From Software 'n such

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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guigui
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by guigui »

FinalBaton wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:25 pm Hello friendos.

So I finally got myself a "modern-ish" console (a ps4 slim. Lol! Not so modern...) and bought Dark Souls Remastered. I'm having an absolute blast! I've just killed Smaug & Oynstein, so I'm mid-game I guess? Or maybe 2/3rds through?

The way the areas are connected together, is amazing. Love the atmosphere too so far. You never know what dangers roam around the corner too, so it keeps me on edge of my seat.

I'm not great at the game, but dammit I persevere and I always manage to beat bosses/areas without range attacks ; _ ;7 pretty proud with myself and I get a great sense of accomplishment out of it.

The Demon Ruins with the titular demon "Senseless Discharge" was such a cool fight, with that excellent epic religious-choir song, and me looking like a Nazgul with the Black gold-hemmed kit, two-handed sword on my shoulder and rolling under the demon's attacks. A proper large-scale event and moment!

Very proud of reaching the top of Sen's Fortress on my own as well after several attempts. I was tough and I almost got discouraged for a bit there, but I knew I could do it and I pressed on. Only needed a peek on online guides to find the bonfire. Iron Golem fight was fun fight also I thought. I'm sure it's not that hard once you know what to do, but getting some fights in to figure him out, was a thrill. And getting his knees to bend with Great Club and ultimately having him fall down the top of the fortress, was satisfying.
Always great seeing new players enjoying the series, it is so rare nowadays that it has become so popular.

You're definitely seeing why those games are great, and the first time is the best. So please keep enjoying and keep us updated on your progress.
Bravo jolie Ln, tu as trouvé : l'armée de l'air c'est là où on peut te tenir par la main.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

You can always look up where to go if you get lost, but other than that, stay as blind as possible. Part of the fun of these games is shaving hours off your time on subsequent playthroughs when you have mastered the systems and know where everything is. Dark Souls is a good contemporary example of the arcade philosophy that progress is never lost... Because the progress was inside you the entire time. It doesn't matter how many souls you lose, because you're continuously improving. The souls might give you a slight hp benefit or allow you to equip a nice piece of gear, but learning how to play the game well will do far more. Dark Souls games kinda trick you there, because the soul drop on death pushes you to keep trying for the area that got you killed. Which is going to push you out of your comfort zone and help you learn. The actual recovery (or not) of the souls is irrelevant, especially considering how many extremely powerful weapons are usable with base starting stats or just a couple points from base.

My favorite weapon in all of Dark Souls 1 is the Longsword. Drops from starting enemies and you can even spawn with it on one of the origins. I still think it's one of the best weapons in the game overall (but there are many "best weapons" in dark souls). Saw Spear and Saw Cleaver are amazingly strong in Bloodborne as well. Fromsoft always do a good job providing solid early weapons for players to learn the game and its mechanics.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by FinalBaton »

guigui wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 12:57 pm
Always great seeing new players enjoying the series, it is so rare nowadays that it has become so popular.

You're definitely seeing why those games are great, and the first time is the best. So please keep enjoying and keep us updated on your progress.
Thanks Guigui! And I will. I am thoroughly savouring the experience. I'm really exploring that world and taking it slow. This is one of my very favourite gaming experiences ever, for sure.

Just got a low-input-lag OLED TV as well, and the game looks gorgeous to me.
Last edited by FinalBaton on Mon Jun 03, 2024 3:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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FinalBaton
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by FinalBaton »

Sima Tuna wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 1:24 pm You can always look up where to go if you get lost, but other than that, stay as blind as possible. Part of the fun of these games is shaving hours off your time on subsequent playthroughs when you have mastered the systems and know where everything is. Dark Souls is a good contemporary example of the arcade philosophy that progress is never lost... Because the progress was inside you the entire time. It doesn't matter how many souls you lose, because you're continuously improving. The souls might give you a slight hp benefit or allow you to equip a nice piece of gear, but learning how to play the game well will do far more. Dark Souls games kinda trick you there, because the soul drop on death pushes you to keep trying for the area that got you killed. Which is going to push you out of your comfort zone and help you learn. The actual recovery (or not) of the souls is irrelevant, especially considering how many extremely powerful weapons are usable with base starting stats or just a couple points from base.

