M2 ShotTriggers DDP Daioujou Rinne Tensei

[evil_ash_xero]

Toaplan aside, what next for Shot Triggers? I think everyone wanted DOJ and now you have it, what next?

A DonPachi/Do DonPachi two pack.
Armed Police Batrider
Battle Bakraid

Of course there are others, but that's my "please oh please put these out".
I really resent them buying the Toaplan license, as that's probably what has slowed down games that "more"
shmup fans actually want.

Or they could finally release the game everyone wants from the Toaplan library. Batsugun.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I just don't think I can learn routes that I haven't worked out myself. I'm not really entertaining the idea of clearing this since even dodging normal boss patterns in this is a bit of a game of roulette. It's a decent game. the difficulty is way down from Ketsui but far harder than lots of others, and the scoring/strict memorisation of routes through 3+ don't help it. Combo scoring and associated hyper resource by it's nature are absolute aids to anyone but those on a designated route past the 2nd stage.

This is a genre-wide problem.

I may have mentioned it at some point before?

[sanbancha]

Toaplan aside, what next for Shot Triggers? I think everyone wanted DOJ and now you have it, what next?

On my Cave list, DOJ was unquestionably at the top, and M2 didn't disappoint. Next, I'd love Switch or Steam ports of:

Mushihimesama Futari
Ketsui
Pink Sweets

[Jonpachi]

dodging normal boss patterns in this is a bit of a game of roulette

I assume you mean this is a personal struggle? The boss patterns are very learnable, and as a long-time DOJ player I tend to view bosses a moment to "relax" a bit as I can stop worrying about chaining and just focus on the sequences. There's no gotchas here, but your ability to understand how Hyper Rank influences their patterns is a key point of mastery. For example, Stage 2's boss can be "easy" or "mean" depending on how much you've Hypered on your path toward it, and the new tools in the M2 port help elucidate this more than ever.

[DrTrouserPlank]

dodging normal boss patterns in this is a bit of a game of roulette

I assume you mean this is a personal struggle? The boss patterns are very learnable, and as a long-time DOJ player I tend to view bosses a moment to "relax" a bit as I can stop worrying about chaining and just focus on the sequences. There's no gotchas here, but your ability to understand how Hyper Rank influences their patterns is a key point of mastery. For example, Stage 2's boss can be "easy" or "mean" depending on how much you've Hyper'd on your path toward it, and the new tools in the M2 port help elucidate this more than ever.

Well, the boss patterns in this game are just tight and multi-directional early on. unless you know some sweet spot you are going to die to them "randomly" a good percentage of times even when you know the drill. You need the "negating setup" which survival players won't have
It's about knowing the 5 pixel spot you can initiate a pattern from to render it a tap-tap-tap in one direction. Hypers and rank I remove from the equation since anyone playing for survival can negate that bullshit instantly by bombing their hyper with the bombs that they will likely die with anyway. I mean, hyper is the poison that survival players have to manage more than score players, since the "survival" hyper creates more chaos that you wanted in the first place but also allows speedkilling. It is useless for bosses nonetheless.

The whole hyper bomb duality and the rank is just terrible for someone who isn't on the approved route. It's a game that only allows you to play if you know the route... and by that point you probably know how to combo a good amount if it as well.

[Jonpachi]

I think I understand where you're coming from, but lumping "Survival Play" and "Just Bomb That Shit" together seems contradictory. Yes, you cool down Hyper Rank, but you're not doing yourself any favors by giving up key resources that would aid in your, well, survival. It's short term gains for long-term pain, and ignoring the basic systems of the game begs the question of why you're playing it all. I can understand how the game feels very strict, but it's not R-Type. Since this new port came out, I've been focusing on a pure "survival clear" myself by only worrying about score to the point where I can earn both extends, and I've been consistently making it to the end of Stage 5 with a large amount of improv and basic skill play. You gotta pay the bills to learn it, that's real, and this game does ask a LOT of the player, but I don't think it's quite at early Irem levels of "go outside this tiny box and you die" sort of cruelty. Learn level 1 and 2 juuuuust enough to hit that mid-level roadway in Stage 2 with 4 or so banked Hypers, go nuts, get both extends, and that's all the strict chaining you really need for a basic survival clear.

[qmish]

Hm. Some of boss pattern variations really feel random to me.

