Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Sumez]

Eh, there's no lack of methods for producing art that don't involve drawing it by hand. And we're rapidly moving into an era where that distinction is going to become even more pronounced

But I digress - I agree, the complaint of mainstream video game development striving for "boring realism" was a much more prominent issue twenty years ago than it is now. I'm seeing much more varied approaches nowadays, even among relativity high profile titles!

[neorichieb1971]

We have reached a point in tech where because realism is possible, that is the only thing the industry strives for. When everything looks the same, feels the same, plays the same, you have no identity anymore.

That must be why seemingly every other game includes the terms "pixel art" or "hand drawn"* in it's hype copy, as of late.

*this one especially elicits douche chills. "Hand drawn" as opposed to what? Being drawn by a bulldozer?

Are those terms used in AAA titles? Doubt it. Mainstream is where the buzz is, where that is I don't know as I haven't felt it since the PS2 era.

Eh, there's no lack of methods for producing art that don't involve drawing it by hand. And we're rapidly moving into an era where that distinction is going to become even more pronounced

But I digress - I agree, the complaint of mainstream video game development striving for "boring realism" was a much more prominent issue twenty years ago than it is now. I'm seeing much more varied approaches nowadays, even among relativity high profile titles!

The problem is that we have arrived at realism, not on the journey there. The whole "OMG, look at the graphics" thing is not a selling point anymore.

[Steven]

I want bulldozer-drawn games now. That would be cool.

[Bassa-Bassa]

We have reached a point in tech where because realism is possible, that is the only thing the industry strives for. When everything looks the same, feels the same, plays the same, you have no identity anymore.

That must be why seemingly every other game includes the terms "pixel art" or "hand drawn"* in it's hype copy, as of late.

*this one especially elicits douche chills. "Hand drawn" as opposed to what? Being drawn by a bulldozer?

As opposed to machine-drawn. It's obviously referring to the animation process.

[Air Master Burst]

So yeah, shmups might be niche, but the industry as a whole has lost its way as its stuck somewhere between upping the graphics to AAA standard but churning out same-o same-o all the time, and not wanting to do original or abstract games because they don't sell.

This was always the industry's way. Apparently you're too young to remember how there were like 50 trash platformers for every good one on the NES, or how many garbage tier SF2 clones got pushed out into arcades.

And don't even get me started on the SNES belt scroller catalogue.

[Lemnear]

14 years and 47 pages later and we're still niche.

Maybe it's time we, the community, put in some effort. How about we start knocking on doors like Jehova's Witnesses?
Have you, Sir, heard of DoDonPachi?
We wonder if you have a few minutes to discuss the chaining system?

Other than that, I still believe a battley royale game like Tetris 99 could be a big gateway to shmup scoring.

But isn't that exactly what Hudson did between 1985-1992 with Caravan Shooter Festival?
Since i discovered this thing i can't do without the Summer-Arcade combination...looks so natural !!!

Have you, Sir, heard of our Lord and Saviour DoDonPachi? (maybe it works better)

[m.sniffles.esq]

As opposed to machine-drawn. It's obviously referring to the animation process.

They have analog, mechanical, flip-book video games now??
Okay, that gets my attention.

But seriously... how is this face:

Created?

I didn't move the cursor over to the "smiles" section with my mind. Nor did I build a machine to roll the trackball right and press the left button.
In fact, one could say it was created with my... y'know.

"System 11: Now with Hand Drawn Emojiz!!"

[Bassa-Bassa]

Don't you really know how animation is created? You draw an object -it doesn't matter the tool you use to do it-, that's called a frame. You then want that same object with whichever visible change, that would be frame no. 2. To achieve that you can either, draw it yourself again, or make a software try to do it for you - literally. The first method is called "hand-drawn animation", the second is called "machine/computer-drawn animation".

It wasn't that hard, was it?

[m.sniffles.esq]

Sorry, I thought these video games were played on computers. But if you say there's film running though them, I won't argue. I never opened one up. And you seem to know a lot about this stuff.

Still, it's weird that kodak is struggling, because they seem to make a lot of video games. Probably all Fuji. Y'know... Japan...

edit: shit, I thought that was a link to how animation worked. But I guess you just underlined for emphasis. It's cool, I noticed the word in the first post. But if you could send a link, I'd really like to know how this stuff works. Especially digital downloads

[Bassa-Bassa]

Are you ultimately trying to just argue semantics or you really don't understand there's something fundamentally different between drawing every frame in a sequence without the assistance of animation software and using one of these tools to get it done? I don't think I can be of help in either case, mind.

[m.sniffles.esq]

To get the "hand drawn" tag on Steam do you have to submit every frame of animation to prove that no tweening was used? Is the standard 24fps of Disney features good enough? Or does it have to be 60fps for those with expensive hardware? Probably 60, people get weird about that stuff. I heard that Miyazaki guy only does 24. Good thing he doesn't make games.

