Learning Japanese

[broken harbour]

3 days in and surprisingly I've already picked up a couple phrases and can identify a couple hiragana just by looking at them.

One thing I find annoying, is that most resources I've been using so far (YesJapan, Japanese Pod 101, etc) are good at explaining the rules of something, like say the number system, but then they don't give tell you why the rule exists.

For instance.

The number seven = 'schichi'

But seventy = 'nanajuu' not 'schichijuu'

And why is 800 'happyaku' instead of 'Hachi hyaku?'


I'm sure there's a good reason, but there's no explanation as to why it's like that. Maybe I'm weird, but I find it easier to remember rules if I know the reasoning behind it.

[cicada88]

There are 2 words for seven.... SHICHI and NANA

They can be used interchangeably when counting single digits.

I honestly don't know for sure why but it probably has to do with one coming from the Chinese number system and one being native Japanese and "shi" meaning death in Japanese.

It's the same for 4 which can be either SHI or YON

Zero can be either REI or ZERO.



As for the hapyakku etc, it's just a contraction of sorts. It's just less of a tongue twister / easier to say.

[Skykid]

There are 2 words for seven.... SHICHI and NANA

They can be used interchangeably when counting single digits.

I honestly don't know for sure why but it probably has to do with one coming from the Chinese number system and one being native Japanese and "shi" meaning death in Japanese.

Very similar to die (or "to die") in Chinese: "sĭ"

Totally hilarious when saying "Cheers" while drinking, since Chinese people tend to interpret the sound 'qu sĭ' (phonetically) as "Chu Zhi" which sounds like "go and die".

Similarities abound of course, since pretty much all Asian languages are forked from Chinese. It's weird how much Vietnamese they can understand on the fly, and even the odd Thai phrase.

@broken harbour

Some things will drive you nuts I'm sure, but it's all about putting it in perspective. I'm always complaining why there are several words to say the same thing, which do I use? You want it to be clear cut so it's easier to remember, unfortunately language isn't made this way. So it helps to remind oneself that in English we have a ton of words spelt the same way, written the same way, and spoken the same way, but all with multiple meanings.

For example (out of thin air): Running.

"I feel like running"

"My nose is running"

"He's running for mayor"

I agree numbers with multiple words is a completely unnecessary pain in the ass though.

[NTSC-J]

The number seven = 'schichi'

But seventy = 'nanajuu' not 'schichijuu'

And why is 800 'happyaku' instead of 'Hachi hyaku?'

I'm sure there's a good reason, but there's no explanation as to why it's like that. Maybe I'm weird, but I find it easier to remember rules if I know the reasoning behind it.

Both situations have to do with what's easier to say. "Hachi hyaku" is a mouthful and "nana" is less confusing than "shichi" in most situations so you hear it more often ("shichi" sounds like "ichi").

My wife is a "nana" supporter and uses it in situations where others might go with "shichi" to avoid confusion.

[MintyTheCat]

Yes, the Japanese have made clear distinctions between things and tend to 'bolt on' systems - hiragana being derived and katakana being used for foreign and modern words and romanji being borrowed from our English alphabet. Even the kanji themselves were borrowed from Chinese and in turn have a Japanese reading.

With the case of rei and zero: the zero is the anglicised form.

The colour white and the number four all have connotations associated with death.
During kendo they always counted with shi I found.
The number four actually throughout the Orient is associated with death but 8 is associated with wealth and luck (if I remember correctly).

I often find that ka/i/u/e/o would be interchanged with ga/i/u/e/o and indeed there were changes according to region and dialect.

There are many plays on numbers and words to be found too.
A common example:

the Japanese Mafia - yakuza: yattsu, kyu, san: 8-9-3 is said to be an unlucky hand in a card game that they play.