My favorite weapon in all of Dark Souls 1 is the Longsword. Drops from starting enemies and you can even spawn with it on one of the origins. I still think it's one of the best weapons in the game overall (but there are many "best weapons" in dark souls). Saw Spear and Saw Cleaver are amazingly strong in Bloodborne as well. Fromsoft always do a good job providing solid early weapons for players to learn the game and its mechanics.
Indeed I am staying blind as much as possible.

And I really don't care about loosing lots of souls now, and taking risks. That's the main difference with my first and only brush with the series (playing DeS 4 years ago up until mid point (so I'm still very new to the series)). Once I got in that mindset, it all became more encouraging, the penalty of death was removed. And fear got replaced by BRAVOUR ; _ ;7 and determination filled my soul.

I rock the Zweihander most of the time. And use a Divine Great Club for the catacombs. But kinda similar to you with the longsword; I like using the Claymore sometimes, since it's relatively quick on thrusts. And allows to get more hits in.

(I actually found the Zweihander very early; exploring the Graveyard was one of the very first things I did upon being dropped by the crow. And even though I got my ass thoroughly kicked by the giant skeletons; I managed to snag the Zweihander hehehe. My curiosity and bravery definitely paid off here (and I didn't know before hand that it was there; I was just exploring, bouncing around. What a find!)

Focused early on a strenght build so it wasn't long before I could use that weapon).
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

Claymore is a very optimal weapon for many builds (mostly Quality and Quality combination builds). It's much faster than it should be for the damage it does, as you've noticed. I remember back in the day when DS1 was new, people used to go nuts over the Drake Sword. Claymore can get very close to Drake Sword/Dark Knight Sword stats with just a little forging, it's much easier to get and it has a better moveset.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by FinalBaton »

Yeah Claymore's moveset is awesome. That weapon's got a very enticing balance of speed and damage.

I have that Dark Knight Sword actually. And while it does a lot of damage, i barely use it since I don't love it's moveset; It's R2 is slower than the Zwei, and I feel like it exposes me too much, haha (I get rekt when I miss that first swing). So I go with Zwei even though it's less powerful.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Claymore's access to a relately good stab attack as well as wide slashes makes it very useful. I also really like the Bastard Sword you can buy from Andre of Astora, similar moveset and slightly higher base damage. If you like the Claymore but want to have alternate element infusions to use, buying Bastard Swords is the way to go.

16 Strength also happens to be the minimum to onehand several useful weapons including two of the best shields in the game, several polearms, and the Bastard Sword/Claymore.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by FinalBaton »

I'll keep the Bastard sword in mind if I ever need to ascend a similar sword! Thanks Roo.
BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 2:44 pm Claymore's access to a relately good stab attack as well as wide slashes makes it very useful. I also really like the Bastard Sword you can buy from Andre of Astora, similar moveset and slightly higher base damage. If you like the Claymore but want to have alternate element infusions to use, buying Bastard Swords is the way to go.

Well the Tomb of the Giants is behind me. I had previously progressed pretty far into it, but now that I have the Lordvessel I went past the orange fog door.

That area was a challenge for sure but not as terrible as I expected considering the bitching I've seen online at cursory glance. That's probably because I'm very patient and don't mind dying again and again to learn enemy placement and patterns (enemy placement in particular is an issue here due to the darkness).

The room before the boss was a fun romp : despite being a terrifyng prospect, I ran and bulldozed a path through the fireball shooting fiends, haha. Not killing all of them, only the necessary ones to reach the door, so say half. I have good fire protection with this kit (and that's without the fireplate ring) so it was a viable strategy. The first time I was WAY more cautious, and explored the whole room. But upon seeing that they respawn... I knew I had to find a quick path trough.

