Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Steven]

Yep. Killing stuff is a heavy focus of the game, and the many difficult bosses (I believe I read somewhere that there are 40 different bosses) are a sales point. I think they kind of over did it, as you'll be walking along minding your own business when BOSS FIGHT! YOU'RE UNEXPECTEDLY STUCK IN THIS ROOM UNTIL ONE OF US DIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is one of the defining traits of the game lol

[Sumez]

Seems to be a lot of running in different directions and backtracking from what footage I've seen. I actually thought it was a metroidvania when I first heard about it.
Either way, damage numbers popping up in an action game tends to be a massive red flag for me.

[Steven]

I actually thought it was a metroidvania when I first heard about it.

I don't use that term, but it is. The OP specifically mentions Metroid and games like it as being covered here, so...

[Sumez]

Apologies, I'm not trying to be genre police. Just anything getting branded R2RKMF for any reason, should be enough to grab my attention

[Steven]

lol yeah, don't worry about it. I'll probably finish the game in a few days, but I'm not sure. I'll be super busy with work stuff all weekend, so maybe not.

[BIL]

I know it's kind of weird to recommend* a game and then only talk about the bad stuff, but I am not finished with the game yet anyway, so it's hard to say at this point, but if you want a game that lets you get 100% completely lost in a world that is possibly way too big for its own good with no hints at all, lets you go (almost) wherever the hell you want at any point, partially due to very high potential for sequence breaking, and has relatively high difficulty for a 2D platformer, here you go.

Much appreciated! Excellent writeup, marked for index.

...is Afterimage a R2RKMF?

Looks like Demon's Blazon via one a' them fancy FromSawfts ta me. Nah yeah, looks fine, even without our usual wide net for things like Cave Noire and Herzog Zwei.

[Steven]

Herzog Zwei.

Now there's a game I absolutely love. Herzog Zwei is incredible! I don't play it much (I should), but when I do I have a hell of a lot of fun. I haven't messed around with the Switch version, but I do have a nice CIB Japanese MD copy.

lol you deleted your mention of Herzog Zwei as I was typing! I saw it and can't unsee it~

[BIL]

Herzog Zwei.

Now there's a game I absolutely love. Herzog Zwei is incredible! I don't play it much (I should), but when I do I have a hell of a lot of fun. I haven't messed around with the Switch version, but I do have a nice CIB Japanese MD copy.

lol you deleted your mention of Herzog Zwei as I was typing! I saw it and can't unsee it~

Haha, typing through a haze of Guinness and sunburn. Posted without seeing the next page where you guys sorted it out. Will revert my post for posterity.

Herzog Zwei is incredible! I don't play it much (I should), but when I do I have a hell of a lot of fun. I haven't messed around with the Switch version, but I do have a nice CIB Japanese MD copy.

Amazing game! I originally mis-typed "Cave Story," which (like Metroid and Demon's Blazon) is comfily on-topic here. What I meant was Cave Noire, which is sort of a "coinop roguelike" to HZ's coinop RTS. I love it when you see these other gametypes folded into the immediacy of scrolling action. Or in HZ's case, pretty much innovated within the scope of scrolling action.

[Sumez]

I'm all for "coin-up metroidvanias", but the only thing that really comes to mind is the original NES Metroid due to its immense replayability and brisk pace for an experienced player.

If anyone has recommendations I'm all ears!

[BryanM]

Eh? Cadash?

One of those traits of the genre I think is pure poison are pointless deadends. Every part of a level should have a point imo, I've talked about that a lot about bad jRPG dungeons that are empty hallways with no purpose in-world building or in-game mechanics, just empty voids of loot and enemies. Like those pencil mazes that'd be bundled in time-killing books of word searches or crossword puzzles. (Something very important to be cognizant of when making a random level generator.)

Backtracking cleared areas are a drag, whether it's in a Diablo game or Zelda 2. There's this one perverted succubus franchise inspired by Zelda 2 and Castlevania... I'ma look it up... Midnight Castle Succubus. I came across a youtube of gameplay, and there was a section of backtracking through an empty hall.

