Why shmups are such a niche genre

[cfx]

.

[XoPachi]

I remember seeing someone say games have "evolved from mere games into ~experiences~" and that no one plays for score because we have true art like Last of Us, FF ReBirth, and HellBlade to "push gaming forward beyond playing for arcade score". I replied saying that when designed well, playing for score is as valid as any design. The response I got was a dismissive "bing bing wahoo."
That is kind of the epitome of what people think of arcade games in general. There's a lot of similar sentiment towards genuine arcade design overall.

I think one thing that bothers me are people who know nothing about these games talking about what they need to do to "improve/modernize" and it's always the absolute worst ideas.
They need to focus more on plot. They need to be triple the length. They should incorporate more rogues (a friend even said rogues are just a "natural evolution of arcades"). Among others that dismiss and ignore the innovations the genre has had the last 30 years.

You ask what they've played in this genre and you find they always get filtered by stage 1 of R-Type, stage 1 of Ikaruga, and stage 1 of Gradius III (SNES). They couldn't even tell you who made those games. They don't know who Raizing, Cave, Psikyo, MileStone, or Toaplan are/were. They don't know Capcom beyond Monster Hunter and Resident Evil or Konami beyond Metal Gear. They've never cleared a single game except maybe some terrible EuroShmup on their dad's PC in 2001. Nothing. Literally nothing.
But they know with utmost confidence, that the genre needs to turn into God of War Ragnarok or something to be an "elevated experience".

I hope these games stay niche.

[Skyknight]

I think I want to know what they mean by “elevated”. I wouldn’t be surprised if something like G-Darius could be deemed an experience with its music and visual motifs, but I’m going to guess it’s not going to hit “elevated” with them. (Probably also Ikaruga, actually.)

I suppose the idea is games more properly being interactive stories of some measure, but I have my Concerns about how severe immersion should be. Basically, not to the point that you forget the physical world exists. >>; Things like Raiden V and the Touhou Project are probably the best extent for direct plot instillment, in any case.

[Daytime Waitress]

But they know with utmost confidence, that the genre needs to turn into God of War Ragnarok or something to be an "elevated experience".

Gaming will mature as a medium only when it sloughs its infantile obsession with lives and scores and embraces both true-to-life graphical fidelity and cinematic interludes that allow the consumer to truly experience the tribulations of Madoka from Pop n Twinbee, who is now a single mother valiantly grieving the loss of her husband.
The landscape is now entirely brown.
The single-player game costs $85 and requires an online connection.
BAFTA awards.

[Skyknight]

Now I have to ask how many of the “elevated experience” retinue are firmly in the True Art is Angsty camp. I take it they’d demand every soundtrack be pretty mournful, too? If it helps (it probably won’t), if the greater part of something, game or otherwise, is more mournful than “Chaos Breaker” from Blast Wind ( https://youtu.be/1eNZif4gd4U?si=YKCusz6WXYbB4yqC ; although “pensive” might be a better descriptor for it), I know I’m not going to have much use for it.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Arcade games needed to evolve into art-centric experiences to keep growing, anyway. Not everybody wanted Space Invaders-like graphics forever. Fortunately, that didn't go together with the abolishment of proper, well-made challenges for the user.

[Lemnear]

They banned me from many sites ... because i said that The Last of Us, if deprived of graphics and animation, is a poor game, a poorer version of Metal Gear Solid ... with the difference that TLOU is from 2013 and MGS It's from 1998.

Worse than that. TLOU has less to recommend it in terms of high-level play. There's only so good you can get when the game is on rails to such a ridiculous degree and you're riding from set piece to set piece with little "core gameplay" beyond holding a board for Ellie.

TLOU can't even be called a mediocre mgs clone until it dramatically increases the amount of time spent in core gameplay and reduces or eliminates "walk and talk" scenes. Note that the old MGS games had cutscenes and they had gameplay. Codec shit was largely opt-in. If you were playing then you were really playing. TLOU has a lot of loading screen sequences where you are forced to walk slowly while the game blabs at you. Like a cutscene except completely unskippable and you have to hold "up" on the control stick to progress it.

But in fact for the same reason i haven't bought any game similar to TLOU anymore... also because they are literally disposable, once finished there is no reason to play it again :\
and it's a one-shot experience that costs 70 bucks... with the same amount i go to the cinema at least 5 times!

