Sony kv36hs420 unable to get 540p input from Retrotink 5x

[Josh128]

If the internal rendering doesnt change, it still wont matter. You could force them to 1080i60 if you want, it wont hit performance. You'll likely just get a jittery 50fps rendering out over a 60Hz display-- you'll get a visible frame hitch every second or so, just like when you watch a PAL/Euro 50Hz sporting event on an ATSC/NTSC 60Hz display.

Are you saying that if you force 540p60 video output via Swiss you can take a PAL 640x528p game that normally runs at 50Hz and it the GC will internally render it at 60Hz at the same PAL resolution? And if it does, are you saying that there isnt a performance hit?

What are you guys trying to argue here?

[Extrems]

It will become 60Hz at the same resolution.

[Josh128]

Turns out that most, if not all, GC and Wii games render internally at 640x528 anyway, and at 60Hz, whether NTSC or PAL. They actually dont get any resolution boosts in PAL modes either, rather, any PAL games that require 50Hz are just slowed from the baseline 60Hz to meet the 50Hz requirements. So forcing any 50Hz game back to 60Hz nets you nothing but a timing change. No drop in resolution, no increase in fill rate.

Regardless, the whole point is that changing the output on Swiss does not increase or decrease the rendering resolution, just as I originally said. And hypothetically, if it would, it would certainly affect performance.

In any case, I just got a new SD card loader this morning which will make it a lot easier to test these things as the one I was using was frankensteined and I had to squeeze it and cross my fingers during a boot to get Swiss to come up. I also got a different HDMI to component DAC to test to gather data about options other than the Portta. Hope to play a bit with them later today.

[Extrems]

This is becoming tiring.
What's your source for any of your claims? 640x528 is quite rare.

https://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Swiss/Forced_Progressive_Compatibility_List#NTSC-U_game_list
https://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Swiss/Forced_Progressive_Compatibility_List#PAL_game_list

[Josh128]

It comes from the Dolphin devs, and the Dolphin emulator itself. If its becoming tiring, then you are free to carry your ass off of this thread, eh? I dont give a fuck who you are, or who you are supposed to be-- if you want to come in here and be ugly and disrespect me, Im going to call you on it. Your buddy was incorrect about his claim that only 60 fps games work in 540p mode, then muses that Im incorrect in saying Swiss forced 540p is not simply standard GC resolution in a 540p window, then calls you in for whatever the fuck reason to try and debate me about it or something, you start talking about 1080i, which I said nothing about, then you switch gears and try to claim some other bullshit about forcing PAL games to 60Hz , which has nothing to do with the fact that forcing a res still in fact does not cause the GC to render out any higher res than it normally does.

Whats the source of my claims, you mean the claims I made before you rode up here on your high horse? Lets look at "my claims" :

Claim 1:

You must have missed my previous post on the matter, but that is simply not true as Ive already proven they dont need to be 60fps games [to work in the Swiss 540p mode].

Source 1: I tested it myself and it works. Source 2: You said it yourself, lol.

540p can be used on any game

Claim 2:

This is almost certainly 480p image centered in a 540p raster .

Source : When you output it to a 540p set it displays a small image surrounded on all sides by large black bars until you stretch the raster, just like it does on the 5X with source signal of 480i or 480p and output res of 540p.

Claim 3:

the GC obviously cant render out at 540p without hitting framerates and video RAM limitations.

Source: Computer science and literally every real-time 3D rendering computing system ever produced. Given a scene rendered in real time at a framerate of X at Y resolution, on a fixed speed CPU and GPU, any increase in Y will cause a corresponding decrease in X and will utilize more video RAM. You already know this, but are just being an ass.


Now its your turn.

1.) Show proof that 540p mode only works with 60fps, which is what you were called here to disprove.

and

2.) Show that forcing GC to 540p is not simply causing it to display its normal output centered in a 540p frame

[kitty666cats]

…you do know who Extrems is and their extensive amount of work they’ve done with GameCube software/modding and, most likely, close familiarity with the hardware & its compatible resolutions, right? I, myself, would just take their word on this stuff. If I had a GameCube.

You’re also being ridiculously defensive and abrasive about a freaking video game resolution. All they said was that they’re tired of debating supported resolutions on, again, just some video game system. It’s not that big of a deal lol

[Josh128]

Because he's a/the Swiss developer, you think Im supposed to let him talk to me in a disrespectful fashion? Sorry brother, I dont give a shit who he is if hes going to come at me like that, for shit I didnt even fucking claim to begin with. Its not about the "resolution", its the principle of being disrespected for no apparent reason.

Who's in the wrong here? What have I done wrong to deserve the "big man", coming here to disrespect me? Am I supposed to say "Yes sir, OK sir? When Ive said nothing wrong and he decides to try to give me shit?

