Extron DSC HD-HD - Unable to output 960i on CRT EDTV

[Nick Vrenna]

Greetings,

I have recently acquired an Extron DSC HD-HD scaler device in the hopes of outputting 960i, specifically 1707x960i@60, on my Loewe Aconda 9381 ZW CRT TV equipped with a repro VGA card. I've had some trouble outputting to the TV in this mode in the past with CRU or NVIDIA Control Panel but thanks to CRT Emudriver and ArcadeOSD I can not only consistently output 960i via emudriver but also do it with NCP as well by copying the vertical timing values from Arcade OSD into the custom res tool. That's all fine for PC use and emulation, but now I also want my consoles to output in 960i on this TV as well, specifically PS3, 360 and Wii U.

As I've said, I've obtained the aforementioned scaler with this purpose in mind, since it advertises EDID import and custom rates / resolution, 3 slots for them in fact. The built-in resolutions like 1080i indicate a clear interlacing capability, right? Well, after hooking up the scaler to my PC and assigning the 960i resolution I have in mind via the custom EDID import, on the scaler end it isn't saved as 1707x960i but rather 1707x480p; on the PC end (Extron PCS software) it is still reported as 960, regardless of the scaler end which is obviously still 480p.

So with all that said, is it possible to output this mode on HD-HD, or does this scaler not support custom interlaced resolutions for output? The way I generate custom EDIDs which add these resolutions is with the Custom Resolution Utility export feature, in which I add certain resolutions settings to an existing secondary monitor and then export that lone resolution without saving the timings changes on the monitor itself. The timings I use are the same timings that get accepted on the TV otherwise; some horizontal value deviations are possible but so far the vertical values must remain the same as the ArcadeOSD counterparts. But with every variant I've tried so far, I get the same two results: either a distorted output or no signal / TV shutoff.

The setup as it is:
Console 720p HDMI output > Scaler Input slot> 1280x720 upscaling to 960 in theory (480 in practice) > HDMI to VGA DAC (Scaler Output slot, generic 165MHz DAC) > Loewe VGA input

Below I will post the images of the config layout / process:

First, some proof the that PC > TV output is actually running in 960i and that the TV supports it
The PC config is made from an ATi Radeon HD 5450 with Emudriver installed, outputting from the DVI port via DVI to VGA passive adapter and specifically from the Analog 0 slot of the emudriver, running on Windows 10

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ArcadeOSD timings / modeline info

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Modeline clipboard info

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modeline "1712x960_60 31.53KHz 60.00Hz" 68.10 1712 1776 2032 2160 960 982 986 1051 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 31517.78-31537.78, 50.00-60.00, 0.940, 3.759, 1.880, 0.698, 0.127, 2.062, 0, 0, 480, 270, 960, 540

On the CRT there's also perceivable flickering / shimmer on text and other tiny lineart which almost confirms that interlacing IS happening. The NCP config is different than the emudriver config on the horizontal timing, but produces a successful output as well. NVIDIA values:

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With that out of the way, here are pictures of the actual Extron config:

The custom EDID that gets imported into Extron PSC's EDID Minder tab, and assigned into the one of 3 custom res slots (C1)

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The second EDID variation (C2)

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DSC HD-HD connected via miniUSB to my PC and connected to via Extron PCS
The 1280x720 input in this image is from an Xbox 360 console. On the right is the custom resolution being output after the EDID was added and assigned.

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And finally, on the output side of this, here's a photo of how it appears on the HD-HD OSC itself.

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So, as you can see, the output on the Extron is indeed 1712x480. It's definitely not running in an interlaced output, there is no shimmer / flicker viewing it in real life. Although, it's a much nicer 480p mode with a far sharper horizontal and far more detailed and smoother vertical as a 720p signal is being downscaled into 480p, but it's still just that and my end goal is proper 960i.

If any expert can help me figure out how to get 1712x960i running I'd appreciate it a lot, it has been a major timesink getting it running and set up as is

[Josh128]

..

[orange808]

I seriously doubt that machine is fully programmable. I'm struggling to remember an Extron that is robust enough to output off-spec interlaced signals. I don't think one exists.

It's probably best to ask Marqs for OSSC Pro 960i support. In theory, the OSSC Pro could provide low latency, frame lock, and a high quality DAC using the analog output expansion card--and you wouldn't need an external DAC. That's the solution you really want, but you need firmware support.

If you must immediately plug in an "off the shelf" used video processor, maybe try a Corio 2? Should be about 20ms of lag (similar to Framemeister). There's no frame lock, so the frame pacing won't be 100%. Corio 2 machines are flexible and compliant to most programming. That may work. Even most programmable video processors refuse to allow off-spec interlaced output.

Beware. Scaling 720p up to 960 lines isn't going to look right. (Some might even say it's going to look bad.) And, the C2 scaling engine isn't known for high performance. C2 is best at doubling and dividing evenly.

[Nick Vrenna]

I seriously doubt that machine is fully programmable. I'm struggling to remember an Extron that is robust enough to output off-spec interlaced signals. I don't think one exists.

I was afraid this might be the case given how it treats the 960i output. Since it supports custom res I was assuming there'd be some extra resolution flexibility / compatibility, and maybe that I've made invalid timings or missing some tweaks to the config, but it very well might be as limited as you're claiming. Just needed to verify the fact first.

Corio 2 machines are flexible and compliant to most programming. That may work. Even most programmable video processors refuse to allow off-spec interlaced output.

I'm actually waiting for a tvONE 1T-C2-750 to arrive. That one I know for a fact CAN output proper 960i after some config adjustments, so a great suggestion on your end. This thread was more of an attempt at discerning whether the DSC HD-HD could possibly be tweaked in such a way as well.

Beware. Scaling 720p up to 960 lines isn't going to look right. (Some might even say it's going to look bad.) And, the C2 scaling engine isn't known for high performance. C2 is best at doubling and dividing evenly.

This might be true but I'd like to see it in action regardless. The idea behind upscaling to 960i is to max out this TV for gen 7 games since it caps around 600 TVL, and the higher linecount of 960i is sure to do that, unlike 480p.

[SuperSpongo]

In any event, thanks for posting CRT Emudriver and CRU screenshots I've forwarded the thread to a friend of mine with a similar setup to yours.