I remember seeing someone say games have "evolved from mere games into ~experiences~" and that no one plays for score because we have true art like Last of Us, FF ReBirth, and HellBlade to "push gaming forward beyond playing for arcade score". I replied saying that when designed well, playing for score is as valid as any design. The response I got was a dismissive "bing bing wahoo."
That is kind of the epitome of what people think of arcade games in general. There's a lot of similar sentiment towards genuine arcade design overall.

I think one thing that bothers me are people who know nothing about these games talking about what they need to do to "improve/modernize" and it's always the absolute worst ideas.
They need to focus more on plot. They need to be triple the length. They should incorporate more rogues (a friend even said rogues are just a "natural evolution of arcades"). Among others that dismiss and ignore the innovations the genre has had the last 30 years.

You ask what they've played in this genre and you find they always get filtered by stage 1 of R-Type, stage 1 of Ikaruga, and stage 1 of Gradius III (SNES). They couldn't even tell you who made those games. They don't know who Raizing, Cave, Psikyo, MileStone, or Toaplan are/were. They don't know Capcom beyond Monster Hunter and Resident Evil or Konami beyond Metal Gear. They've never cleared a single game except maybe some terrible EuroShmup on their dad's PC in 2001. Nothing. Literally nothing.
But they know with utmost confidence, that the genre needs to turn into God of War Ragnarok or something to be an "elevated experience".

I hope these games stay niche.

Yes, but as i already said...this "Experience" is more like watching a TV series, which can entertain, but is not fun! (rarely is)
And what kind of game is it if it's not fun?
Beautiful graphics, wonderful animations, gameplay from 2005....GOTY ahahaha what horrible world have we ended up in?
I mean... they gave away Horizon Zero Dawn (during the pandemic)... and even though i got it as a gift, i couldn't finish it because of how boring it was haha

I didn't know about Psikyo/Toaplan/Raizing either before i found this forum.
And i found their stories very interesting, very similar to those of the great rock bands of the past!
Look at today's teams instead... who are they? The games are famous and gigantic but we know NOTHING about how it was made, nor actually by whom... and this contributes to that sense of "Industrial" and not "artisanal".
There are no documentaries about modern blockbusters, they don't dedicate this type of attention to it, it is treated as a "product" and that's it, without art in the strict sense of art or authorship.

I think more people should at least know who these people were, as they were industry luminaries who turned gaming on its head, just like everyone knows Hideo Kojima or Hidetaka Miyazaki, Shinji Mikami...or Yoko Taro .

[Lemnear]

Arcade games needed to evolve into art-centric experiences to keep growing, anyway. Not everybody wanted Space Invaders-like graphics forever. Fortunately, that didn't go together with the abolishment of proper, well-made challenges for the user.

Tetris Effect ? (i love Tetsuya Mizuguchi).

[Steven]

Arcade games needed to evolve into art-centric experiences to keep growing, anyway.

Nah, just cute waifu material. It worked for CAVE. Kind of, anyway. That's why we all played Saidaioujou, right?

[Air Master Burst]

I think I want to know what they mean by “elevated”. I wouldn’t be surprised if something like G-Darius could be deemed an experience with its music and visual motifs, but I’m going to guess it’s not going to hit “elevated” with them. (Probably also Ikaruga, actually.)

I suppose the idea is games more properly being interactive stories of some measure, but I have my Concerns about how severe immersion should be. Basically, not to the point that you forget the physical world exists. >>; Things like Raiden V and the Touhou Project are probably the best extent for direct plot instillment, in any case.

A single, solitary tear escapes down Tyrian's cheek.

[XoPachi]

I think I want to know what they mean by “elevated”.

More photorealistic, mo-capped, depressed and distressed people as protagonists in sad gray worlds.

[Steven]

I think I want to know what they mean by “elevated”.

More photorealistic, mo-capped, depressed and distressed people as protagonists in sad gray worlds.

Is that better or worse than whatever Sine Mora was supposed to be?

[XoPachi]

Is that better or worse than whatever Sine Mora was supposed to be?

I'd legitimately rather boot up Sine Mora over Last of Us, nuGod of War, Uncharted, HellBlade, Beyond Two Souls, Detroit Become Human, or whatever.
Sine Mora is a trash ass STG, but at least it isn't ashamed of it's own medium. At least there's an attempt to make a video game even if it was trash.

[Steven]

Is that better or worse than whatever Sine Mora was supposed to be?

I'd legitimately rather boot up Sine Mora over Last of Us, nuGod of War, Uncharted, HellBlade, Beyond Two Souls, Detroit Become Human, or whatever.
Sine Mora is a trash ass STG, but at least it isn't ashamed of it's own medium. At least there's an attempt to make a video game even if it was trash.