Nito fight went well, it took me 3 or 4 tries (which for me in this game is good). I realized after 1 or 2 tries that when far from him, he uses that spike coming out of the ground nonstop, so you gotta stay close. Also quickly realized that killing the smaller enemies is a pointless endeavor and is detrimental to success, it just never ends if you start doing this... and his blast attack wipes them out anyway. I didn't learn the exact timing of his attacks, gotta be honest I only dodged like half of them, and just went offence mad and managed to vanquish him, and that was risky and ended up being a close fight.

Now off to another Lord Soul. Still don't know which one I'll go to next. I should note that I've ventured already in Lower New Londo, deep enough the unlock the shortcut elevator and snag the Very Large Ember. But I bolted out and decided to go for the 3 orange fog doors first instead. Don't know why I went this way, just my hunch, but maybe that's not the optimal path.
Or is it. We'll see.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 2:44 pm Claymore's access to a relately good stab attack as well as wide slashes makes it very useful. I also really like the Bastard Sword you can buy from Andre of Astora, similar moveset and slightly higher base damage. If you like the Claymore but want to have alternate element infusions to use, buying Bastard Swords is the way to go.

16 Strength also happens to be the minimum to onehand several useful weapons including two of the best shields in the game, several polearms, and the Bastard Sword/Claymore.
Yeah, 16 is a break point on strength where you gain access to a lot of cool shit. I never liked the Bastard Sword as much as Claymore, because the Bastard's r2 is slower. Piercing attacks are useful sometimes too. More so in Bloodborne than in DS1, but it can still be helpful if one of your moves does a stabby.

But anyway, what I was going to say about 16 strength is one of my favorite builds is quality/something else. Usually faith. So I'll take strength to 16 early and then faith to 14. You get a Claymore, Astora's Straight Sword (which has just the BEST acronym) a nice shield and the base heal spell. Basic heal is nice because it significantly stretches out your estus flasks. But I think 14 is enough faith to use Homeward, which would also invalidate the Homeward Bone item. From that point, it's up to you to either build out Quality, Attunement or Faith depending upon what you want.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by FinalBaton »

As for my build : I put the vast majority of my points in Strength and Endurance.

I'm literally him, frfr
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

I prefer the Bastard Sword and its bigger, nastier upgrade, the Man Serpent Sword over Claymore, and that's mostly cuz I like the overhead slam hitbox. My weapon preferences tend to be towards generous hitboxes, as I find there's enough enemies that are hard to hit with the stabs (i.e. the stab goes right under them or their legs) that having a tall overhead slam on 1H is nice. Claymore's wide slashes still work fine in that case though or you can 2H it.

A better example of a restrictive weapon is the Halberd. Low stat reqs, insane damage, speed, and range for a weapon that hits so hard. Amazingly useful weapon for quick pokes when it works, but anything tall and leggy or floaty like ghosts / 4k and the pokes go under them sometimes, rendering it agonizing to use. Prefer Scythe / Gargoyle Halberd, or Iaito / Uchi.

Congrats on beating Tomb of the Giants! It's subject to complaints by people who go in, touch the bonfire, then immediately suffer the consequences of being stuck there until they walk out. :P I don't think the area's too nasty either, but if your only light source is the Skull Lantern then it's a chore to deal with. Bringing one of the other light sources that don't require a hand slot to use and work in combat make it far more painless (when you know about them). DS is the kind of game where you're expected to suffer a bit on your first playthrough until you know the tricks!
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by FinalBaton »

I only had the Skull Lantern indeed haha.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Austin »

When I first played Dark Souls, I went through Tomb of the Giants without any light whatsoever. It was the worst thing. The lantern helps a ton. Once I figured out I could use that (and had learned the route a bit better), it wasn't so bad. On my most recent playthrough a few months back, I finally got the Sunlight Maggot and wow, life was made way easier.