For example, in 1st phase of Stage 2 boss, with those "over crossing" patterns... i can play more or less similar during several attemps, but at times patterns would be more tiresome/uncomfortable (and i'll really struggle with moving through, very often would bump into smth), and and other times more doable (with more "visible" ornaments to "wave together with"). And that was with state-practice, so starting condition was always same.
I don't really understand this guy, lol. Perhaps he really begs player to hyper or bomb Funnily, I usually don't have as much trouble with his 2nd and 3rd phases (even though "blue bullets spam" can be a labyrinth of misfortune, but usually you finish him off before it gets too tight).

"Personal struggles" is also something that always could be a thing, though. Like, even after playing DOJ for a big time, last (not sure) phase of Stage 1 boss still makes me feel nervous and demands bigger concentration then other phases (and I do not mean the powered-up version of him when you destruct left and right thingies so he goes berserk, no, i just mean vanilla attacks), so I usually try quicken the kill via help of pointblank after the phase where he vomits red burst directed at your "moment before" position.

I was abandoning this lovely game for a while (even though got acknowledged with it just around the time I came to this forum), so over the years I was always "on" and "off", and well... after big pause you always get rusty
So rusty that you start dying just on the 1-1 stupidly, haha. So yeah, ofc, practice makes perfect... but there are also always so called... "walls" that you hit with head, for sure.

For me currently it's stage 3's midboss, I think. I finally became more or less understanding how to get through first half of stage 3 (which was crazy for me for a long time), but that beautiful red machine gives me a fight I haven't mastered yet. Usually I destroy his right hand, and then left hand, and then he does "moving around danmaku" pattern that is more painful for me... Because you need to "step over" bullets while moving meanwhile the whole pattern also rotates around - easy to bump into and "oh no!!!". I see some people try to speedkill him via pointblanking, but when I try that I always fall into trap of "pincer attack" because at the moment left/right hands exlode they somehow give you pretty scary bullets from both sides which i cant escape mor often than not.

Which means yeaaaaah I have so long road ahead it's crazy, but hey why not It really feels nice when you even overcome some "small" things, despite how sad you might be of not conquering the game "in time". I think I passed through era when I was super frustrated with myself. So I enjoy it when I can.

Sorry this random stuff from my mind is more about DOJ itself but it was kinda a response to previous posts.
In the end, I want to quote Dark Souls...

"don't give up, skeleton!"
=)

[Jonpachi]

For me currently it's stage 3's midboss, I think. I finally became more or less understanding how to get through first half of stage 3 (which was crazy for me for a long time), but that beautiful red machine gives me a fight I haven't mastered yet. Usually I destroy his right hand, and then left hand, and then he does "moving around danmaku" pattern that is more painful for me... Because you need to "step over" bullets while moving meanwhile the whole pattern also rotates around - easy to bump into and "oh no!!!". I see some people try to speedkill him via pointblanking, but when I try that I always fall into trap of "pincer attack" because at the moment left/right hands exlode they somehow give you pretty scary bullets from both sides which i cant escape mor often than not.

Don't destroy the hands first! Lock in at center, and move with it while doing your best to keep your laser on the center mass. After enough damage, both of the arms with detonate at the same time, and he'll do a final spread pattern that's pretty easy to navigate. If you go arm-by-arm it's MUCH harder. Keep on the "head" and you'll melt him!

[qmish]

Thanks for advice, I'll try.

Though, if you'd wanna laugh, I think my behaviour of "start with destroying right hand" was because me being on the far right of screen was somehow more comfortable for evading bullets in first place. I know that if you stay in center, you'll be destroying "barrels" that spawn those "3-sphere molecule" thingies, but during that I was more struggling with patterns coming from left and right hands, so usually I was instead staying at right and slowly going up from below, so "molecules" go to the point I was before (below me) and bullets under one hand were more comfortable to "go around" for me, and at the time I almost reach the right hand itself, the hand is destroyed. After that left hand does new patter ("doble row of circles that change curve of movement, i think), so usually i was flying to "below left arm" and fire unless attack tries to reach me, but there is often a window to dodge through... then switching from laser back into shot makes it "finish off" left hand, and then yeah... "head alone' and more angry/tricky patterns as you say.

(I just felt describing what I was doing because I didnt have gif or video of my attempts).

For now I'll be trying to follow your advice and see how it would work, but as I said when i stay at center at middle height, usually main bullets from both hands are more troublesome for me, and when attempting to risky pointblank, well, I get punished haha.