We have similar things to a degree if you understand Greek, Latin and germanic roots in English, German, Dutch and French words but not to the same extent and not at all with number associations. If you understand these roots you can actually read them from first-principles as a sort of meta. kanji works as a kind of semantic graphic analogue to the words formed using the english alphabet but the principles are the same and anyone who has an understanding of Latin, Greek and germanic roots has a clear advantage when dealing with many European languages.

[GaijinPunch]

Yes, the Japanese have made clear distinctions between things and tend to 'bolt on' systems - hiragana being derived and katakana being used for foreign and modern words and romanji being borrowed from our English alphabet. Even the kanji themselves were borrowed from Chinese and in turn have a Japanese reading.

With the case of rei and zero: the zero is the anglicised form.

The colour white and the number four all have connotations associated with death.
During kendo they always counted with shi I found.
The number four actually throughout the Orient is associated with death but 8 is associated with wealth and luck (if I remember correctly).

I often find that ka/i/u/e/o would be interchanged with ga/i/u/e/o and indeed there were changes according to region and dialect.

There are many plays on numbers and words to be found too.
A common example:

the Japanese Mafia - yakuza: yattsu, kyu, san: 8-9-3 is said to be an unlucky hand in a card game that they play.

We have similar things to a degree if you understand Greek, Latin and germanic roots in English, German, Dutch and French words but not to the same extent and not at all with number associations. If you understand these roots you can actually read them from first-principles as a sort of meta. kanji works as a kind of semantic graphic analogue to the words formed using the english alphabet but the principles are the same and anyone who has an understanding of Latin, Greek and germanic roots has a clear advantage when dealing with many European languages.

romaji

[NTSC-J]

romanji

[hanasu]

You can get by pretty well with a lot of set phrases and a few months of practice. However you will not be able learn how to read well, and that's a real pain in the ass if you're trying to find your way around.

[mastermx]

Sometimes the methods aren't as important as the perseverance. Put enough time into something, and results would be had. When it comes to language acquisition the state of mind of the learner is paramount to his/her success.

Proof is in the pudding. I stuck to it. Now I know japanese pretty decently. I've had convos with natives who were utterly shocked I've never actually been to japan. I'm not saying I don't make mistakes, I probably do, but I am aware of them when they happen. By far my biggest desire was learning to read with ease, and I tried to focus on that more than anything. I can pick up any jrpg and just play. Especially if furigana is available. But my kanji knowledge isn't so bad tbh. (I would reccomend the ds game "250 Mannin no Kanken Premium" to intermediates)

Visual novels are probably the best learning tool I have used.

I still read japanese everyday to keep myself fresh and to keep learning. I do about an hour to two hours a day, reading topics or things that I find fun or interesting.(You could probably wank your way to fluency with erotica
)

Japanese being my 3rd language. It has given me immense confidence. Just like shmups, what I thought was an insurmountable task becomes surmountable through pure grit and gitgud attitude. Ofcourse I want to keep getting better and better. But it's good that my hobbies are tied in with it, because the more I gitgud at japanese, the more I can import any game i want haha. No need for patches or fan translations, I used to scour rom hacks and follow translation groups. checking news about some snes rom I've never tried. I haven't thought about those things in such a long time, I forgot they existed. What I've realized, is that no translation will ever capture the essence of a thing being said, because sometimes words carry so much culture with them, it's impossible to just isolate expressions and give an exact equal meaning. Sometimes translations do an amazing job, but I would rather consume media understanding less, while getting the original experience tbh. I feel like this applies to me with all languages and hobbies. There is an eclectism I feel that drove me to down this path lol. You need to be really open minded to delve and comprehend other cultures, but it truly broadens the mind.

Being FGC and a Shmupper helps in aquiring japanese. Japanese people I speak to tell me the arcade scene is still alive in japan. I plan to check out some arcades one day. I feel like Arcades are truly dead in the UK right now, what we have here are currently similar to Lan centres. With PCs and consoles. But it's just not the same... I need me that dirty SOR2 feel to my surroundings to feel alive. The curses of being a 90s kid.