[kitty666cats]

He’s not ‘coming at you’, he’s just tired of debating a video resolution. I definitely didn’t see any insults towards you. You’re getting overly upset

[Josh128]

Yes, I am upset, because I did nothing to warrant him coming here in the first place--not a thing-- and I dont put up with being talked down to-- from anyone. And you shouldnt be defending that type behaviour. I didnt call him here, he came on his own. Let him prove me wrong if he insists, and I'll admit that Im wrong. Let me guess, its going to come down to, "its not 480p in a 540p raster, its "some few pixels off from 480p in a 540p raster " blah blah.

[kitty666cats]

I just didn’t interpret you being talked down to at any point, I’m not defending anyone here.

[Extrems]

I was brought in by strayan in a private message with this:

1080i and SWISS

Sorry to be a bother but would you be able to clear up how the 1080i mode works? viewtopic.php?p=1536200#p1536200

Cheers
strayan

[strayan]

I would like to extend my apologies to Extrems.

I thought this thread might be interested in how the alternate 1080i/540p modes worked and figured he’d be able to clear a few things up so everyone, including myself, would have a better idea.

I was wrong.

[maxtherabbit]

didn't read, I'm just here to T pose on this sinking ship

[incrediblehark]

Josh, watched your video on the 540p adjustments last night, very nice! I just picked up a 32HS420 over the weekend and starting to get the 540p mode working. Have some flicker with scanlines that I may be able to adjust with MDVS or whatever the setting was I mentioned before. So far it looks good though! Wish this mode was in the newer 5x firmware.

[Josh128]

Josh, watched your video on the 540p adjustments last night, very nice! I just picked up a 32HS420 over the weekend and starting to get the 540p mode working. Have some flicker with scanlines that I may be able to adjust with MDVS or whatever the setting was I mentioned before. So far it looks good though! Wish this mode was in the newer 5x firmware.

Thanks, Im glad you found it helpful! Can you tell if the flicker you are seeing is due to TV being in interlaced mode 960i/1080i or something else? If you put up an image with the Tink outputting in 540p mode and go into the service mode and change HDPT from 0 to 1 or vice versa, you should be able to tell if the TV is switching from progressive (should be HDPT=0) or interlaced (should be HDPT=1).

Also, what year model is your set?

[incrediblehark]

Thanks for the help! It was made oct 2005. I assume it has the necessary circuitry for the 540p mode. HDPT I think makes a difference but I know there was another setting that also showed a noticeable change, will follow up. I replied to your Reddit post but I’ll stick with here to keep things consistent. Going to try dialing it in tonight as I just brought it into my house yesterday.

EDIT: Double checked and no difference when switching HDPT to 0 or 1

[BazookaBen]

So is the best way to adjust convergence the 240p test suite?

Since it's a 540p display, I'd hook up a PC and use NECtest.exe. It creates test patterns on the fly to match your resolution.

[incrediblehark]

Well, I think I ended up with another set that can’t do 540p, like the 40XBR800. There is no noticeable change in picture when switching HDPT to 0. I could reduce flicker with some other settings, and after going through my service menu compared to Josh’s in the video, his menu items and mine are different once you get to MID1 item 12. There are some settings I can set to reduce the flickering but i couldn’t remove it completely.

[Josh128]

You are using component in and not HDMI, correct? What kind of luck would you have to have to get not just one but two HD/HS sets that wont do 540p? There is no setting that I know of that will "ease" the flickering of the interlaced mode, its either going to be on or off.

I would think the circuitry in your set should be near identical to my HS420, which I also think is a 2004 model (need to verify). Try putting the Tink in 480p output and feed that to the set and see what it looks like and if the scanlines are integer scaled.

**EDIT

Im currently working on a crazy scheme to get my hands on what I consider on paper to be the ultimate CRT, a Sony KD-36XS955, the only 36" 4:3 model ever made with the Super Fine Pitch CRT and the HD Detailer - a wideband video amplifier with a high bandwidth frequency rating (according to the Sony documentation). This thing on paper should essentially be a gargantuan sized BVM-- however, if its true that theres a slew of Sony HD CRTs floating around out there that wont do 540p, it will be a sad day indeed if I go through all this money and trouble only to find out its 1080i only. I guess we'll see.

Are you sure your HDMI to component transcoder is not converting the signal to 1080i somehow? Are you using a Portta?

[incrediblehark]

Yes, I’m using my portta. I can display 480p fine, scanlines look even (not sure of integer scaling but I don’t notice anything that looks odd)

It is pretty strange I would experience this. I can try to take a video and show you the service menu differences on my set compared to yours, and maybe pick up the flickering I am talking about. I can’t remember the exact menu item that reduced the flicker, should have taken a pic but I can try to find it again. Was planning on reflashing to newest fw and just run 480p. Maybe one of the new scalers coming will output 1080i and support 15/24/31khz inputs and weird timings like the X68000 and I can have one scaler to do it all.