Out of all of those and Sine More, I'll take Uncharted without hesitation.

Spoiler

God of War and Last of Us were never good

[qmish]

I don't see what's bad about Cage games. They perfectly fit their genre of interactive movie. Well, maybe I say that cause I grew up with Fahrenheit.

Now, Last of Us I can understand. My friend, who is big fan of Thief 1-2 and Forbidden Siren games was very critical about TLOU1 after he played it.
TLOU2 i've no idea but it seemingly has a fun combat system for fans of Max Payne 3 or Manhunt.

I personally liked first Hellblade, but was not interested in its sequel from the start.

[Steven]

On the subject of these story-heavy games or whatever, you know what I played recently that was really REALLY awesome? Star Trek Resurgence. Yes, it has poor graphics and even worse animations, and as a game it's really not all that special, but it was good Star Trek (possibly great Star Trek!) and I loved it. It's no DS9 (which coincidentally ended exactly 25 years ago today), but nothing else is either and it was still really good. It's entirely possible to do adventure games and stuff properly. Too bad everybody is content with 100-hour bloatware with nice graphics instead.

Oh yeah, Cygni exists! Will it be Sine Mora 2 or something more? It's got the graphics and Konmai backing (questionable, arguably, as everyone hates Konmai now, but...) to attract non-STG players, and it's also going to be crazy long by STG standards or something like that, so less people will probably complain about it not being 6 days long and/or having pixel graphics.

Then once they play it they'll find that the graphics obscure everything and make the game harder to play than it would be if it actually had good STG visual design instead of a diarrhea mess of same-colored lights everywhere all the time, but that's a different thing entirely. I suppose it could be a gateway thing for someone, but we'll see. Was Sine Mora a gateway thing for anyone?

[Lemnear]

However, Sine Mora came out at a time when SHMUPS were almost non-existent... then whether it only has nice graphics and everything else sucks is another story.
Cygni is the right step at least graphically ...more or less ... (but so is R-Type Final 3).
That is, in the end the most famous sagas have returned to modern consoles, R-Type and Darius (DariusBurst) both have one thing in common, they are incredibly long! And graphically more advanced than the average SHMUPS.
I think this contributed to making them perceived as "whole games" and not as a small game that ends immediately combined with the fact that they belong to very famous sagas.
Really the only other one that can go this far is Konami with something like "Gradius Forever" (fictional name) which must be incredibly long, graphically modern, and with many different modes and stages.
But you also need to know how to experiment intelligently, if a fighting game can survive to this day (or Tetris/Arkanoid) DEFINITELY a STG can too!
It's a bit of a question of the lowest common denominator of fun, of what all the games that have made history have in common (true history, not the AAA modern games hahaha) and starting from there...but i probably think too positively

I know some of you code, i don't know how to do it, and i don't even know how to draw, but i ask everyone else that too. Have you ever thought about your own STG? (i did)

[Sima Tuna]

I think the Darius system of diverging routes can help to give a sense of "fullness" to shmups. Because you can say to a normie, "oh yeah, the average run takes 30 minutes, but there are 11 possible unique paths to the end" and then the normie will think to themselves that the game is fucking awesome because it has so much length and replay value.

Whereas if you tell a normie "every time I replay mushihimesama, I encounter something new" then they won't know what you are talking about and think you're just a weirdo. Outrun had routes and people loved that game too.

The trap most modern "arcade" style games fall into (especially beat em ups) is in bloating the fuck out of the average run length. A 2-hour 1cc isn't fun for anyone. But if you tell normies, again, that your game is 40 minutes long to beat, they'll scream "bad value for money! Reee!" Final Vendetta ran into that problem. I would much rather try to 1cc Final Vendetta than Streets of Rage 4. Final Vendetta is a lot shorter and snappier in the attempt. But SoR4 got all the praise and a lot of people passed Final Vendetta over. Part of it is the graphics, but I think part of it is Final Vendetta's true Neo-Geo arcade feel and length. What makes Final Vendetta better as an arcade game is exactly the same element that causes non-arcade players to think it's too short and a waste of money.

But Fight 'n' Rage did the multiple routes/ending thing and was received rather well. Fight 'n' Rage's routes are still a little too long imo, but at least the idea is correct. If you want to make 30 levels worth of content for your game, don't force me to play all 30 every time I go for the 1cc. Let me select from a list of seven or so in some kind of arrangement that makes logical (difficulty) sense.

So in short, maybe indie devs who want to make a "true" arcade experience while appealing to the masses should go for the multiple routes thing, or include a roguelike side mode to shut up the normies.