TlDR: If anyone here likes anime, video games or manga. You will probably continue to like these things in 20 years time, so i would highly recommend japanese as a hobby for my fellow weebs.

[RiMaDe]

I started it twice and quit both times. Japanese is difficult without a teacher.

[Arino]

Probably still easy compared to Cantonese where you have to keep all the tones in mind. Japanese is just like English in the way that you can pronounce a word in almost any way and it's still correct. If you know what I mean.

[GaijinPunch]

Probably still easy compared to Cantonese where you have to keep all the tones in mind. Japanese is just like English in the way that you can pronounce a word in almost any way and it's still correct. If you know what I mean.

Japanese pronunciation is pretty strict if you're just looking at the phonetics (forget Kanji for the moment) which is the polar opposite of English which requires context to know the pronunciation. Ironically I think you get away w/ a lot more in English, maybe b/c of this context requirement. Japanese ears are not very forgiving when a dialogue is strayed away from, and that includes swapping around a syllable or two, of course by accident. Perhaps a lack of culture of, still, having a relatively small population trying to learn your language and butchering it (But that's just my take).

I don't know enough about Chinese or its dialects and tones, but I have heard from many (that know both) the grammar of Chinese is much less of an uphill battle than Japanese. Fuck those tones though. Not for me.

FWIW, the US Government classifies them (Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese) as the same degree of difficulty for native English speakers, requiring roughly the same amount of hours to get a grasp of.

[Arino]

Probably still easy compared to Cantonese where you have to keep all the tones in mind. Japanese is just like English in the way that you can pronounce a word in almost any way and it's still correct. If you know what I mean.

Japanese pronunciation is pretty strict if you're just looking at the phonetics (forget Kanji for the moment) which is the polar opposite of English which requires context to know the pronunciation. Ironically I think you get away w/ a lot more in English, maybe b/c of this context requirement. Japanese ears are not very forgiving when a dialogue is strayed away from, and that includes swapping around a syllable or two, of course by accident. Perhaps a lack of culture of, still, having a relatively small population trying to learn your language and butchering it (But that's just my take).

I don't know enough about Chinese or its dialects and tones, but I have heard from many (that know both) the grammar of Chinese is much less of an uphill battle than Japanese. Fuck those tones though. Not for me.

FWIW, the US Government classifies them (Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese) as the same degree of difficulty for native English speakers, requiring roughly the same amount of hours to get a grasp of.

In Japanese it is rather easy to get the pronunciation right because there are no different tones. Just like in English. Neither English nor Japanese are tonal languages. But in Cantonese you have to get the tones right. Every single word is like a "short song" or melody with highs and lows. If you change the height of these tones, nobody will understand you. The same word but with a different tone can also change the meaning of the word you were trying to say.

I wouldn't rely on the judgement of the US government in any regard.

[GaijinPunch]

In Japanese it is rather easy to get the pronunciation right because there are no different tones. Just like in English.

They are not tonal, but they are far from the same. Say out loud the word "read" w/o it being in a sentence. With the phonetic scripts, Japanese is a "say what you see" language. There is no such thing as a spelling bee in Japanese, b/c the sound matches the phonetic piece. Kanji blows this out of the water in all kinds of ways, but that's beside the point.

I do agree w/ you. Japanese pronunciation is the easiest thing about it. It's far closer to Spanish in pronunciation and intonation though. But I don't think it's necessarily due to lack of tones. Look at what the fuck is going on w/ Eastern European and Scandinavian languages. No tones, and no prayer of ever pronouncing them right.

I wouldn't rely on the judgement of the US government in any regard.

Yeah, they only have data on the people they've trained in all of these languages for espionage.

[vol.2]

They are not tonal, but they are far from the same. Say out loud the word "read" w/o it being in a sentence. With the phonetic scripts, Japanese is a "say what you see" language. There is no such thing as a spelling bee in Japanese, b/c the sound matches the phonetic piece. Kanji blows this out of the water in all kinds of ways, but that's beside the point.

