Anyone playing modern pixel art PC games at 480p on a consumer HD crt?

[deezdrama]

Wait, so the initial topic is "modern pixel art games"

After this long thread, are you basically saying you're now just going to just play those games at a 4.5x bilinear scale, interlaced, with a frame of input lag?

Just a simple way to display to the set for testing while I take my time pursuing better options. Sometimes its good to start at the bottom to experience the negatives and move forward.

I started with emulation and lcd panels years ago which turned into shelves of og consoles and mister and a new hobby of finding pro monitors, recapping, and rgb modding consumer tubes, and recapping/modding consoles.

None of that would of happened without taking the first step in emulation.

Sometimes I just have to get my feet wet to gain interest enough to dig deeper

[Bassa-Bassa]

As suggested, if you're investing in a scaler for an HD CRT TV which should display "modern pixel art games at 480p" at some point, make sure at least it'll output 540p. Doesn't seem like the one you're picking outputs below 600p and is even comfortable with 480p sources.

[Josh128]

Wait, so the initial topic is "modern pixel art games"

After this long thread, are you basically saying you're now just going to just play those games at a 4.5x bilinear scale, interlaced, with a frame of input lag?

Just a simple way to display to the set for testing while I take my time pursuing better options. Sometimes its good to start at the bottom to experience the negatives and move forward.

I started with emulation and lcd panels years ago which turned into shelves of og consoles and mister and a new hobby of finding pro monitors, recapping, and rgb modding consumer tubes, and recapping/modding consoles.

None of that would of happened without taking the first step in emulation.

Sometimes I just have to get my feet wet to gain interest enough to dig deeper

I think the first step should be obtaining the display in question to verify what it actually does / doesnt do as far as accepting certain resolutions and which ones, if any, can bypass the internal digital scaling/processing circuitry and get some baseline input lag figures. The whole 1080i/540p and HDPT=0 thing is specific to Sony HD sets and does not apply to any other HD sets. This Leow set, Panasonic Taus, Toshibas, Philips, and Hitachi HD CRTs are all different, and as I said earlier, information for which resolutions are supported on each that may be lag-free, or any service menu items that may make specific resolutions lag-free, is pretty much non-existent. I can say with 99.9% degree of certainty that all the Hitachi Ultravision units featuring VGA ports will be lag free for the VGA resolutions they accept, which for my old 36" was 640x480,60p, 640x480,72p, and 800x600,60p.

I think it was too early to nab that scaler-- you'd have been better off just getting a cheap and efficient Radeon 560 or GTX1050 or even something like the $15 Radeon HD5450's that can pretty much do any resolution under sun, and that still is probably the way to go, but you really need to do some testing on whatever set you get, before anything else takes place.

You said you have many CRTs lying around. You dont need a Time Sleuth for lag measurement, all you need is a VGA CRT and a way to to feed both the HD set and the VGA CRT simultaneously. Put up counter such as the one on the 240p suite and snap a picture at a shutter speed of 1/60sec or faster and compare the pics. Easy peasy.

[tongshadow]

I think the first step should be obtaining the display in question to verify what it actually does / doesnt do as far as accepting certain resolutions and which ones, if any, can bypass the internal digital scaling/processing circuitry and get some baseline input lag figures. The whole 1080i/540p and HDPT=0 thing is specific to Sony HD sets and does not apply to any other HD sets. This Leow set, Panasonic Taus, Toshibas, Philips, and Hitachi HD CRTs are all different, and as I said earlier, information for which resolutions are supported on each that may be lag-free, or any service menu items that may make specific resolutions lag-free, is pretty much non-existent.

And this is precisely why HDTVs arent a popular or demanded choice: inconsistency. While SDTVs all have a predictable performance, with HDTVs you never know what to expect and whether it's going to fit your needs.
Look at all the hoops one has to jump through just to get reasonable lag free experience with decent PQ, even though we're power users.

