Nintendo Wii and shmups

postman · Post by **postman** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:10 pm

I don't think this subject has been touched upon yet, but it just hit me today how much potential the Wii has for making some amazing shmups with the motion sensitive controller:

Think of a Xevious game where the air shots are the regular controller and the ground shots are aimed with the wi-mote.

Or a Radiant Silvergun type sword system that's activated by a quick flip of the controller.

Or just plain straight up controlling the ship with only the wi-mote (this would certainly take some getting used to).

R-Type with pod controll mapped to the motion sensor (that would be cool). Position it exactly where you want on the screen then lock it in place.

Gradius with option that rotate (circle motion), to snake (direct mimicing), to form a wall in front of you (up and down motion)......

Anyway as you can see there are many ways developers could program shmups with the Wii system.....though sadly I doubt they will be explored, with shmups being so "overlooked" these days.........I just hope Treasure gets their hands on a Wii dev kit - they are the masters of creativity in the first place, imagine what they'll come up with......

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:14 pm

disjointed gimmicks != gameplay

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:17 pm

I think controlling a ship entirely with the Wiimote would be incredibly difficult, unless they toned down the input sensitivity (which would make things feel even more unnatural). If the input was wholly precise, your ship would shake quite erratically around the screen.

Unless you're a robot, like.

mirkvid · Post by **mirkvid** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:28 pm

Wii would be a perfect fit for Smash TV! move with the nunchuk and aim with the wand!

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:41 pm

Maybe if I could plug the remote into some kind of spring-loaded base and use it as a joystick... or maybe I could just use a joystick.

I honestly would like to see some creative ideas, but I can't see many of them not falling flat on their faces.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:56 pm

It is beyond my limited imagination to see how they'll use that controller for anything but gimmicky ideas.

Look at the DS. There's hardly three deep, compelling games that absolutely, positively, need to use the Dual Screen/Stylus combination to work their magic.

Sure, there are great games on that system. But their greatness does not depend on 2 screens and touch functionality.

I think the Wii will be just as bad in that respect, but good in many others.

Gimmicks can be fun after all, if only for a short while.

(Then again, if they manage to turn that controller to do some of the stuff Tom Cruise was doing with the gloves in Minority Report, then they could be on to something big. But that is god-awesome-major technical challenge.)

zjd · Post by **zjd** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:31 am

I think the Wii will be inovative and have plenty of fun ways to take advantage of the new controller (I'm personally excited for Hide and Seek). However I don't think the Wii brings anything new to the table for shmups.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:52 am

Of course, before you can even ask this, you have to see whether anyone will bother developing shmups for the system in the first place, wiimote or no wiimote...the Gamecube doesn't exactly set a hopeful precedent in that regard.

Middlemoor · Post by **Middlemoor** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:49 am

The best idea was the Radiant Silvergun sword, but to be honest...who wants to wave a remote around to play a SHMUP?

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:55 am

I'd get tired. Imagine doing a complete run using only the sword! Somebody's bound to try it.

popawell · Post by **popawell** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:17 am

I can honestly see using the Wii remote to aim secondary guns on your ship. Imagine blasting everything from all angles and still have the capability to move your ship around.

al138 · Post by **al138** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:24 am

While the use of the remote may have detractors, I think a developer should at least try it! What would we have to loose? Even if it flopped, it would be better to have a failed gimmick shooter than none at all. Let's face it, the number of shooters has declined for each progressive hardware generation. Why limit developers further still? If someone developed a shooter for the Wii, I would likely buy it.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:56 am

al138 wrote:Even if it flopped, it would be better to have a failed gimmick shooter than none at all.

Nanostray comes to mind, although strangely enough it seems to have its fans.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:31 am

iatneH wrote:
al138 wrote:Even if it flopped, it would be better to have a failed gimmick shooter than none at all.
Nanostray comes to mind, although strangely enough it seems to have its fans.

Nanostray is by no means a failed gimmick shooter. The weapon selection via the touchscreen is unergonomic and mindbendingly stupid, counting in the fact they left real buttons unmapped. But that didn`t lead to any altered gameplay, which somehow saves the game a bit. Hey, I hated it at the start but now I sometimes pick it up. Oh, and many people can`t shut up about how the perspective makes the game oh so unplayable yet you don`t hear anyone say that about Under Defeat.

The people at Shinen are talented, but it seem that someone opened a can of toxic paint in their office three days before the game was finished and they slapped on the touch functions.