Regardless of how much light I have however.. F*ck those huge skeleton dog things. Some of the worst enemies in the entire series.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

The dogs are a nuisance for sure. Not quite as bad as figuring out a light source that isn't a lantern, but rather annoying. They're trivialized by either heavily investing in Pyromancy until you one-shot them from outside their low aggro radius, or using a greatshield to make their attacks bounce off you and far more open for retaliation.

The 16 Strength Eagle Shield is usable by nearly any build aside from a no levelling build and happens to have one of the best stability stats when maxed out too. Finding it may be tricky though. Otherwise I swear by it as arguably the best general purpose, readily usable shield.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Exciting to see a first playthrough of this game in 2024. Ahhhh to go back in fresh, it would be incredible.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by guigui »

Steamflogger Boss wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:19 am Exciting to see a first playthrough of this game in 2024. Ahhhh to go back in fresh, it would be incredible.
Maybe if you let enough time pass by w/o playing the game, another run could feel like new ? I recently did Elden Ring blind after about 4 years without Soul's From stuff, gave me a little sensation of virginity again !
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Austin »

Speaking of Elden Ring, it looks like consoles are getting a physical version that includes Shadow of the Erdtree… for $80. :shock:
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Samildanach »

Austin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:18 pm Speaking of Elden Ring, it looks like consoles are getting a physical version that includes Shadow of the Erdtree… for $80. :shock:
I'm pretty sure the dlc is just a code in the box rather than on disc unlike previous From software 'complete' editions. A bit disappointing if I have not got this wrong.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by FinalBaton »

Samildanach wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:55 pm I'm pretty sure the dlc is just a code in the box rather than on disc unlike previous From software 'complete' editions. A bit disappointing if I have not got this wrong.
This is what I understand of it as well. Unless I'm misunderstanding or a new disc just came out. But pretty sure the DLC is not on disc at the moment. Which sucks (I'm waiting for a complete-on-disc edition to buy the game)
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Austin »

FinalBaton wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:56 pm
Samildanach wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:55 pm I'm pretty sure the dlc is just a code in the box rather than on disc unlike previous From software 'complete' editions. A bit disappointing if I have not got this wrong.
This is what I understand of it as well. Unless I'm misunderstanding or a new disc just came out. But pretty sure the DLC is not on disc at the moment. Which sucks (I'm waiting for a complete-on-disc edition to buy the game)
The physical version is coming out the same day as the DLC launches, but according to the front of the box it looks like the expansion will indeed be provided via a voucher code.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

Feelsbadman. There's still no physical version (nor ever will be) of Borderlands 2 on Switch. You can get a physical disc on other platforms, such as xbox 360, but not on the portable. All used copies of Borderlands sold online for switch contain only BL1. :lol:

The glorious dystopic future.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Austin »

No comments on the ER expansion yet? Is this because people are currently locked in and getting their asses handed to them? Or are you like me where you basically have to play through the game again just to get to the new content? :lol:

I picked up the expansion on Series X and expected to be able to jump right in with a character I finished the game with back in January. Naturally, my dumb-ass forgot I started NG+ back then and so I have to go through the game again. At least it’ll only be 10 hours of play to get there as opposed to 30+.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Necronopticous »

Working on a fresh playthrough. Haven’t quite made it to the DLC yet but will report in later on!
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by ryu »

I don't feel much like playing this DLC. Elden Ring takes way too long to complete anyways, is there really a need to make them game even larger?

And the DLC's gimmick mechanic makes it sound very unappealing to me
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

I decided to take the plunge and go for an SL1 run in Dark Souls. The hard part is remembering to hoard all the souls and not immediately spend them at bonfires. >w>; Only rule is no levelling, otherwise everything's on the table, though I'm steering clear of glitches or summons I think. Pyromancy's handy early on, though stocking up on firebombs and throwing knives is also handy. Knives area quick and easy way to kill those pesky mosquitos in Blighttown. Killed Taurus Demon uneventfully, made it to Andre, ran down to Blighttown, grabbing some armor sets on the way. Elite Knight helm looks great, weighs too damn much though. Got to Blighttown, beat up Maneater "Got No Poise" Mildred by climbing the ladder back up to the spinny contraption, smacking her, and laughing when she rolls off for fall damage. Dodged around cragspiders until I could get up to the ledge far under the Wanderer set, poison dart guy eventually fell off (he moves forward a bit each time he shoots) and got ganked. Got the Cloranthy Ring, went to Ash Lake cuz it's cool, discovered the hydra won't leap over the sand if you chill out a bit past the log until it gets bored, visited dragonbro, got dragony because it's cool and doesn't weigh anything.