[BazookaBen]

Just a simple way to display to the set for testing while I take my time pursuing better options. Sometimes its good to start at the bottom to experience the negatives and move forward.

If you're just trying to test different resolutions/picture modes, then just an old graphics card with analog output + a RGB>YPbPr transcoder is all you need really. Then you can test basically any resolution.

Bonus is that you can use the RGB transcoder to both use with 240p consoles going to SD TVs, as well as a Dreamcast going to your HDTVs at 480p.

[deezdrama]

Just a simple way to display to the set for testing while I take my time pursuing better options. Sometimes its good to start at the bottom to experience the negatives and move forward.

If you're just trying to test different resolutions/picture modes, then just an old graphics card with analog output + a RGB>YPbPr transcoder is all you need really. Then you can test basically any resolution.

Bonus is that you can use the RGB transcoder to both use with 240p consoles going to SD TVs, as well as a Dreamcast going to your HDTVs at 480p.

I have a pc with a gtx 1060 6gb and an old gtx 780 in storage. I think an old 650 ti as well, pretty sure the 780 and 650 had analog. I just got through a daunting move and the only area really setup is my gameroom for now. Im working in the garage as we speak setting up shelving and putting my solder/test bench up will hopefully get done this winter. When thats done I can bring the old pc from storage and be able to properly test this hd crt. For now with little free time I just needed a quick way to test

[NoAffinity]

This has been a fun read. I've always been intrigued by the hd crt's. No room in my setup for any additions and I'm happy with my 27" sd trinitron flat screen, so I'll be living vicariously through others on the hd crt front. Would love to see some screenshots @deezdrama if/when you get things set up and dialed in.

[deezdrama]

This has been a fun read. I've always been intrigued by the hd crt's. No room in my setup for any additions and I'm happy with my 27" sd trinitron flat screen, so I'll be living vicariously through others on the hd crt front. Would love to see some screenshots @deezdrama if/when you get things set up and dialed in.

Will do, for now heres the tube in question while I wait for the scaler.

[Josh128]

Nice, a Toshiba. Very interesting. I thought it was a Loewe you were getting all this time. Looking forward to you review and info about it. I know you want to wait for the scaler, but remember, this thing has a scaler in it already and accepts HDMI straight in. What you really should have gotten was a simple, lag free, VGA to HDMI transcoder. Cheaper and surely your current video card can output 480p or 720p, which this set will likely already display with various stretch options. No need to wait.

[BazookaBen]

so I'll be living vicariously through others on the hd crt front.

Same here. I used to have one, but I later decided CRT PC monitors have much more capability and the only real downside is the size (which is actually a positive if you don't have a lot of space). But I just sit closer so the size difference isn't important

I'll eventually reconsider when I get a bigger place, but for the meantime, I just enjoy reading what people are doing with them, and sharing what I learned from back when I had one.

And really, the topic of this thread is the biggest reason I'd like to have one again one day: 16:9 240p and 270p pixel art games displayed line-doubled to 480p and 540p with a scanline overlay. They look really good in this config, the only things that look better are the somewhat rare widescreen PAL sets that do 50hz and 60hz over RGB.

[deezdrama]

Nice, a Toshiba. Very interesting. I thought it was a Loewe you were getting all this time. Looking forward to you review and info about it. I know you want to wait for the scaler, but remember, this thing has a scaler in it already and accepts HDMI straight in. What you really should have gotten was a simple, lag free, VGA to HDMI transcoder. Cheaper and surely your current video card can output 480p or 720p, which this set will likely already display with various stretch options. No need to wait.

There is a loewe planus within 4hrs for cheap. I want it but dont want to make the drive. That made me realize i had a widesreen hd tube already being this toshiba i brought home from my rental property basement (free crt storage )
I just needed to get my toes wet with it to decide if im crazy enough to make the journey for the loewe.
Storage room is opening up as I just bought some nice industrial shelving racks for the garage. Could easily store 12 20" pvms per unit so I cant use space as an excuse now lol.