Oh and no, Roguelikes are NOT "the new modern arcade games" because of fucking meta-progression. If a roguelike has zero meta-progression then yes, it could be considered arcade-like. Meta-progression is the death of arcade design, however. Especially "die your way to victory" meta-progression, which is so common in those kinds of games. I love Caves of Qud, but it has no meta-progression AFAIK. Meta-progression is one of those elements that I believe can completely ruin a game.

[Lemnear]

Long story short, it's a bit like indies, Hollow Knight doesn't do anything new for Metroidvania/Search Action, yet it hit the box office.
So in reality there is a lack of good NEW exponents ?

[Air Master Burst]

Final Vendetta ran into that problem. I would much rather try to 1cc Final Vendetta than Streets of Rage 4. Final Vendetta is a lot shorter and snappier in the attempt. But SoR4 got all the praise and a lot of people passed Final Vendetta over. Part of it is the graphics, but I think part of it is Final Vendetta's true Neo-Geo arcade feel and length. What makes Final Vendetta better as an arcade game is exactly the same element that causes non-arcade players to think it's too short and a waste of money.

SoR4 isn't too bad to 1CC (mostly because it's fairly easy by belt-scroller standards), but playing for score is absolutely brutal since the combo system is all or nothing.

Final Vendetta totally stomps all over SoR4, and if they took out the stupid container drop instakills and beefed up the difficulty it could be a real contender.

I thought Shredder's Revenge did a much better job at mainstream appeal than SoR4. The dodge roll and special meter taunt abuse are perfect for casuals, while cranking the difficulty can still offer a decent challenge. SoR4 would actually be a good stepping stone from Shredder's Revenge to the belt scroller big leagues.

Fight'N Rage is a goddamn masterpiece. It's the only belt scroller of this century I rate among the actual heavyweights of the genre.

The real issue is that most people just want a quick nostalgia hit and don't usually have much interest in engaging with true arcade-style games on their own terms. They just want to spend a few minutes pushing pixels with a joystick while they get beeped at.

[Sima Tuna]

Final Vendetta ran into that problem. I would much rather try to 1cc Final Vendetta than Streets of Rage 4. Final Vendetta is a lot shorter and snappier in the attempt. But SoR4 got all the praise and a lot of people passed Final Vendetta over. Part of it is the graphics, but I think part of it is Final Vendetta's true Neo-Geo arcade feel and length. What makes Final Vendetta better as an arcade game is exactly the same element that causes non-arcade players to think it's too short and a waste of money.

SoR4 isn't too bad to 1CC (mostly because it's fairly easy by belt-scroller standards), but playing for score is absolutely brutal since the combo system is all or nothing.

Final Vendetta totally stomps all over SoR4, and if they took out the stupid container drop instakills and beefed up the difficulty it could be a real contender.

Two separate issues there. SoR4 is too long, but it's also too easy on default difficulty. The result is an easy 1cc that takes fucking forever, which is really unbearable imo. I'm also not a fan of the hyper armor bosses have in SoR4, even if the game overall is easy. Rubs me the wrong way.

[DMC]

14 years and 47 pages later and we're still niche.

Maybe it's time we, the community, put in some effort. How about we start knocking on doors like Jehova's Witnesses?
Have you, Sir, heard of DoDonPachi?
We wonder if you have a few minutes to discuss the chaining system?

Other than that, I still believe a battley royale game like Tetris 99 could be a big gateway to shmup scoring.

[Skyknight]

What do you have in mind for a template? Change Air Blade?

[DMC]

Something like a modern caravan game. By scoring well you send enemies/obstacles/bad rng/reduced multiplier to some random opponent of the the other 98 contestants,
Every minute or so the worst 20 scores or so are dropped out. Last surviving / greatest score wins, after some time limit, rank increases exponentially to wrap things up.

[Air Master Burst]

What do you have in mind for a template? Change Air Blade?

Twinkle Star Sprites seems like an obvious choice.

Has anyone tried Rival Megagun yet?

[Bassa-Bassa]

Arcade games needed to evolve into art-centric experiences to keep growing, anyway. Not everybody wanted Space Invaders-like graphics forever. Fortunately, that didn't go together with the abolishment of proper, well-made challenges for the user.

Tetris Effect ? (i love Tetsuya Mizuguchi).