Leeches were kind enough to gimme some green Titanite shards so creating a Magic +5 or Fire +5 weapon early on's now an option. Magic +5 will let me go to Enchanted if I nab the ember and can craft one prior to the Queelag fight, giving me a rather early damage boost. :3

So, question time for the pros!

• Is two handing the Eagle Shield potentially useful? Pyromancer without levels can just barely use it.

• Should I aim for fast rolling at all times with my low stamina? With Heater Shield, dragon head, I can use the Wanderer set which looks rad, but weighs more than the ninja or pyro sets. The Elite Knight helm is also cool but instantly put me into mid roll territory which I assumed was bad news.

• What weapon do you use for this? Grinding out for a Jagged Ghost Blade's an option, it has stupefyingly low stat requirements and very high damage with a bleed mod. The good ol' nailbat is slow and heavy, so forces midrolling until I get the FAP ring... Dagger's a bit weak but I like how fast it is. Hand Axe is nice and fast, similar to a short sword, I'm leaning towards it I think as I don't like the animation the nailbat and club have if it misses.

• Are there any particularly noteworthy armor sets for SL1 I should be aware of? I'm currently just aiming for low weight, enchantable, and doesn't make me look like a dirty hobo.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Austin »

On SL1, firebombs and knives are stupidly useful! I ended up playing the long range game with them at several points. Using a mix of those and pyromancy, much of the run really isn’t too bad.

Jagged Ghost Blade is a pretty good idea. On my last run it dropped right away and it made things a lot easier.

I generally go light on equipment to fast roll. Armor doesn’t do a ton in DS1 anyway (enemies still cut through you like butter), so it’s best IMO to rely on rolling.

If you can get good at parries, it’s extremely handy throughout the run. I think I was able to equip the Grass Crest shield for that purpose, while giving me its stamina recovery boost in the process.

Also, knowing what bosses are weak to what. I.e., the Taurus demon getting wrecked via Gold Pine Resin, etc.
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

I don't think I like the Grass Cress shield much honestly; the stamina boost from the Chloranthy Ring is significantly faster and I pretty much have that on full time with a better shield.

DS1 SL1 progress:
Spoiler
Being able to breathe fire kills a number of enemies hilariously fast and largely has obsoleted firebombs and my very slow and weak pyromancy. Climbed Blighttown, grabbed the Eagle Shield, discovered I can still use bows for aggro, Eagle Shield can't deflect when 2 handing it without meeting the stat requirements, but it still has enormous deflection and means I can reliably block very heavy hitting attacks with my low stamina. Handy for if I'm on precarious footing and don't want to risk dodging. Two-handing the Heater Shield also reduces the stamina cost for blocking a fair bit, and lets me fast-roll, so that's an alternate option for fights where firebreath or pyromancy (in left hand) are my go to.

Went to New Londo Ruins, ghosts didn't drop a dagger, boo. Got the Fire Keeper's Soul, you can actually step out a short way onto the walkway to spawn all 3 ghosts then deal with them from afar which is much easier than running out and being ambushed. Spent the 40000 souls or so I had on upgrading and buying the Crest of Artorias, took my Hand Axe to +3 Magic, Heater Shield to +5, Eagle Shield to +2, Wanderer set hands and legs to +2s and +6 for the armor.

Took out the Gargoyles by chopping them and firebreathing them. One-handing the Heater Shield in retrospect wasn't the best idea, they have a few weak attacks, but they've got at least two swings with longer windup that will take 70% or so from your stamina, probably safer to two-hand it and breathe fire or toss bombs at them.