I just want to know how one gets that qualification. Is there a board or committee? Appointed or elected? Are you on it? Is it volunteer work? If not, does it pay well?

(sometimes you never know which dumb aside will kick the train from the rails. Stating all graphics are created by hand... Not just pointing out a meaningless marketing term, but a bona fide controversial topic, I suppose. Lucky I didn't ask for a definition of 'metroidvania')

Spoiler

I actually worked for this guy in the '00s. And lemme tell you, if you would have told him you made "hand drawn" animation because you didn't use tweening, You and he would have had a disagreement (probably with him starting with "go fuck" and ending with "yourself"). So I tend to look at things from both sides like I was Joni Mitchell, and I've deduced it's some trendy marketing horseshit

[Steven]

Steam tags are applied by users, which means they are useless and potentially intentionally inaccurate.

[Air Master Burst]

(sometimes you never know which dumb aside will kick the train from the rails. Stating all graphics are created by hand... Not just pointing out a meaningless marketing term, but a bona fide controversial topic, I suppose.

There's really no controvetsy here since eryone else is pretty clear on the difference between hand-drawn sprites and digitized Donkey Kong Country shit. I love how your noble attempt at pedantic high-horsery has blinded you to the fact that literally nobody has ever watched The X-Presidents to appreciate the animation quality (or lack thereof).

[Steven]

Donkey Kong Country does indeed look hideous, as does almost every other pre-rendered game.

[Sumez]

Lots of pre-rendered games look amazing, but it's when they start looking good that you stop considering that they are prerendered, so they probably don't register on your radar
Donkey Kong Country also looks awesome, but I can understand why it's not to everyone's taste due to how prominent the prerendered style is.

The problem is that we have arrived at realism, not on the journey there. The whole "OMG, look at the graphics" thing is not a selling point anymore.

IMO, that's the solution, not the problem. The fact that even AAA games are much less prone to base their marketing on how "mind blowing" the graphics are, means devs are forced to try other and more interesting things.

[Rastan78]

I like pre-rendered graphics. Cave, Psikyo, Yumekobo, Street Fighter 3S, PS era Final Fantasy and Resident Evils, old Diablo and Fallout games etc.

[Steven]

I can only imagine how much cooler games like Daioujou, Crimzon Clover, StarCraft, and all of those PS1 games that use pre-rendered backgrounds would look if they didn't have pre-rendered graphics. Soukyuugurentai generally looks better, though. Don't ask me why because I can't explain it. Looking cool ultimately doesn't matter that much for gameplay purposes, but it would be nice.

The problem is that we have arrived at realism, not on the journey there. The whole "OMG, look at the graphics" thing is not a selling point anymore.

IMO, that's the solution, not the problem. The fact that even AAA games are much less prone to base their marketing on how "mind blowing" the graphics are, means devs are forced to try other and more interesting things.

It is almost completely certain that we are well past the point of diminishing returns for graphics. The one thing that still usually looks off in games that have realistic art styles is hair. Death Stranding comes to mind, as the character models look REALLY good until you notice that their hair is oddly fake-looking.

[Sumez]

Gotta highlight the New Super Mario Bros. games as well. Not because they look good - I think they are in fact kind of ugly, but not because they are prerendered, just because the models and art style used is incredibly bland and tasteless.
What really got me though, is that I didn't even realise that these games, up to and including the WiiU iteration, all use entirely prerendered graphics. They look so smooth I didn't realise it wasn't just 3D models.

[Rastan78]

With the PS1 era stuff like RE1 and FF7 I don't think you could just swap out the pre-rendered stuff for pixel art. The whole design process would change to where the games would have ended up fundamentally different. They might be more like Monkey Island or something. Also the 3D character models and cutscenes wouldn't mesh with the environments well at all.

[Sumez]

Also the 3D character models and cutscenes wouldn't mesh with the environments well at all.

Unlike the actual FF7 where they blend in perfectly?

[Lemnear]

I like pre-rendered graphics. Cave, Psikyo, Yumekobo, Street Fighter 3S, PS era Final Fantasy and Resident Evils, old Diablo and Fallout games etc.

Same (also classic 16-bit and sometimes even 8-Bit), i also like early 3D graphics...but more likely like that whole era between the mid 80s and early 2000s. (Y2K/CyberCore, Frutiger Aero, VectorHeart, Helvetica Aqua Aero, Gen X Soft Club etc.)
Everything seemed more beautiful and genuine, distant from the jackal logic of the market, of shareholders and of high profit at all costs... when things were also done out of passion and not only and solely for money.
But this applies to games as well as films music and fashion/design...what bothers me is how almost no one notices this difference, this general drop in quality...and if you point it out to them, they point you out as retrograde, as if instead going behind to today's disgust it's something for intelligent people.

