Shmups as an eSport

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SAM
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Shmups as an eSport

Post by SAM »

I always think those Shmup games which does not have infinitive loops are very suitable for eSport, for example Dodonpachi, Battle Garegga, Ikaruga, etc.. The tournament format would be somthing like each player is given 3 runs of a single credit each at default settings, the highist scores amoung the 3 runs would be used to determine the winner. :)

The problem obvious is the lack of sponsors for this kind of tournment. Currently eSports are mostly sponsor by the games' makers. But the makers of shmup games are not making much money, that even the best shmup games makers are trying to make money by making games of a diferent genue. :?

Let's assume someone has donated the starting money to held such tournaments. Could shmup game competition generate enough spectators to support the event? :o

Do you think it is possible to promote shmups as an eSport?
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Sengoku Strider »

There are already exhibition spectator events, so it's probably an inevitability. It's just waiting for someone to come up with the right game. Things like Twinkle Star Sprites or Kingdom Grand Prix are probably the better direction. I can't think of an established eSport game that doesn't involve direct head to head competition.
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Rastan78
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Rastan78 »

Change Air Blade at EVO? I got to play this game 2P vs once on a cab. It was fun. You do see some more obscure games like Windjammers cropping up and having little side tournaments at big events so who knows.

Doing a format where you have 2 or more people on different machines playing a shmup for score could be fun to watch. You see this done in speedrunning races.

Ultimately I think who has highest all time PB is the better measure of where a players skill is at though.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Plasmo »

A very timely topic!

Shmups can be played in a versus setting! We have tried this format during Stunfest 2018 for Battle Garegga and it was a lot of fun!

The Touhou community already has a long history with the regular Touhou World Cup series.

Just today, we have posted an official announcement for an event that is going to greatly popularize the versus format for arcade shmups. Please check out the upcoming Kumite streaming event! It's organized by Mark MSX from The Electric Underground.

Schedule here
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Meriscan
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Meriscan »

Competetive STG is just as easy as setting up a speedrunning race. Both for versus games (Change Air Blade, TSS) as well as general scorerunning. If this idea will ever catch traction, we need to do events ourselves and get noticed first. First AGDQ was also an amateur event.

I don't think I'd have any more/less respect for STG if it were to become an eSport. Games that become eSports are only based on popularity. Not how well fit the games are for a competetive setting.
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Queen Charlene
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Queen Charlene »

Sengoku Strider wrote:I can't think of an established eSport game that doesn't involve direct head to head competition.
there's actually a guy who got a sponsorship from Red Bull eSports for Mario Maker (GrandPOOBear)! so it's actually not completely out of the realm of possibility... i think anything that has competitive aspects to it (such as scoring in a shmup, for example!) totally has grounds to become something bigger. it really comes down to how much the community wants it and how much they are willing to do to will it into existence. we saw this with Street Fighter IV, the fighting game that arguably put "fighting game as an eSport" on the map, a big part of that being because of the things that several members in the community were willing to do to elevate their game to the point where bigger businesses wanted to get involved.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by ZPScissors »

Touhou World Cup is a thing
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by tizerist »

Theoretically, a group of people here could host a competition among themselves on something like Twitch
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by KAI »

Hope not, eSports are cringe.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by MathU »

KAI wrote:Hope not, eSports are cringe.
Finally someone said it.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by bigbadboaz »

I'll say it again.

eSports :roll:
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Technicolor »

Bumping this to provide a few (very naive) ideas.

- In theory, games with stage select play could make bo3 and brackets work by incrementing the stage played on with each match. Match 1 in stage 1, match 2 in stage 2, so on. It'd help to keep tournaments shorter, and perhaps lend them a defined sense of pacing and narrative. Most tournaments would be too small to have enough rounds in practice though, so you'd probably need to alter this concept to make it work, but it could probably be done.

- For full-game tournaments, you could do something similar with difficulty levels if the game has them. Early matches being locked at lower difficulties could make competition more accessible to novice players, while also rewarding knowledge of scoring strategy across multiple difficulties. Games with narrow enough differences in scoring potential across difficulties could also simply let players choose and strategize around their difficulty selection. Touhou is a great fit for this system as well.

- For games with highly granular ship loadouts...I dunno if this would be good, but it could be interesting to introduce a bo3 counterpick system. Let players choose whatever loadout they wish first round, but when rounds 2 and 3 start, the loser of the previous round gets to pick a shot type that both players must ditto with. I like it as a means of encouraging players to specialize in obscure loadout selections and rewarding a well-rounded understanding of the game, but I can also see how players might dislike being forced off of their preferred shot types.

Basically, CosmoDreamer is the ideal esports shmup :lol: though tournaments are probably a good way to inject life into any shmup's scene. Shmups really do seem to need more social elements than they have right now.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

I'll second (err, third) that esports are cringe.

And I'll drive the point further.

Sports are cringe.

Games, digital or real, are supposed to be an activity done for fun. The sports industry has long become despicable and esports are no better.

Basically, there's nothing wrong with having a competitive scene, but the moment money becomes a factor everything goes to shit. Keep it to the (completely free) tournaments that get hosted here every now and then...
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by davyK »

Sport is putting it a bit too strongly.

Video games can be competitive but it isn't a sport.

Shmups can be run for score quite easily. I like the idea of people turning up and posting a score for competition. If a 2P mode is alternate turns then that could be used but not all have a mode like that.