So now I'm a weirdo that's 100% against any dead ends that go on longer for more than one screen.

I don't know if constantly spawning enemies like in Rygar is really viable in search action. Unless it's on a timer to a boss like Vampire Survivor, and the searching is just for bonus items/treasure or something. It's an idea I had, but I don't know if anyone else has made that game yet.

Gaurodan has given me a new appreciation for timers being able to force players into pushing themselves and taking risks. I used to think of them nothing more than a pointless annoyance or a necessity to end an arcade game of an idle player. Especially in Mario stages that weren't about racing against the clock.

[Steven]

Isn't Metroid on PlayChoice-10? Not the best way to play it, but it's coin-op Metroid.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Well, two obvious recommendations: A Robot Named Fight, the procedurally generated Super Metroid clone. And Cadence of Hyrule, which is roguelike Zelda.

Valdis Story is one of my all-time favorite search action games. Combat is awesome and pace is quick. Every boss gives you a letter grade based on time/damage/style, and these are important because they award permanent stat increases for better grades. Quite linear, but lots of optional goodies to find and little skips you can do to save time. One of the characters has access to more significant skips and can beat the game really fast as a result. The hardest difficulty disables saving + has a time limit, for proper arcade-itude.

The other one that I can kinda-sorta recommend is Sundered. Very aerial-focused game with momentum-based movement. You can zip through areas once you master the movement, and even skip 5 of the game's 7 major ability upgrades. The main gimmick of Sundered is that enemies are not waiting in the level for the player to arrive, instead spawning in procedurally generated waves that hunt the player. Makes for a unique feel and very nice pacing, and the bigger hordes are delightfully overwhelming.

The big BUT with Sundered is that it allows grinding XP to get OP stats, and encourages it by giving lategame enemies huge health pools. Playing on Easy is honestly not a bad idea, since the only things that difficulty changes in Sundered are the scaling of health, damage, and XP. A bonus feature of low percent runs is that your stats have much lower caps, so you can't grind even if you want to.

[BryanM]

no i-frames on dash... which I don't think is an issue at all, but others complain about it

I heard there were complaints like this about the new ghost's n' ghoulies game. Calling it "clunky" and such.

Normally I love complaints but this one really hurt my brain. It's like they want to be invincible at every moment.

I mean good lord, god forbid a button you pressed five seconds ago be relevant to what's happening right now. This ain't exactly like screwing yourself over in a text adventure game because you didn't check the mailbox 10 hours ago...

[Steven]

no i-frames on dash... which I don't think is an issue at all, but others complain about it

I heard there were complaints like this about the new ghost's n' ghoulies game. Calling it "clunky" and such.

Normally I love complaints but this one really hurt my brain. It's like they want to be invincible at every moment.

I mean good lord, god forbid a button you pressed five seconds ago be relevant to what's happening right now. This ain't exactly like screwing yourself over in a text adventure game because you didn't check the mailbox 10 hours ago...

lol right?

There is an i-frame dash in the game, but you have to defeat a late-game/possibly endgame boss to get it and it has to recharge before you can i-frame dash again. I have it and it does make things much easier, but you definitely have to earn it and it absolutely cannot be spammed mindlessly by design.

[BIL]

no i-frames on dash... which I don't think is an issue at all, but others complain about it

I heard there were complaints like this about the new ghost's n' ghoulies game. Calling it "clunky" and such.

What, GNG Resurrection? Anybody calling that clunky needs to hit the showers and blast the loads out of their eyes. (™ © GaijinPunch) Fujiwara machined it together even tighter than his 2D games. At the same time, lots of sensible leeway in the player/enemy models. It's smooth and tight!

Like a GOD DAMN BEAVER (■｀w´■)

Unless they're saying the 2D games are clunky too, ie, they suck at them. Understandable (｀w´メ)

[BryanM]

Yeah, sickos who hate committing to a jump or levels that are built to work against your moveset. Lemme see if I can find the vid where the guy mentions these people, I'd never hang out in the kinds of places where I'd see it first hand...