I was talking about the 80's. Gradius, Makaimura, Gun Smoke, or Space Harrier were already artistic enough and made good use of illustrators, animators and musicians to make sure the user enjoyed a unique audiovisual experience (that's my meaning of "art-centric" there). Many people (myself included) approached them just because of that and stayed because the intended challenge to get more was worth it, abided by the rules. The race to make the most overwhelming (artistic) visuals and sounds led to some of the most gorgeous videogame pieces ever in the 90s, as the audience responded. At least, until the Playstation was a thing.

[DestroyTheCore]

I agree with most of the previous posts about successful games being soulless formulas with a badly written story that leave millions of players in awe. But let's not forget this forum is dedicated to shmups so we are biased from the start. I have discussed with many simple-minded/casual gamers who simply enjoy AAA games and that is totally okay. We can criticize how the video game industry is unfair towards more creative developers and takes no risks for profit, but we can still enjoy our things without the general public's validation. What's even the point of calling casuals "normies" other than pretending our own superiority in video games? We can all enjoy gaming with different tastes and philosophies in mind.

At the end of the day I'm also looking for the next snappy, challenging and rewarding gaming experience like many of you do. There are so many games out there and nothing's preventing us from enjoying older and newer games. On the other hand we won't go far as a community if we constantly idealize japanese video games from the 80s-00s and refuse change. And let's be honest: many of the games we discuss wouldn't even be remotely cherished if it wasn't for their aesthetic/rarity/developer's reputation. Then we wonder why shmups are so niche.

Ultimately we are talking about video games. Life is about so much more!

[Bassa-Bassa]

There are so many games out there and nothing's preventing us from enjoying older and newer games.

You know, you may just... not like newer games?

On the other hand we won't go far as a community if we constantly idealize japanese video games from the 80s-00s and refuse change.

But it is a community particularly based around "japanese video games from the 80s-00s", isn't it?

And let's be honest: many of the games we discuss wouldn't even be remotely cherished if it wasn't for their aesthetic/rarity/developer's reputation. Then we wonder why shmups are so niche.

I don't think I understand much of what you're trying to say here either. I understand there's something lame and countervailing in cherishing a game just for its rarity or even the dev's reputation, but do we really do that in general here? Would you give us an example?

As for cherishing a game just for its aesthetics, precisely in the forum with in-depth strategy guides for the freaking Giga Wing Generations or Raiden V, you mean?


I'm far from wanting to start an argument, believe me, but your post really left me wondering.

[DestroyTheCore]

On the other hand we won't go far as a community if we constantly idealize japanese video games from the 80s-00s and refuse change.

But it is a community particularly based around "japanese video games from the 80s-00s", isn't it?

This forum is about shmups in general but the userbase clearly has preferences for specific developers or eras. This is not a bad thing per se but it makes the scene more niche if let's say you just discovered an euroshmup you really enjoy and want to discuss the genre after googling "shmup forum" to find fellow fans.

And let's be honest: many of the games we discuss wouldn't even be remotely cherished if it wasn't for their aesthetic/rarity/developer's reputation. Then we wonder why shmups are so niche.

I don't think I understand much of what you're trying to say here either. I understand there's something lame and countervailing in cherishing a game just for its rarity or even the dev's reputation, but do we really do that in general here? Would you give us an example?

As for cherishing a game just for its aesthetics, precisely in the forum with in-depth strategy guides for the freaking Giga Wing Generations or Raiden V, you mean?


I'm far from wanting to start an argument, believe me, but your post really left me wondering.

Haha that's okay! I'm more the one who's in position for starting an argument with my clearly controversial take.

Maybe that's how I now perceive video games with adulthood, maybe CAVE spoiled me with their incredibly high production values, but personally, most games discussed here are not interesting enough for me to invest time on them. Maybe I'm just some shmup simp/casual who wants to discover as many things as possible while not having enough time not patience to master them. Enjoying shmups as a niche and going down the rabbit hole is an interesting concept but it's another thing in practice. Shmups require way more dedication and passion than most genres and maybe it's more about me than about you guys. I should not ruin other people's fun any further so I'll leave it at it.

Nevertheless this genre will always have a place in my heart and I still watch reviews and superplays here and there. As for being able to 1CC anything, that's another story!

[Air Master Burst]

This forum is about shmups in general but the userbase clearly has preferences for specific developers or eras. This is not a bad thing per se but it makes the scene more niche if let's say you just discovered an euroshmup you really enjoy and want to discuss the genre after googling "shmup forum" to find fellow fans.

We have fans of all sorts of games around here. Make an appreciation thread and someone will probably engage. Euros aren't my thing personally, but I love Raptor and Tyrian.

We also have what might be the most active english-language forum for some other niche genres, too. The Other Gaming section is more robust than you might think!