Thanks again for discussion and strategies... I'm glad that M2 re-release made the fire wavedance again

edit:

And more thing. Damn, all those boss nuances and what not are sooooo goood, y'know!
ALL HAIL THE STG GENRE



character action etc. is also cool though

[slateman]

Stage 2's boss can be "easy" or "mean" depending on how much you've Hypered on your path toward it, and the new tools in the M2 port help elucidate this more than ever.

DOJ is my favorite shmup ever, hands down, and this port gives us (almost) everything we could possibly want. The tools presented here give us so much we never knew fully about invincibility, how rank works, and so much more. I *love* my PS2 port - it's where I first played DOJ, but this is the version that replaces all others and I couldn't be happier about it.

Anyone have any guesses as to why we didn't get Tamashii as well? I know it's more of a completionist thing, but it would have been cool. Maybe b/c it was different hardware and not particularly noteworthy in the big picture.

[Ms. Tea]

On my Cave list, DOJ was unquestionably at the top, and M2 didn't disappoint. Next, I'd love Switch or Steam ports of:

Mushihimesama Futari
Ketsui
Pink Sweets

Ketsui feels the least likely since they already did the PS4 port years ago, and they haven't shown any interest in going back to port those older M2STG releases now that they're doing Switch. Maybe the Switch 2 would give them an excuse to go through the M2STG back catalogue? Mushi Futari and Pink Sweets both having good 360 releases (and M2 having done the 360 version of Futari!) feels like it means they could happen though.

Anyone have any guesses as to why we didn't get Tamashii as well? I know it's more of a completionist thing, but it would have been cool. Maybe b/c it was different hardware and not particularly noteworthy in the big picture.

Mainly the different hardware. The PGM2's hardware is significantly different, and I couldn't see them doing an entire PGM2 emulator just to have Tamashii as a bonus game. It'd have been cool, but I don't think it was ever likely.

(And, much as I'd love to see Oriental Legend 2 and KoV 3 get home ports, neither of those are on M2's radar. It's not like writing a PGM2 emulator would give them something they could use in later releases.)

[slateman]

On my Cave list, DOJ was unquestionably at the top, and M2 didn't disappoint. Next, I'd love Switch or Steam ports of:

Mushihimesama Futari
Ketsui
Pink Sweets

When these types of conversations come up, Futari is always overlooked b/c of the 360 port. But man, when you see the job M2 did w/ DOJ, can you imagine!?!?! (OK, fine...DOJ is my favorite ever, Futari is #2, so I'm terribly, terribly jaded). DOJ/Futari/DDP. That's my holy trinity.

For some stupid reason, I have a soft spot for MMP, but the combo with Pink Sweets is a great package, despite it being locked to a prior console. It's such a tragedy that DOJ and Ketsui didn't make it to Steam. I almost still can't believe DOJ got the M2 treatment. As hyperbolic as it may sound, this is the greatest shmup love-letter ever. Give Futari a similar treatment and - I could die a happy man.

[rtw]

Time to start asking M2 for a PC port on Twitter

https://twitter.com/M2_game

Really enjoying this release and also the various tips people are posting. Is there a beginners guide to Daioujou I should be aware about ?

[qmish]

Is there a beginners guide to Daioujou I should be aware about ?

This appears often in YouTube recommendations for me.
https://youtu.be/4g-bvE8RI5A

Haven't watched it yet. There are also corrections pinned in comment section.

[lukk]

Hm. Some of boss pattern variations really feel random to me.

Stage 2 boss is an asshole. You practice it and think you've got it, then he bamboozles you with the needles three runs in a row, this keeps happening, now you're traumatized, rinse and repeat. The first phase is just practice & getting a feel for the needle hitboxes. When he's switching phases immediately go up to point blank it in the leg with laser, this should tip the scales in your favor so he dies before you get caved in by the final blue spam attack.

Stage 3 midboss: takes only a few seconds if you have a hyper. Go face to face when it comes in, hyper and use the i-frames to get on top of it while lasering, let go of laser for a bit to back down quicker (this is the only tricky part), dodge a few bullets while lasering and that's about it. You can practice it in arcade challenge, it's very consistent once you've got the timing down. If you don't have a hyper just point blank it and back down, doesn't take long either way.

[rtw]

Is there a beginners guide to Daioujou I should be aware about ?