It isn't really a versus genre ... we have tetris/puyo and versus fighters for that. I've seen some entertaining blind run Mario maker competitions too.

There's caravan modes too for competitive shmups....like the old Hudson competitions that were popular in Japan.

But it should be an amateur thing...done for the love of it. No sponsors needed except maybe from a game dev or publisher...but on a small scale to cover overheads.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by ryu »

KAI wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:52 am Hope not, eSports are cringe.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Rastan78 »

Ooooh watch out. Scary big money esports will come in and ruin the scene with all the sponsorships and 6 figure prize pools. Any day now.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Rastan78 »

Esports are "cringe" isn't an argument. It's an opinion.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

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Rastan78
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Rastan78 »

I'm not misrepresenting anyone's opinion. I'm making my own point. Which is worrying about the big evils of sports in the context of shmups is moot. The genre is so niche it's not going to happen.

Also if there does happen to be some big selling title in the future and Konami wants to put together a Cygni esports team full of man boobs in skin tight sponsored gam3r jerseys, then more power to them. Just don't watch. No skin off our backs.

Shmup players can keep turning their nose up at youtube creators, esports etc etc while we have one of the least healthy scenes out there.
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-Fish-
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by -Fish- »

Only way for it to work as a sport would be for the stages to be completely randomized/procedurally generated so the player reacts with their skills on the fly. Or.... for the competition to feature a new shmup no one had spent time with previously.

With a standard shmup the competition aspect would rely too much on past memorization.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by BIL »

-Fish- wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 8:12 pm Only way for it to work as a sport would be for the stages to be completely randomized/procedurally generated so the player reacts with their skills on the fly. Or.... for the competition to feature a new shmup no one had spent time with previously.

With a standard shmup the competition aspect would rely too much on past memorization.
There's things like Olympic target shooting, which one gold medallist described as "repeating the perfect shot over and over." It would work fine as a contest along those lines.

I got no opinion either way, though. I knew a guy who went full shump, it ended in tragedy.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by davyK »

-Fish- wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 8:12 pm Only way for it to work as a sport would be for the stages to be completely randomized/procedurally generated so the player reacts with their skills on the fly. Or.... for the competition to feature a new shmup no one had spent time with previously.

With a standard shmup the competition aspect would rely too much on past memorization.

yeah - but - turning up and performing on the day - and having maybe one reset/restart.

Pressure on implementation. Recorded runs? Pah!

:)
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by BIL »

davyK wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 10:38 pmyeah - but - turning up and performing on the day - and having maybe one reset/restart.

Pressure on implementation. Recorded runs? Pah!

:)
Honestly, that sounds like a legit eSport of kings. :cool: :lol: Kamui's Garegga run at Daigo's Kemonomichi was amazing, very highly-rated by Daigo and the others in attendance, too.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by XoPachi »

Competition is great and is a foundational pillar of arcade games.
eSports is a different kind of culture with it's own implications and is very corny these days. The last thing I'd ever want for this genre is for it to get financially viable in that regard.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by cfx »

Rastan78 wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 3:40 pm Shmup players can keep turning their nose up at youtube creators, esports etc etc while we have one of the least healthy scenes out there.
What does that even mean? And how would a healthy scene be of benefit to the genre?
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Lethe »

cfx wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 7:21 pm
Rastan78 wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 3:40 pm Shmup players can keep turning their nose up at youtube creators, esports etc etc while we have one of the least healthy scenes out there.
What does that even mean? And how would a healthy scene be of benefit to the genre?
Man, can you imagine what it would be like if this genre had serious investment to bring life to it? They could do a program, call it the Creators Club or something. We'd have a dozen extra Mark MSXes making soyjak thumbnails in no time.

Too bad that's only a fantasy. You can't even lab these games solo and nobody plays them after like 3 months. RIP shump.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by DMC »

I'd pay to see a streamed Hishouzame Marathon Event--whoever survives the longest wins.
Featuring tactical visits to the restrooms, sacrifices of surplus extends for brief naps, live commentary by Steven, and all that.
Of course we'd have to pay for medical doctors and psychologists to treat the wounded.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by BIL »

DMC wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 11:12 am I'd pay to see a streamed Hishouzame Marathon Event--whoever survives the longest wins.
Featuring tactical visits to the restrooms, sacrifices of surplus extends for brief naps, live commentary by Steven, and all that.
Of course we'd have to pay for medical doctors and psychologists to treat the wounded.
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Re: Shmups as an eSport

Post by Sima Tuna »

I assume you guys have seen the Kumite competitions Aktane, Rezardi and Mark have set up at various times?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BIJAKU7WUQ

I think this format is about the only way you can get the head-to-head competition to work. Unlimited restarts, no credit feeding and a timer to see how far you can get in the game with x time limit. I don't know who came up with this idea first. Whether it was Aktane, Rezardi or somebody else. Mark picked up the notion and ran a couple Kumite events after Aktane got the ball rolling. I think Shmup Junkie might have also promoted or helped with some of these.

Aktane has been holding these for... Well shit, a couple years at this point. Who knows if shmups would ever go commercial in an esports format. I think there are some obstacles there, such as the audience needing to watch two screens at once. And the layman not understanding what's happening or what skilled play even looks like in a shmup. But who knows. Other games have gone esport with similar obstacles.

The more pressing issue with shmups as esport is the very tiny amount of players and no devs or publishers pumping out high-quality NEW games. Shmups as a genre are practically dead and only kept on life support by groups like Hamster and indies.
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