Bliss-Box bridge question thread any controller any console

[ulao]

Hi all, wanted to open up a thread for questions related to the Bridge. Trying real hard not to make this a sales pitch so leaving out links for that reason. I would hope anyone can find it on their own. I imagine there are lots of question to whom it may concern. If this thread is unwanted and must be removed, I understand but is not intended as a pitch. Though I figure a description is warranted here.


First I fully can appreciate this is not something for everyone. This is a niche product targeted to the niche-minded. If you own a lot of consoles and like to play with other controllers, or use what you like, this maybe for you. This is no really a one solution either, so its not really for single scenarios as it can get costly. In some ways it can save you money by not having to buy high priced controllers. but again, its no good for that one purpose. This product was made to give people options using the success of the main Bliss-Box adapter.


Please also know that all you need it the Bridge as the cables are open source, and the interface to the Bridge is open source. but you will need to take care of these things to use it. Alternatively you can buy all that you need. It is all about options, don't need them, do not read on.


4 parts are required.

1. A cable form the Bridge to a console. If the console is supported and USB, this cable comes with the Bridge. Other console cables can be bought or made.

2. The Bridge, this item is not open source. It will read LLAPI, an open source signal most any adapter could generate. If there is an adapter out there you want to use, let me know and I can talk to the author of this adapter and see about getting it to speak LLAPI.

3. the input device, Current devices are the Gamer-Pro, the Gamer-Pro jr, the Game Pro Advanced, the 4-Play in signal player mode.

4. Obviously a controller.




What is it?

The Bridge Connects a 4-play (in single mode), the Gamer-Pro, or a GPA to a console. This way you can use any controller you want, on any console...



How it works:

The Bliss-Box Gamer-Pro, GPA, and 4-Play are USB devices that are intended for a USB host. However in the same way the BlisSTer works, all Bliss-Box devices can speak a universal protocol over two wires. The communication can take place over the USB lines without disturbing USB hardware. When you connect the Bliss-Box Bridge to a Gamer-Pro or 4-Play, it goes in to LLAPI mode sending controller data at a fast rate of 500us per request. That is twice as fast as the fastest USB poll-rate. The Bridge takes this data and then speaks to the console. The console now controls the polling rate (typically 16ms) and while the console waits for the next poll, the Bliss-Box gathers the payload. If the console wants to poll faster the Bridge will send when it is ready. There are a few games that do this. 007 on the GC for example at the menu polls at a 100us rate. It does freak the Bridge out but you can still navigate thru the menus. These situations will come up and firmware can always be adjusted to compensate.



What also can it do

The Bridge is not only an option for console, it will also work on a PC and allows xinput. There are many ways to use it on a PC (PS3, as xinput, as a switch and more. The USB rate is much faster then the GP/4P adapter because it uses USB 2.0. You can actually make your older adapters run faster with the Bridge.

[maryshuler]

What consoles are compatible with the Bridge?

[ulao]

That would be difficult to answer in text. It maybe easier to list what does not work
Here is a link to the info https://bliss-box.net/support/ just select the "bridge" tab.
If that is removed here is a list of the not and planned support consoles. Most others are already working.


Famicom (Nintendo is supported), this will be when I find one.
PC-FX
CD32
NEOGEO
Fairchild Channel F (if there is power on the port)
FM towns (if there is power on the port)
Pippin (maybe too slow.)
Vectrex
nuon

[orange808]

I see two hops between my game controller and the console, so can you share what the real world worst case latency will look like?

[ASDR]

Just wanted to say that I have a GamerPro and pretty much the full set of cables and I'm quite impressed, it's a sweet solution. I had totally forgotten about the bridge product and assumed it was either out or cancelled and I've just been out of the loop.

Famicom would be great. I have the Hori/Hudson 3rd party controllers and while they're better than the native controllers I'd still like something with a Sega style Dpad. Same for Neo Geo, still not 100% comfortable with arcade sticks for certain genres and wouldn't mind playing with a pad on mine.

In any case, cool to see this is coming!

[ulao]

"I see two hops between my game controller and the console, so can you share what the real world worst case latency will look like?"

Well it does not come down to any of the adapter, its is the console that is the issue. and anyone that really studies this will realize that in itself it is not reverent in what we call a normal case.

You have 3 polls

1 the controller, most are quite fast, I happen to have a few captures.


*****************************************************
* Speed tests
* PSX (full protocal ) 350 total us.
* SATURN 12ms (mission stick bottle neck) other wise the analog does 500us (digital 300).
* Sega 1.5 ms
* TG16 20us (very fast)
* 5200 500us (pending trakball)
* most retro around 1ms.
* Pippin 5ms
* 3d0 I think needs 500ms
* ark controller need an extra 6ms, depends on dial position.
* other nes pads takee about 800us with our clock speeds.
* wii is down to 1.5 from the 2ms is needed with 400us waits. (its set to 200us now and working ok)
* DC remains under a ms
* GC is sitting at 960, its uner 1ms!

2) the Bridge its is fixed at 500us

3) the console, all I worked with poll once a frame, so 16.6ms there are cases where they poll faster but few at that.

The entire change works like this....
Consoles poll
Bridge answers ( never exceeds 1ms)
now we have 16.6 minus the 1ms from the above line before it wants another set of data
do controller work ( varies 12m worse case but more commonly just 1ms or less )
do bridge work ( 500)
at this point the worst case is 13.5 ms. But your asking for it if you use slow stuff. Still under 16.6....


by the time you add that up, we are still ready to talk because the consoles poll rate. Remember the only thing the game cares about in most all cases is what is the button states before I draw to the screen. Otherwise it does not care. Yes there are special cases, like Tempest. And there are going to be configs where that does not work like; Tempest with a mission stick, but those are limitations far outside of the Bridge.