This appears often in YouTube recommendations for me.
https://youtu.be/4g-bvE8RI5A

Thank you!

[DrTrouserPlank]

Yea, that 3rd stage is utter horse shit. Pretty much as close to zero percent chance of clearing that without losing a life as anything. I'd say even getting a 1cc on the stage would be difficult. Fail to speedkill anything and you are fucked, too fucking long and samey as well so it's difficult to remember where you even are.

Absolute Caribou balls.

[ASDR]

Toaplan aside, what next for Shot Triggers? I think everyone wanted DOJ and now you have it, what next?

I want Batrider from M2 so bad. Never even had a mediorce port.

[gray117]

Dodonpachi...
...it really is about time. And if anyone could get us the campaign version it'd be m2.

I'd like to see ibara + bl/kuro again and gadgeted...

...

I'd imagine batrider could be more likely/realistic or m2-ish.

Shame about the not great batsugun saturn tribute port otherwise that could have been a top candidate...

[pablumatic]

Shame about the not great batsugun saturn tribute port otherwise that could have been a top candidate...

M2 Batsugun will happen...eventually. Since its part of the Toaplan library and M2 is slowly putting all their games out with gadgets. Maybe late 2025?

[DrTrouserPlank]

Out of this shit, ketsui, esp.ra.de and dangun feveron which is the easiest clear?

I'm assuming it's dangun feveron or esp.ra.de?

I like ketsui, but I've seen stage 3 or maybe it was 4 and I know that's impossible so that's out. This is decent, but I don't like how difficult some of the boss phases are (you are still going to lose lives even after thousand of practice attempts), feveron is alright but it's a different type of game. Esp.ra.de seems pretty nice but I don't know how batshit loopy it gets. (edit: it's pretty bad, just played to stage 3 or so and that's got random deaths written all over it)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Out of this shit, ketsui, esp.ra.de and dangun feveron which is the easiest clear?

For a straight 1CC of the first loop? Dangun is very, very hard, well above the others. The high speeds are extremely demanding and resources are considerably tighter vs DOJ, Ketsui, or Esp.Ra.De. Apparently all three of those are considered roughly the same as far as difficulty goes, but I've never cleared Esp.Ra.De; the final levels and especially the final boss are extremely demanding IMO. Ketsui's last level is rough but there's an extra life there in addition to the S3 one, and the final boss isn't unreasonably hard.

If you're finding Cave games too tough, you don't have to keep banging your head against 'em. There's plenty of shmups out there that are easier to clear but remain plenty fun, like Rangerdog or Vastynex.

[ASDR]

Out of this shit, ketsui, esp.ra.de and dangun feveron which is the easiest clear?

I love Ketsui but it's very hard. I never got that much into Dangun Feveron but the game has some stupid fast segments, I doubt I would've ever learned those. Esp.Ra.De isn't exactly easy but nothing about it ever seemed unreasonable to me. There was never a 'oh fuck this' moment for me unlike the other two. I'd say Dangun > Ketsui > Esp.Ra.De in terms of difficulty. The M2 ports of Ketsui / Esp.Ra.De are amazing!

[Lethe]

For a straight 1CC of the first loop? Dangun is very, very hard, well above the others. The high speeds are extremely demanding and resources are considerably tighter vs DOJ, Ketsui, or Esp.Ra.De.

A bit rich me saying this, but people overrate Feveron IMO. There's a shock factor to the faster bullets until you realize you need to remember where things spawn instead of dodging. You get up to 18 bombs in a run which will obliterate any intimidating parts and the game's, what, 17-18 minutes long?
There's some funny pure survival footage out there, but the best one is this recent run by BOS where he picks a slow ship speed, ignores the discomen (causing the rank to max out, bullets are like double speed in stage 5), and still gets a no-miss with clean, consistent routing. Makes it look a hell of a lot easier than most games flat out.

[hamfighterx]

Shame about the not great batsugun saturn tribute port otherwise that could have been a top candidate...

Batsugun S-Tribute release is not that bad, it's reported at 4-6 frames of lag. Not perfect, but very playable and CC did add some enhancements like basic "gadgets" and excellent remixed music. Personally, I think some people give Electric Underground complaints a little too much attention because dude is opinionated and loud about it, and that tends to get parroted throughout the echo chamber of this niche community, but I digress...