I need to get my solder/rework bench set up and a pc in there then I will be able to test things right. If I do get the loewe i plan to get a time slueth and test multiple signal source methods including mister with a 540p modeline, this move just has me slowed down right now.

[deezdrama]

Just ordered the "mister laggy", its esentially a time slueth device used with a mister core. Sadly mister doesnt output interlaced signals that Im aware of but the time slueth does, but then the time slueth doesnt have 540p as an option but I think it might be possible to test 540p with mister laggy.
We will see... will be cool to test 540p modeline,480p, and 1080p converted to 1080i through the scaler I bought on the hd wide toshiba crt using mister fpga and the display lag tester for gits and shiggles.

[deezdrama]

And looky at this sexy german made tube

I could pick one of these up for $100 ...without the stand sadly but still a rare awesome crt. These were super high end luxury sets and imported costing probably crazy money in the early 2000s.



I read they handle 480p with no processing via the vga port

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... edium=mweb


A 4 hour drive one way though

[orange808]

...the time slueth doesnt have 540p as an option...

That's not entirely true. You can get 540p if you really want it.

Time Sleuth - Custom Firmware Generator
link: https://time-sleuth.i74.de/

Flashing information here:
https://github.com/chriz2600/time-sleuth

FYI, the custom firmware site is maintained by the creator. It's official.

[deezdrama]

...the time slueth doesnt have 540p as an option...

That's not entirely true. You can get 540p if you really want it.

Time Sleuth - Custom Firmware Generator
link: https://time-sleuth.i74.de/

Flashing information here:
https://github.com/chriz2600/time-sleuth

FYI, the custom firmware site is maintained by the creator. It's official.

I stand corrected, good to know! Thanks

I may get a slueth yet if this mister lag device doesnt accept custom resolutions

[deezdrama]

Nice, a Toshiba. Very interesting. I thought it was a Loewe you were getting all this time. Looking forward to you review and info about it. I know you want to wait for the scaler, but remember, this thing has a scaler in it already and accepts HDMI straight in. What you really should have gotten was a simple, lag free, VGA to HDMI transcoder. Cheaper and surely your current video card can output 480p or 720p, which this set will likely already display with various stretch options. No need to wait.

Josh... just happened to find your yt channel while looking for 540p hd crt videos, subbed

[deezdrama]

Pretty amazing watching clips of movies on this even though it seems to be in need of servicing and calibration.
Colors and contrasts just pop like an oled. Really makes you see how crap the first 10-15 yrs of lcds were.
The flat panel crt they were developing at the same time as lcd's.... The display had an electron gun for each phosphor dot.... Imagine how cool them would of been if the cheap and lighter lcds didnt take over.

Anyway, ill eventually recap deflection and power circuits and reseat the yoke. Will do some lag testing in 540p/1080i from the pc, the scaler, and will try a 540p modeline in mister.

Need to spend some time in serv menu too, but heres some shots...













Definitely going to have to watch some movies on this thing

[Josh128]

Pretty amazing watching clips of movies on this even though it seems to be in need of servicing and calibration.
Colors and contrasts just pop like an oled. Really makes you see how crap the first 10-15 yrs of lcds were.
The flat panel crt they were developing at the same time as lcd's.... The display had an electron gun for each phosphor dot.... Imagine how cool them would of been if the cheap and lighter lcds didnt take over.

Anyway, ill eventually recap deflection and power circuits and reseat the yoke. Will do some lag testing in 540p/1080i from the pc, the scaler, and will try a 540p modeline in mister.

Definitely going to have to watch some movies on this thing.

I think you are talking about the SED tech for the flat CRT panels, correct? Seems they could still be a viable option had the tech just not been abandoned because of cheap LCD tech. Looks like it could have been an incredible display tech.