Totally. I can't tell you how many times Japanese people would look at me with a blank expression when I thought I was saying something the correct way. The hardest thing was always the long vowel sounds, and the multiple vowel sounds. The area of Tokyo called "Ueno" comes to mind. And exactly how and when to add pauses into words when you get a double consonant can be tricky

Also, just because the grammar doesn't have tonal shifts, doesn't mean people don't do it. A lot of people slur their words together or otherwise have pretty intense accents in Japan, and just knowing how something is supposed to be pronounced, doesn't mean you're going to understand everyone. And those tonal shifts do have connotative meaning, and are part of their slang language.

[scrilla4rella]

Japanese pronunciation is pretty strict if you're just looking at the phonetics (forget Kanji for the moment) which is the polar opposite of English which requires context to know the pronunciation. Ironically I think you get away w/ a lot more in English, maybe b/c of this context requirement. Japanese ears are not very forgiving when a dialogue is strayed away from, and that includes swapping around a syllable or two, of course by accident. Perhaps a lack of culture of, still, having a relatively small population trying to learn your language and butchering it (But that's just my take).

I never thought about that much but it's very true in my experience. I remember getting frustrated when I would get the intonation or long vowel sound wrong on a katakana word originally from English and all of the sudden people were like wtf are you talking about?!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Recently took a trip to Japan with friends. I was the only one who hadn't done any formal studying whereas the others were actively doing Duolingo lessons. I can't really read hiragana or katakana, but in terms of speaking, I ended up being by far the most fluent speaker in the group somehow, mainly through what I'd absorbed through playing Japanese PS2 rpgs and anime. Go figure.

I was also the only one who already was fluent in two languages (English and French) so I suspect that seemed to help me pick up the pronunciation of a third language more easily.

I've heard of several stories of people learning English through watching television so I suspect the same is true of Japanese. You can pick up a TON of useful stock phrases by simply watching Japanese television, be it anime or drama, and figure out pronunciation as well. Formal lessons alone I think aren't enough; you also have to do some Japanese media immersion to get a proper feel for the language. tl;dr, be a proper otaku and watch a whole lot of subtitled anime, more modern slice-of-life stuff tends to have more relevant language to learn from. You absolutely cannot learn Japanese alone through anime though, to become actually fluent rather than just having enough grasp to fumble through ordering at a restaurant takes proper studying.

As far as learning to read Japanese, there's some RPGs like the Mother series that have no kanji, designed to be easy to read basically, maybe steer towards those (or go for ones with furigana over the kanji at least). I can't really provide any meaningful advice on this. ^^;

If you stick near major cities and touristy areas, they tend to speak enough English to muddle through conversations too. If you go more rural, where it's more interesting honestly, then you'll need more Japanese to get by. I really enjoyed Kyoto, Hakone, and Takayama. A-Cho arcade in Kyoto was great for shmups. Tokyo was less enjoyable, amazing arcades but the Akihabara district with all the maid cafe advertising on the street felt scummy, a bit like Las Vegas. Japan takes English as a second language a lot more seriously than Canada takes French for instance and signage for major transportation services often has English as well as Chinese and Korean instructions.

Watching a Japanese 30 something salaryman casually sit down and ura loop clear Daifukkatsu was quite enjoyable.

[vol.2]

You can pick up a TON of useful stock phrases by simply watching Japanese television, be it anime or drama, and figure out pronunciation as well. Formal lessons alone I think aren't enough; you also have to do some Japanese media immersion to get a proper feel for the language.

I learned more spoken from watching Japanese game shows than I ever did from classes or apps. In order to learn any writing stuff though, I had to do lessons. Learning speech first was definitely helpful as it gives you an anchor for the grammar, which is IMHO the hardest part