Note that ArKnights does this too, designs levels where the standard strategy of creating a kill box concentrated in one area is NOT enough to win. Requiring covering multiple areas and proper counter-play against enemies or their triggers. This kind of thing, mixing up what optimal play is, is essential to make a game not boring as shit. Imagine a Ghost n' Goblins that was a flat plane with nothing but zombies.

..... I'm horrified that that thought experiment is still better than most games. ...the bar is not high..

[Hazuki]

Imagine a Ghost n' Goblins that was a flat plane with nothing but zombies.

Reminds me of stuff like this:
https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/3237/
https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/1726/

People changing games to suit their lack of skills. If they're not good enough to beat something, don't put the blame on the games. They don't need to change for the player. The player is the one who needs to change and get good.

Also those types who whine about anything in a level that's non-standard like water physics, ice physics, instant death spikes/traps, reversed controls, or any gimmick that's even mildly challenging, really. I mean, what did they want? For everything to be like SMB's 1-1?

[BryanM]

Some people change to suit the world, others change the world to suit themselves. Am I any better than them for going in the exact opposite direction?

And trust me..... those zombies at the start of Ghosts n' Goblins aren't necessarily harmless.

[Hazuki]

Am I any better than them for going in the exact opposite direction?

Hey, I played this hack back in the day. It's among my top 2 favorite CV1 hacks, the other being Chorus of Mysteries.

There's also Castlevania: The Holy Relics by the same author of Chorus, which is newer and probably great as well, but I haven't played it yet. My interest in hacks diminished over the years.

[Steven]

Are there any Castlevania ROM hacks that are worth playing? One that makes Haunted Castle not completely terrible would be pretty great.

[Sima Tuna]

Are there any Castlevania ROM hacks that are worth playing? One that makes Haunted Castle not completely terrible would be pretty great.

Isn't there a Castlevania 2 hack that makes the game good? Some kind of hack or remake, I forget what.

[Steven]

Are there any Castlevania ROM hacks that are worth playing? One that makes Haunted Castle not completely terrible would be pretty great.

Isn't there a Castlevania 2 hack that makes the game good? Some kind of hack or remake, I forget what.

Yeah, that would be the FDS version lol

[BrianC]

Are there any Castlevania ROM hacks that are worth playing? One that makes Haunted Castle not completely terrible would be pretty great.

Isn't there a Castlevania 2 hack that makes the game good? Some kind of hack or remake, I forget what.

Yeah, that would be the FDS version lol

I was under the impression that the FDS version has the same flaws as the NES version and still has purposely vague or misleading text in parts. There is a comprehensive hack of Simon's Quest that changes the mapper and text, and even a page that lets you choose which features you want.

[Sumez]

Eh? Cadash?

Honestly a pretty good suggestion.

I like the idea of an exploration-based "arcade game" where learning the layout will help you improve your performance in the game, reducing clear time to less than 2 hours at worst - but which is also open ended enough that you can route your way through it in different ways based on which order you want to get upgrades, or which you can forego entirely.

The first Metroid comes extremely close to this ideal.

[qmish]

Hi. I'm sort of new to this thread, so there is something I have to ask.
Sorry if this question is already discussed to [s]death[/s] game over, but still.

In you opinion, what are arcade (as in, initially released in arcade cabinets) games that feel closest to console trilogy (fan favorite Famicom saga) of Ninja Gaiden/Ninja Ryuukenden?
Now, to be more specific: I'm asking for games that feel the most similar in gameplay, stage design, game design, moveset, difficulty etc. etc.
So it does not have to be similar in aesthetics/setting.

Thanks in advance.

[Steven]

Isn't there a Castlevania 2 hack that makes the game good? Some kind of hack or remake, I forget what.

Yeah, that would be the FDS version lol

I was under the impression that the FDS version has the same flaws as the NES version and still has purposely vague or misleading text in parts. There is a comprehensive hack of Simon's Quest that changes the mapper and text, and even a page that lets you choose which features you want.