I hope that helped, if not let me know I can re-explaine any of it in more detail.

[ulao]

hey ASDR, thx!

The Famicon should already work I just have no way to say, YES, it does. It would require a nes to fc adapter cable.

[orange808]

If I miss a polling time, I have to wait for the next one.

You've assumed a frame at about sixty frames per second for polling intervals. So, I guess we'll go with that. That depends on how often a specific console polls and updates the hardware controller registers. After that, the software has to check the console's controller state registers in the game loop. Most likely, the state of the hardware registers will be buffered into ram for the game program. That allows me to error check the input (in case of an unexpected value from the hardware), avoid timing difficulties, and parse the controller into a convenient data representation for my game logic.

I guess for convenience, we can assume one frame of latency from a theoretical console and game; so, we'll use 16.6ms for this example.

In that scenario, the worst case could never ever be under 16.6ms and I'm happy to explain why.

If I miss a poll from the game loop (that apparently occurs every 16.6ms) by a very small amount, my next opportunity could never ever possibly arrive before the game loop checks again. In this case, that's still ~16.6 ms and we still haven't added any time for those two hops on my wire.

So, it couldn't be significantly below 16.6ms in your scenario.

[ulao]

That depends on how often a specific console polls and updates the hardware controller registers.

No assumption here. If I did that I'd have all kinds of problems. My point was that every console I worked with polls once a frame. Believe me I was skeptical of this. but each console requires days of toying with. Again, there are cases where console poll faster, but seldom and few. As a rule, every supported console so far polls once a frame.

So, it couldn't be significantly below 16.6ms in your scenario.

The numbers supplied above were to try to provide details to answer the question, not over all latency numbers. Also these are not staggered hops. They are on their own chips, so there is over lap. Let's get to those in details in a bit. Also keep in mind we are talking about 100's of combinations here. It woudl be much easier to give a single example scenario. If for example we say the game cube controller on the sega console, I could say its add 1.5 ms to the possible "mis-button window". Really we are not talking about lag here, its more of a possible miss frame condition.

After that, the software has to check the console's controller state registers in the game loop.

Agreed, and the Bridge is just like a pass thru. Granted it takes more time, but the console gives us 16.6ms break to do it in.

In that scenario, the worst case could never ever be under 16.6ms and I'm happy to explain why.

Well sure but that is a known thing. Regardless of the Bridge, the use can always be 16ms too early.


I can respond better now that I know what you are looking for. Yes the Bridge adds some time maybe 2ms, see the chart notes. As you know we need to expect some extra time with added hardware. This is a given, it is fair to call this latency in that it adds time but it does not append timing to the polling. So I do not think its fair to call it "latency" but maybe perceivable latency. It just extends the "mis-button window" that will skip frames.

https://postimg.cc/SJfsRk7t

This is the take-a-way from the image. What I refer to as the "mis-button window". Also, It changes per console, per controller. Each console has its own native window, from a few us to 1-2 ms in some cases and that chance grows with adding things like the Bridge. but in all cases if you stay under 16ms total growth you will never exceed 1 frame lag. The same thing happens on the real console. The Bridge can not do anything outside of the consoles limitations. So I was not saying the total latency was X, I was only providing details and it looks like you sorted that out on your own.


but I'm not sure this is or ever was a big deal? Some games had poor timing in them, SMB4 had 4 frames of latency built in to the the game ( from what I read, never tested that) yet, no one complained about that game. The consoles all poll once a frame, because they learned long ago that 1 frame is not going to hurt anything. The only thing the developer was concerned of, is polling before the frame ( unlike PC ). On games where it mattered, like tempest, duckhunt they poll faster.

My point was that I can see exactly when the real hardware polls the controller. This can not be hidden. The Bridge simply reacts at the same time. Yes the polling is longer as stated above.

On a PC the polling is not attached to a video frame. it is independent, so its best to poll as fast as you can. Now it become latency IMO because there is no tie to the video poll rate. No one knows when it is polling. If the USB polls once ever 16ms (USB 1.1) and the video updates at 16.6, then you may easily and often get 32+ lag. You also get latency on the new TVs as we all know, That can be really bad. IMO these older consoles had no issues, and room to spare. no one ever notices a few frames lag and it was always there. The Switch has 4ms lag; it gets worse over the years not better

This was also proven on the mister, and boy did it cause fuss. The LLAPI code proved you only need to poll once a frame, after doing that everyone lost there lunch over how perfect it was. Some said the game predicted the buttons. No latency was changed, still 16ms but now its on time. Poof, every one was happy. Until the mister Nazi's found out and then came fast polling and yeah, that saga.



Here are a few traces from sega and jag
https://postimg.cc/ZBB13Mx9
this is where the wires are pulsing to get controller payloads.


I'm not saying the Bridge is perfect, but in a normal situation it works out great. As I pointed out some games (like games 007 eye, during the menus) polls too fast. Event though the Bridge keeps up, it freaks out a bit.

A note about humans, well most of us. It is lack of consistency that kills us. We learn to play games based on patterns and timing is everything. If we learn the game with 8 frames lag, we learn it that way. the same game can not be played changing to 1 frame late, it will throw us off. We can relearn it at that rate but it takes time to learn. We are amazing creates we adapt very well. But if you mess with consistency you really mess us up. Trying playing punchout on a emulator using a slow usb controller and a LCD TV. After days you will get really good at it, now to play it on a real console. Glass Joe will kill the hell out of you. In time you will once again get good at it, now go back, and you suck and complain that its laggy.