[Lemnear]

Also the 3D character models and cutscenes wouldn't mesh with the environments well at all.

Unlike the actual FF7 where they blend in perfectly?

The Second Best Remake ever made (the best is Shadow of the Colossus)

[Steven]

Gotta highlight the New Super Mario Bros. games as well. Not because they look good - I think they are in fact kind of ugly, but not because they are prerendered, just because the models and art style used is incredibly bland and tasteless.
What really got me though, is that I didn't even realise that these games, up to and including the WiiU iteration, all use entirely prerendered graphics. They look so smooth I didn't realise it wasn't just 3D models.

Yeah, those are ugly. I think the unofficial New Super Mario Land is also using prerendered graphics, but it looks like a 3D model. Not sure about Super Mario Bros Wonder, which reminds me that although I generally find Mario boring, I definitely want to check that game out. I can't believe I forgot about it for almost an entire year until just today...

With the PS1 era stuff like RE1 and FF7 I don't think you could just swap out the pre-rendered stuff for pixel art. The whole design process would change to where the games would have ended up fundamentally different. They might be more like Monkey Island or something. Also the 3D character models and cutscenes wouldn't mesh with the environments well at all.

I was thinking of making it more like MGS1 with almost everything made in polys. This will of course require more storage space, unfortunately.

The Second Best Remake ever made (the best is Shadow of the Colossus)

Tales of Destiny Director's Cut is definitely the best one.

[m.sniffles.esq]

literally nobody has ever watched The X-Presidents to appreciate the animation quality (or lack thereof).

Is that a reference to JJ (I'm sorry, I can't say I've keep up with his entire oeuvre since I left his employment)?

If so, you realize I was using him as an object example of a complete fucking blowhard,? As in "This guy's an asshole. Don't be that guy"

So I suppose it's fitting I get a response of someone being a complete fucking blowhard

I probably still have his email. You have a resume?

Spoiler

He's in the office! (I have a rule if someone's name is evoked twice, I check in)

edited for clarity:

not only did they think I was exalting your nobility for making me spend thousands of hours shooting cels and cutting on a flatbed for a fucking alka-seltzer commercial because your decrepit-ass can't turn on a scanner. BUT it was wasted effort, because some nonsense you made about presidents or something was shitty


> I anxiously await this person's demo reel

I can make this happen!

(postscript:

> and for the record I do use a scanner now. Next thing you know I'll be jerking off to videogames like you and your internet buddies)

[Lemnear]

The Second Best Remake ever made (the best is Shadow of the Colossus)

Tales of Destiny Director's Cut is definitely the best one.

I read that it is quite different from the original... so it's not a perfect Remake

[Steven]

I read that it is quite different from the original... so it's not a perfect Remake

If that is your criteria, Sonic CD 2011 is possibly the best remake ever. Most people don't even know that it is a remake at all, but it is.

[Air Master Burst]

Everything seemed more beautiful and genuine, distant from the jackal logic of the market, of shareholders and of high profit at all costs... when things were also done out of passion and not only and solely for money.

Double Dragon 3 has entered the chat.

If so, you realize I was using him as an object example of a complete fucking blowhard,? As in "This guy's an asshole

That wasn't particularly clear from what you wrote. I think you should be at least 15% more direct.

It's kinda depressing that you apparently still keep up with your abusive old boss, though. I don't miss having a career that requires that level of networking.

[Lemnear]

I read that it is quite different from the original... so it's not a perfect Remake

If that is your criteria, Sonic CD 2011 is possibly the best remake ever. Most people don't even know that it is a remake at all, but it is.

Is a small aesthetic improvement considered a Remake? and if it is IDENTICAL to the original, is it a remake? And if it has changes, is it a Reboot or Remake? I do not know
However, this was not the focus of the topic

Double Dragon 3 has entered the chat.

Maybe it's blasphemy but in general i don't like Beat'Em Up very much except for a couple of cases...i think i only played the first one of Double Dragon....until a car destroys a shop window so something like 2 minutes from the beginning..

Question: Would a child (today) be more interested in playing an arcade (from any era) or the latest blockbuster game with a very serious story? (like TLOU or Hellblade) ? Or will play something online only?

[Rastan78]

Also the 3D character models and cutscenes wouldn't mesh with the environments well at all.

Unlike the actual FF7 where they blend in perfectly?

Lol and it seems to be those funky models were an intentional stylistic choice when you compare them to the models in the battle scenes or the ones in FF9.

The RE HD remaster based on the GameCube version might be the pinnacle of that style at least on console? A beautiful example of early 2000s pre-rendered art IMO.

[Sumez]

The modern ports of RE1make are touched up to look even more beautiful, and they still rely on prerendered graphics. They are some of the best looking games of their style IMO.