Next stop is Darkroot Garden. Stone set might come in handy for the Capra Demon to try and simply poise/tank the hits with Eagle Shield while dealing with the dogs. The flippy ring would also be nice to have, and getting the ember will let me up my axe to +2 or 3 Enchanted depending on how many more Blue Shards I can get from the golems by the hydra. That or I just tough out Quelaag with a weaker axe. :P
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by MJR »

Bought ps5 from my friend, and got myself Demons Souls remake. Enjoying it a lot, and much easier than it was back in the day, when I bought it brand new for PS3 just when it had been first released in europe (that was my first From Software experience).

But. I had totally forgot how to equip arrows in inventory. I ran through 1-1 and 1-2 with my hunter with no shooting after I had wasted my initial arrows. Had to google how to do it. Duh..
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Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Sima Tuna »

I decided to do a themed run in Dark Souls 1. Conan the Barbarian.

Rules:

No magic of any kind. Conan hates magic.
No pyromancy. Might make an exception for Power Within if there's a reasonable argument why it's not actually magic.
No shields of any kind and no shields-on-the-back meta either.
The only armor sets allowable must be sets that look like something Conan would wear. No knight armors.
Try to avoid running around hollow. Conan's muscles must be full and rippling at all times. Beef jerky man isn't sexy.
No magic or divine enchanted weapons.
Shirtless is preferred. Some exceptions made if I find an armor or hat that looks very Conan-appropriate.
No fat rolling-Conan is always depicted as moving super fast in the novels. I really should ban mid rolling too, but we'll see.

Stats will be mostly split on hp, endurance, strength and maybe some dexterity. Conan is quick in the novels. Still probably going to focus on a strength build.

All reasonable weapons (aka realistic, non-magical swords, axes, clubs, daggers) are allowed. I'll probably build around the Bastard Sword and Claymore, but I might not.

This build is already harder than most previous ones I've tried. I actually fucked up and died to Taurus Demon, somehow. :D Not having any shield, magic or much armor changes the way you play. I went with Bandit start. I don't think there's a better option. The pants and shoes I kept on. Tossed the shirt and hat. Went Battle Axe until I could buy a Club, then Club until Claymore. One of the black knights did drop his Sword, so that's an option too. I was thinking I'll probably buy the Bastard Sword from Andre and then compare movesets on all three against relative stat requirements.

It's been a fun run so far. I don't have any restrictions on deaths, etc. I always start every new character with a couple death runs to grab a few items near Firelink, and I didn't feel like changing that strategy. My general attitude on those death runs is I take Homeward Bones with me and I try to bone home instead of die if I can. I don't allow myself more than one or two fuckups before I stop that particular death run and move on. So I'll give myself 1 or so attempts at nabbing dragon crest, bandit set (not needed this time,) flask upgrade, graveyard goodies etc before I move on. I started with master key because Conan is a fucking thief. None of the other boons made any sense.

I thought about setting up a themed run for Red Sonja as well, but the more I looked up about the character, it seemed there would be very little materially interesting about her gear or play style compared to a standard dark souls run.
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Lander
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
Location: Area 1 Mostly

Re: From Software 'n such

Post by Lander »

Fun conceit AND standing on ceremony, good stuff :mrgreen: plenty of mighty Forward R2s, I hope.

I did a Slaine the Celtic Barbarian run for my first Elden Ring char back when that came out, though there was a fair bit of ehh this is just about justifiable as an excuse to play with the new toys.
Though Slaine is pretty flexible as barbarian fiction goes; starts off traditional, dips into rubbish Judge Dredd-adjacent futurism for a season (Leyser guns, you know, like Leylines! *facepalm*), then gets its shit together for the heavily pagan Mad God arc and onward, after which you can justify a great many weird things.

Major takeaways were that A. There are very few good double-headed axes in Elden Ring, B. It's missing a singular little shitheel goblin summon to act as a sidekick stand-in and C. Finding a workable analogue for this Cronenberg / Cu Chulainn berserker shit is quite difficult.
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