But seeing that the gyro-control in Warioware Twisted! worked incredibly sensitive and excact, I don`t think controlling 2D games with that wii remote is out of the window, too. But certainly not in your textbook top-down shmup. You wouldn`t want to play Street Fighter or Tetris this way, too.

Balzac · Post by **Balzac** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:27 am

The great thing about shooters is that they seldom use more than 3 buttons. I'd imagine most shmups would be played with the Wii controller on it's side (NES style) with the A,B and Z buttons being used to play wtihout the use of any sensors

Granted an alternate, sensor remote scheme will be mandatory just like other Wii games, but I would imagine it being thrown in as an afterthought for casual gamers much like the schemes in Metal Slug Anthology (jesus christ, who is actually going to make a throwing motion every time they need to throw a grenade?) and Smash Bros Brawl.

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:30 pm

I'll just be happy if they come through and I get the chance to play any shooters I missed on the Genesis and TG16 'cause of my silly-ass brand loyalty to the snes through that era.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:54 pm

DJ Incompetent wrote:I'll just be happy if they come through and I get the chance to play any shooters I missed on the Genesis and TG16 'cause of my silly-ass brand loyalty to the snes through that era.

I was the biggest Nintendo fanboy back in the SNES days too. I woke up a few years ago when I got a Dreamcast for cheap (my sole purpose was to play pirated dating sims, believe it or not. I wasn't into shooters back then), and after I tried Ikaruga (pirated again) on a whim, a new love affair with Sega and shooters began... and then I got a Saturn, and then a CDX, and then 3 Genesis systems, and then a 32X. I sure missed out on a lot. I got a CoreGrafx and TurboGrafx too. And for those wondering, I do have a legit DC copy of Ikaruga now, along with about a hundred other shooters on various systems...

But since I have the systems and a handful of the games I want to play, I'm not as excited about the whole virtual console thing anymore.

Wolf44 · Post by **Wolf44** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:04 pm

I think in the end the Wii controler is going to suck hardcore for "traditional" games or the genres alot of the old gaming crowd is into.

Just take a standard sized TV remot, tilt it and hold it in your hand for about an hour or so, can anyone honestly say they will have a comfotable controler ??? The GC and PS2 controlers are very very comfortable in your hands and both have their good and bad features, the Wii for Schmups, 2d FIghters and 2d platformer gamers is just going to be pure feces, sorry that is just the truth!

Its virtualy an over sized NES contnoler and those things are pathetic when it comes to comfort.

Where it will shine is probably on 3d adventure/action games and I am thinking it may possibly rival a keyboard and mouse when it comes to FPS.

I plan to pick up a Wii for the downloadable 80s-90s games I missed and for the Wii RE game ( since it wont handle RE5 if it does it will be butchered ), I plan to use my GC controler on it if for most snes, tg 16 and genesis games.

I dunno if some third party will come out with a ps2 converter but I plan to order a HRAP next week and that would be very nice to use on the Wii or PS3, if not I guess I can use it on mame or other pc emus to play classics.

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:19 pm

Wolf44 wrote:I think in the end the Wii controler is going to suck hardcore for "traditional" games or the genres alot of the old gaming crowd is into.

Just take a standard sized TV remot, tilt it and hold it in your hand for about an hour or so, can anyone honestly say they will have a comfotable controler ??? The GC and PS2 controlers are very very comfortable in your hands and both have their good and bad features, the Wii for Schmups, 2d FIghters and 2d platformer gamers is just going to be pure feces, sorry that is just the truth!

They took care of that already. No worries.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:26 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:Of course, before you can even ask this, you have to see whether anyone will bother developing shmups for the system in the first place, wiimote or no wiimote...the Gamecube doesn't exactly set a hopeful precedent in that regard.

MileStone are already officially signed on to develop for Wii.. and in fact, a "vertical shooting game" was mentioned on their future projects list.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:36 pm

Kiken wrote:MileStone are already officially signed on to develop for Wii.. and in fact, a "vertical shooting game" was mentioned on their future projects list.

I guess that's a start, and it's good to see them continue their support after releasing Chaos Field and Radirgy on the GC, but I wonder if it'll be a repeat of the GC in the sense that companies like Milestone are rare exceptions...in any event, methinks at this point it's impossible to predict all that much in this regard, I'm just curious about this sort of thing because the PS2 utterly dominated the other 2 systems of its generation when it came to shmup releases...it'd take a quite a shift for another company to get the majority of the support in the upcoming console war, if any of the 3 has much support for the genre at all.