Besides, as pablumatic said, a deluxe M2 port of Batsugun is almost a certainty to arrive eventually via the Toaplan Arcade Garage line (assuming it finishes as anticipated). Just remains to be seen exactly when that is; wouldn't be surprising to me if Batsugun is the final volume of an 8-volume series, where they've currently only been releasing 1 volume per year. Given the TGS Outzone and Tatsujin Oh displays, I would not be shocked to see M2 bump it up to two volumes a year (I could see a Vol.4 with Tatsujin/Tatsujin Oh and Vol 5. with Outzone/Fixeight both arriving in 2024). But even if they did two in 2024 and two in 2025, that might mean no Batsugun until 2026 at the earliest if it's the final volume. Or if they stick to a single Toaplan release each year (with 2 STG per release) and still do finish the series, might be as late as 2028!

With that uncertain timing in mind, I'm glad we got the 2023 City Connection version even if it's not absolutely perfect. It's not a bad holdover at all while waiting 3-5 more years for M2 to get to it.

In the meantime, if input lag is your priority (and you aren't playing on MAME or PCB), Bitwave will get to Batsugun soon. It's coming February 1, 2024 as part of their recently announced third wave of Toaplan PC ports: https://www.bitwavegames.com/games/batsugun. While Bitwave's releases reportedly have had other bugs, they're pretty much universally praised for their focus on eliminating lag.

[Jonpachi]

Out of this shit, ketsui, esp.ra.de and dangun feveron which is the easiest clear?

I'm assuming it's dangun feveron or esp.ra.de?

I like ketsui, but I've seen stage 3 or maybe it was 4 and I know that's impossible so that's out. This is decent, but I don't like how difficult some of the boss phases are (you are still going to lose lives even after thousand of practice attempts), feveron is alright but it's a different type of game. Esp.ra.de seems pretty nice but I don't know how batshit loopy it gets. (edit: it's pretty bad, just played to stage 3 or so and that's got random deaths written all over it)

I'd say Esprade as easiest, then Ketsui, and then Dangun (at least in my personal experience). Esprade will boil down to how many resources you need for the Lady Garra fight, and once you can finish her off in a life or two you'll be done with it quick. Ketsui's back-half is a bastard, and once you get to Helicopter-Clone Hell you're in for a few looooong gym sessions before you feel truly comfortable in that section. It took me a month of daily play to get Ketsui, while Esprade took a couple weeks. Dangun escapes me. I've only cleared the M2 Arrange mode and don't feel close to clearing arcade defaults.

[rtw]

Batsugun just announced from Bitwave for gog and steam.

https://store.steampowered.com/franchis ... ist/116815

[qmish]

Personally, I think some people give Electric Underground complaints a little too much attention because dude is opinionated and loud about it, and that tends to get parroted throughout the echo chamber of this niche community, but I digress...

Back in days I sort of "gave up" on Mark_MSX videos after that disasterious R-Type Final 2 review which was the most biased thing I've ever watched (also comment section was wonky, reminded me of popular e-celeb sheeps). Even my friend [who is strictly R-Type Delta fan] was not pleased with that review. I think I even stopped watching Electric Underground for a while and instead switched onto ShmupJunkie (who is excellent and resonates with me more personally). Still, I was grateful to Electric Underground for all that "promotion"/"passion" work he was already doing for years.

When DOJ M2 relase came out I've watched Electric Underground's video and actually enjoyed it. Sure, I cringed at idea that City Connection releases are "pizza couriers who drop pizza on the floor" but I decided to let it slide. So guess I found my peace with Mark's content finally. But yeah, he is very opinionated and the thing is... even if you love his videos, you don't have to blindly follow/agree with everything. It's perfectly normal when influencer/senpai/whatever is not 100% same tastes as you.

And of course "being passionate" is his biggest advantage, I could really felt the absolute happiness of him finally receiving m2 version of DOJ he dreamt for years

tl;dr
Let's appreciate all stg content makers!

[hamfighterx]

For sure. I totally respect Mark_MSX's obvious passion for the genre, but I do find his style (mostly the frequent negativity that I feel is sometimes overblown) a bit offputting sometimes. But he can do what he wants, and I appreciate that he's out there using his own unique voice to create stuff for the community. I just know that I have to be in the right frame of mind to watch his videos.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

On stage 1, what are the requirements to have a Hyper power-up appear before reaching the first boss (this is in regards to playing the DDP-DOJ BL version, of course)? It seems like you can earn up to three Hypers on just stage 1 alone, right?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~