those. Potentially you could do a 480p60 modeline as well with a large horizontal front porch to offset it more to the right.

No passthrough as far as I'm aware, probably better to add a splitter if possible- 1 output straight to display, another to the Tink. The other option is just select 1080p50 and 1080p60 outputs when appropriate on the Tink. I do question what the DVDO can do that the Tink can't at this point.

I've also heard you might be able to get away with a 1080p60 output for 50Hz content if your display is tolerant of gen lock and I'm remembering things correctly.

HDMI CEC is not planned and since it never was I'm not sure if hardware is missing for it if Mike ever changes his mind. Morph 4K does have CEC.

[Guspaz]

The 480p positioning is probably just that there are many "480p" timings and the CRT probably has a different calibration/offset for the 480p timing used by other devices than what the RT4K is outputting. If you make a custom modeline for the RT4K to match what the other 480p devices are outputting, it should look the same.

I believe that for CEC the lines aren't connected. Most users want to avoid any CEC contamination in their setups.

Passthrough, if you set the same output resolution as the input resolution, it should be functionally equivalent to passthrough. Use genlock or framelock and the output refresh rate will match the input.

Not sure the DVDO stuff serves any purpose when there's an RT4K in the mix.

[Mr.Ash]

I do question what the DVDO can do that the Tink can't at this point.

The 480p or 576p output of the DVDO via RGBHV simpiy looks fantastic at my JVC DT-V 1710g CRT Monitor. Even 720p and 1080i from the DVDO look way better compared what i get from the RT4K. And yes, i've tried multiple HDMI to RGBHV adapters, but either way the picture quality does not satisfy (big offset, and a lot of flicker).

On the other hand my good old DVDO VP50 is part of my gaming equipment since almost 20 years and i still think it's performs very well with proper 240p handling (depending on firmware and settings) and still fantasic handling of 480i/576i content, all this with minimal lag between 0,5 - 1,5 frames. Of course not a crisp and razor sharp like the RT4K, but in general still a great AV hub.

But yes, it's left purpose is to feed my JVC CRT with great 480p/576p content. For all other tasks the RT4K is my prime choice.

[orange808]

I still keep a DVDO hooked up for emergencies, but the chroma subsampling and trademark ringing from the Anchor Bay scaler are always there. Probably less noticable on your CRT.

I never got correct 240p support from any DVDO, except the vp50pro. Unfortunately , the results don't look very good. The chroma subsampling really hurts the output.

I've had pretty good luck with a GBS Control (modded Gonbes) after using a distribution amplifier to split and route the "raw" analog input signal to multiple destinations. You might consider one in the future. It gives me many of the same conveniences of the DVDO, analog output without an external DAC, no signal dropouts, and better general image quality. Depends on use case. My GBS-C is there to make sure my PC-CRT always gets a compatible signal.

[Mr.Ash]

trademark ringing from the Anchor Bay scaler are always there. Probably less noticable on your CRT.

With regard to ringing, I have found that this is heavily dependent on the device and firmware used.

With the VP50 Pro from firmware 1.05, DVDO has implemented the long-awaited correct 240p signal detection, but with massive ringing artifacts. With firmware 1.04, on the other hand, 240p is incorrectly recognized as 480i (and therefore also unnecessarily deinterlaced), but the ringing is very limited and can be almost completely eliminated with the sharpness setting of -1. The latter also applies to the VP20, VP30 and VP50 devices.

That's why I strongly advise against all subsequent DVDOs (Duo, Edge, Edge Green, Mini and Micro) in terms of gaming, as they (like the VP50 Pro from firmware 1.05) support 240p natively, but then with massive ringing.

This is probably also the reason why the DVDOs are so bashed in terms of ringing. With the right device and firmware, however, this problem is almost non-existent. In relation to 240p, which is recognized as 480i, gamemode 1 provides a remedy, which softens the picture a little too much, but displays typical problem areas such as drop shadow correctly.

[ZellSF]

Feature reduced 475$ variant:
https://www.retrotink.com/post/holiday- ... e-and-more

[AaronSR]

I watched the RetroRGB video on the CE, for the deinterlacing is it just using the same Motion Adaptive like most other scalers use? And for the "Inverse Telecine", doesn't the 5x already do this? Why is it not possible on the CE (at least for lower resolution outputs)?

[Guspaz]

The motion adaptive deinterlacing is the same as the RT4K Pro, but without the configurability or support for edge-adaptive interpolation. The CE can also reference only the prior frame for motion detection, while the Pro can reference multiple past frames.

The RT4K CE currently uses the exact same firmware as the RT4K Pro, just with certain features disabled or configured differently to fit on the smaller FPGA. So a feature that can be limited as-is (like reducing the number of prior frames to reference for deinterlacing) can stay, but for inverse telecine the RT5X uses a substantially different implementation that doesn't exist in the RT4K firmware, and the Pro's version of it doesn't fit on the CE.

It's possible that some Pro features will make it back into the CE after refinement and refactoring. Some features may even get new lower complexity implementations that makes them possible on the CE. However, you should always buy a product for what it can do today, not for what it might do in the future.

[neorichieb1971]

Feature reduced 475$ variant:
https://www.retrotink.com/post/holiday- ... e-and-more

It would be nice if the 5x got a CE as well at a reduced cost. Still wanting a 5x but I keep getting distracted by expensive games and new releases.

[jd213]

Was hoping that the 5X would get a price reduction after a while, but looks like it's actually gone up in price, as have the recently restocked 2X Mini. Guess they still sell decently.

[SGGG2]

Does the RT4K have the "Non-interlace restore" option found on the OSSC Pro?

[Guspaz]

Isn't that just bob offset? Then yes.

[SGGG2]

Great! It varies by title, but for PS2 games using GSM at 1080i you can get an image that rivals or is nearly identical to 480p from the Xploder boot disc by trying both offset values. Off the top of my head, Sonic Riders Zero Gravity, RE Outbreak 2, Nightshade and Clock Tower 3 all look like native progressive, although Clock Tower requires different offsets for gameplay and cinematics. Given that 1080i is the most compatible mode in GSM, this could drastically reduce on the amount of titles that require deinterlacing.

[bobrocks95]

The 2:2 pulldown on the 4K is great as well for 480i 30 fps titles with a consistent framerate. Dragon Quest VIII has never looked better.

Are there any GSM compatibility lists that are anywhere near up-to-date? 480p support was so bad I gave up on using it.