As far as your set, looks fantastic to me! What size /model is this again? A Toshiba 26hf84a? lol it looks MUCH larger than a 26" in your photos. From the pics it looks like a Trinitron style aperture grille and not a slot mask, is that correct? I wasnt really keen on getting a 16:9 CRT but dang it man now youve gone and messed that up for me.


What in particular are you seeing that makes you think it needs servicing? Its hard to see in the still photos, but the geometry, convergence, and even color appears excellent in the Sonic photo. You mentioned reseating the yoke--does it appear that it has moved / been jarred out of place? What specifically are you aiming to improve by doing that? 



If you have a link to the service manual, please post here, I'd like to check it out. *EDIT, link below:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/13151 ... =27#manual << Wow, what incredibly easy to understand and concise adjustment procedures this manual has-- unlike the cryptic Sony manuals, which often tell you to connect different "jigs" here and there when taking measurements and offer near zero advice on setting white balance/grayscale, etc.

Looking forward to see what resolutions it can handle and how it handles them (natively or scaled), as well as some sweet macro-shots of more content. This is a spec sheet Ive found from the owners manual. 79 lbs?! Its literally 3x lighter than the Sony 4:3 HD monsters!!

[deezdrama]

Pretty amazing watching clips of movies on this even though it seems to be in need of servicing and calibration.
Colors and contrasts just pop like an oled. Really makes you see how crap the first 10-15 yrs of lcds were.
The flat panel crt they were developing at the same time as lcd's.... The display had an electron gun for each phosphor dot.... Imagine how cool them would of been if the cheap and lighter lcds didnt take over.

Anyway, ill eventually recap deflection and power circuits and reseat the yoke. Will do some lag testing in 540p/1080i from the pc, the scaler, and will try a 540p modeline in mister.

Definitely going to have to watch some movies on this thing.

I think you are talking about the SED tech for the flat CRT panels, correct? Seems they could still be a viable option had the tech just not been abandoned because of cheap LCD tech. Looks like it could have been an incredible display tech.

As far as your set, looks fantastic to me! What size /model is this again? A Toshiba 26hf84a? lol it looks MUCH larger than a 26" in your photos. From the pics it looks like a Trinitron style aperture grille and not a slot mask, is that correct? I wasnt really keen on getting a 16:9 CRT but dang it man now youve gone and messed that up for me.


What in particular are you seeing that makes you think it needs servicing? Its hard to see in the still photos, but the geometry, convergence, and even color appears excellent in the Sonic photo. You mentioned reseating the yoke--does it appear that it has moved / been jarred out of place? What specifically are you aiming to improve by doing that? 



If you have a link to the service manual, please post here, I'd like to check it out. *EDIT, link below:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/13151 ... =27#manual << Wow, what incredibly easy to understand and concise adjustment procedures this manual has-- unlike the cryptic Sony manuals, which often tell you to connect different "jigs" here and there when taking measurements and offer near zero advice on setting white balance/grayscale, etc.

Looking forward to see what resolutions it can handle and how it handles them (natively or scaled), as well as some sweet macro-shots of more content. This is a spec sheet Ive found from the owners manual. 79 lbs?! Its literally 3x lighter than the Sony 4:3 HD monsters!!

SED.... Yep! I couldnt think of the acronym. Man, if lcd's would of just taken a few more years to be mass produced we would of probably gotten that awesome tech, would of been so cool.

Yeah its the 26" and easy to throw around and move, such a nice size. Im just nuts and like to replace the hard driven circuits electrolytic capacitors on sets I plan to keep and try to do it when im in them to dust out. This one has some funky top geometry that looks like yoke sag but could just need tweaked in the serv menu. I will at least check esr of caps in deflection circuits because it sucks to spend a bunch of time tweaking in geometry just to have it drift in a couple weeks because of out of spec caps. I usually just dust,reseat yoke, and check or replace power and deflection caps as preventative maintenance at this point especially on consumer sets that only usually require a handful of caps. Im sure this hd widescreen might have more complex circuits but not sure, havnt been in this one yet, still getting my solder bench area setup.