Savory · Post by **Savory** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:00 pm

Isn't the Wii supposed to be the cheapest next gen console to develop for? I think it would actually make a lot of sense for traditional 2D shooters to appear on it since Sony probably won't allow them for the PS3 and they'd be liklier to appear on Live Arcade for the 360 (which isn't a bad idea...). Nintendo isn't forcing developers to use the motion sensing junk in the wiimote so I don't see why they couldn't control normally. Afterall SNK-Playmore is bringing Metal Slug Anthology to the Wii and while they did say they'll be using the motion stuff somehow, I think it would be insane if they didn't include the option to use standard controls.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:06 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:I guess that's a start, and it's good to see them continue their support after releasing Chaos Field and Radirgy on the GC, but I wonder if it'll be a repeat of the GC in the sense that companies like Milestone are rare exceptions...in any event, methinks at this point it's impossible to predict all that much in this regard, I'm just curious about this sort of thing because the PS2 utterly dominated the other 2 systems of its generation when it came to shmup releases...it'd take a quite a shift for another company to get the majority of the support in the upcoming console war, if any of the 3 has much support for the genre at all.

I think the PS2 will continue to be the console of choice for shmup releases well into 2008. I really don't see PS2 support ending before then. Afterall; the console has very solid market penetration, at this point is relatively cheap to produce software for, the hardware itself is very affordable, and the next gen piece of hardware is backwards compatible.

I just don't really see many shmup companies needing to produce on this new generation at the moment.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:09 pm

Kiken wrote:I just don't really see many shmup companies needing to produce on this new generation at the moment.

Wasn't there that comment from what's-his-name from Arika sometime back about a Ketsui port (for some reason or other) not being possible on a PS2...? I might recall incorrectly. In any event, I see your larger point, and you may well be correct...heck, since I own a JPS2 and have no plans to buy any of the next-gen systems, I HOPE you're right.

Wolf44 · Post by **Wolf44** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:12 pm

Ah yea that Wii controler in the vein of nes/snes style, personaly I think its archaic feces, no handles and the analog ( which I use alot ) really looks bad, why no handles ???

Looking at that thing I can already tell its going to be "awkward" when tilting your thumbs and hands arched downward just to get a good angle hold on them.

Guess they have no learned their lesson on what makes a good controler, they had a good start with the GC one, button layout aside, this is just poo lol.

I think PS2 has the best layout to date and the GC probably has the most comfort.

As far as schmups, lets hope we get a bunch of snes jp region titles ( supposedly that will be available ) and classics rather then just 1st pty snes/n64 junk, would be awsome if konami, capcom and SE released a shitload of classics we all know and love, for new schmups thats going to depends on sales and who the third parties feel they will support, chances are Wii will take off till the ps3 prices come down ( about a year- year and a half ) but once Sony gets their iron fist grip on third party developers I think its safe to say Wii will be left in the dust. Either way I plan to buy both.

D · Post by D » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:21 pm

Nintendo hates 2D.
N64 and GC, I rest my case.
For 2D I'd say PS3.
PS2, I rest my case.
It would offcourse be great to have a cheap WII for 2D games

, but I don't see it happening

Savory · Post by **Savory** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:28 pm

Since when does Nintendo hate 2D? Sony was the one who supposedly had the policy against 2D games in the US. Sure there aren't a lot of 2D games on the N64 or GC, but if PS2 had the volume/userbase of the GC, the ratio of 2D to 3D games would probably be pretty similar. I can't really blame Nintendo for follwoing the market trend of creating 3D games since unfortunately that's what sells.

Bkeela · Post by **Bkeela** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:34 pm

I don't care if the spiritual successor to Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga is released exclusively for the Revolution - I refuse to wave a controller around like a wanker. NEVER.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:48 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:
Kiken wrote:I just don't really see many shmup companies needing to produce on this new generation at the moment.
Wasn't there that comment from what's-his-name from Arika sometime back about a Ketsui port (for some reason or other) not being possible on a PS2...? I might recall incorrectly. In any event, I see your larger point, and you may well be correct...heck, since I own a JPS2 and have no plans to buy any of the next-gen systems, I HOPE you're right.

He stated that the PS2 was inadequate for handling the ludicrous practice mode that they (Arika) wished to include. A bare-bones arcade port could be done on the PS2 though... there would just be a lengthy pause between stages for loading (probably like the PSOne port of Dodonpachi).

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:01 pm

Well, here's hoping for lowered standards, eh?