It's the same game but with (mostly) better music, a save system, and no bad translation to worry about because it's in Japanese, so it's definitely the best way to play it. It's a good game and I don't know why people hate it other than because AVGN incorrectly said it's bad.

[XoPachi]

Was Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword any good?

[Sumez]

(mostly) better music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94pjsxP7CgI

[Steven]

I seem to have gotten all endings in Afterimage, so here are my final thoughts.

Completion time with almost all items found and not at max level was 40 hours. I didn't realize that I could have gone and done the final bits of the story much earlier than I actually did, but I could have cut the time by a few hours if I had.

I didn't bother getting all of the items because it's annoying and tedious and pointless. Most of the hidden items are useless garbage, so scouring a game that's like 30 times the size of Super Metroid to find a bunch of weak healing items that you don't need is not fun. Speaking of Super Metroid, that game marks the rooms that have items on your map. Afterimage doesn't, so you have to equip one specific powerup and run around one of the largest 2D games ever made until a little picture of a clock appears above your head to tell you that there is an item nearby. Yeah, it's dumb and if it doesn't sound fun, that's because it isn't.

The music is mostly pretty good! Some of the music in the second half is droning and annoying, but the first half of the game has pretty nice music in general aside from maybe one place. The graphics are also very nice aside from some of the enemy animations looking like they are suspended by strings, which looks weird.

The only thing that I mentioned earlier that I want to go back to is the story. Lots of people say the story is nonsensical, but it isn't. It actually makes sense, but almost all of the story is located in the final hour and a half of this 30~40 hour game, so basically you run around with basically no story at all for 30~35 hours, then you get new game+, which isn't actually new game+ but an additional game mode that serves no purpose other than to be a massive exposition dump and it's only ~50 minutes long. Then you can go back to the normal game mode and get the last ending, which takes about 20~30 minutes once you find the place you have to go to, which I found by chance without specifically meaning to look for it or knowing that it was there. Is this the true ending? I don't know. Maybe. All I know is that it ends super abruptly and you're like WTF that's it? Where's the rest of it? Well, it isn't there, so don't worry about it. The last boss in this ending is also super easy, probably the easiest boss in the entire game, which is so weird after the game kicks your ass for 30 hours and then it gives you this ridiculously easy possibly true final boss.

I backed this game on Kickstarter, and of the crowdfunded games that I have actually participated in the crowdfunding for, this is the second best one. R-Type Final 2 definitely takes first place, but Afterimage is a pretty distant but enjoyable second and the rest pretty much suck or are in development hell and will probably never release, which is why I no longer do crowdfunding for games. Considering that I was in for like the cheapest option that offered a copy of the game, I'd say it was worth it. I am unsure if I will replay it given how stupidly big and occasionally it is, but I might since it's generally good if you work around the generally poor game balance and ignore the nothingness story.

(mostly) better music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94pjsxP7CgI

That's why I said mostly lol. Besides, aside from the intro sounding like a computer having a seizure, the rest is better than the cart version, mostly because the drums in the overseas version sound like shit. Japanese people think the overseas version sounds really fucking weird, BTW.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Hi. I'm sort of new to this thread, so there is something I have to ask.
Sorry if this question is already discussed to [s]death[/s] game over, but still.

In you opinion, what are arcade (as in, initially released in arcade cabinets) games that feel closest to console trilogy (fan favorite Famicom saga) of Ninja Gaiden/Ninja Ryuukenden?
Now, to be more specific: I'm asking for games that feel the most similar in gameplay, stage design, game design, moveset, difficulty etc. etc.
So it does not have to be similar in aesthetics/setting.

Thanks in advance.

I'm not exactly the biggest Ninja Ryuukenden fan so take this with a grain of salt but I believe you're out of luck there. The closest thing in feel and physics I can think of is Kaiketsu Yanchamaru, but don't expect too similar level structures, moveset and focus on enemies placed on fixed locations. So don't expect much, that is.