[Josh128]

Do that if you dont mind (take the video), and I'll take a close up video clip of mine so you can see exactly what Im talking about too. Will try to maybe get it posted tomorrow.

[incrediblehark]

Will do! Been looking for one of those XS955's myself but they aren't too common around here. Missed a widescreen one in the summer but I want the 4:3 model.

The only thing I can think is that as a cost saving measure components were removed and the HDPT circuit was once again scrapped. No vertical bar on this set that plagued the XBR800s though. I do know that it looks exactly like my 40XBR800 did before I swapped boards.

EDIT: here’s the link:

https://youtu.be/i6tNP-CJfOU?si=hTH9_-SZ4a0P7q4m

I don’t know how easy it is to tell the flickering of the scanlines, it’s most noticeable for me for scanlines intensity above 4 or 5. I cycled through all of my service menu items, you’ll see where it differs at MID1. There’s one I have in the video that I adjust from 4 to 7 and back to 0 and then 4, that is the one that affects my flicker I was referring to in my lrarlier comments.

EDIT2: MDVP made a slight difference in picture, but still flickering. DHVL would affect the flickering but I couldn’t eliminate it. You can kind of see the effect in the video.

[Josh128]

Had a chance to check mine and I tried to video what happens with the HDPT 0 to 1 switch, its very hard to capture 1080i interlacing difference from 540p with a camera, but you can see the screen jump, slightly change brightness and size when the switch occurs. It will only do this when fed 540p from the 5X, as 33.75KHz is the only signal that will allow HDPT to work. If NOTHING happens when you switch HDPT, one of two things must be true:

1.) The signal reaching the set is not actually 540p.

or

2.) Your set does not have the HDPT circuitry.

I have a brief video I will be uploading later tonight in this post.

[Josh128]

Note that the MDVS option that you were using to ease the flicker is the same option I used to get integer scaling when I displayed 240p with scanlines over 480p to the set. The option means M (Digital Vertical Scaling), and thats exactly what it does. On my set, a setting of 135 gives perfect integer scaling for 240p when using 540p from the Tink and HDPT is not working. Perfect scaling makes it flash like hell if the set is displaying that 540p in interlaced mode (ie, HDPT=1 or your HDPT=0 option does not work). If you adjust up or down from there, the scaling changes, and the flashing goes away, but instead you will get some fast rolling brightness changes that change every time you change the scaling. There is no way to make them all disappear or go away if your set is displaying in interlaced mode. If your sets HDPT option actually works, the MDVS option does nothing at all, as the scaler is bypassed. But thats fine as its already perfect because the Tink is scaling it for you.


The video below shows what you should see if your HDPT is really working. The whole screen flashes and jumps when changing from interlaced to progressive pass through. You can also verify with a Time Sleuth, because when outputting 1080i to the set in HDPT =0 (ON) mode, you will get 0.78 ms input lag. If its not working, you'll get either 14 or 32ms (dont recall).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQtxv7Z ... e=youtu.be

[incrediblehark]

Thanks again for the support, I’d say that confirms it then, this revision of the HS420 doesn’t have the proper bypass circuit for HDPT. Man what bad luck! I’ll have to stick with 480p and the extra lag. If you end up with the 36XS955 I’d be curious to see the results.

On the new 5x firmware, is the lag reading accurate in the menu?

[Josh128]

I think the lag that the 5X shows is just the lag that the 5X is adding to the display-- it has no way of knowing what additional lag the display itself is adding.


All this aside, you should be fine just using 480p output of the 5X-- the HS will have a frame or so of added lag when you feed 480p to it, not a deal breaker by any means. The lag added by the 5X in framelock is minimal, ~3.25 ms tops. Plus, you'll still be able to use the digital scaling options if you need them.

[Josh128]

Very cool / nostalgic early 2000's Sony "Home Theater" guide. Very cool references about the early days of LCD, the beginning of the end days of CRT, when plasma was considered king.


https://www.sony.com/electronics/suppor ... 00971M.pdf

[incrediblehark]

For anyone with the same issue as me - the bypass circuit should be on the BY board of the DA-4 chassis. Part number is A-302-940-A. Should be the same as the HS510 models.

[Josh128]

What'd you end up doing?

[ChronoLe]

I will say this though. I was able to tune this set with the SM, a few magnets, and a few permalloy strips, and it has the best convergence and geometry I have ever seen on a CRT this size-- its extremely impressive. Because of this,

I have a very noob question, as it pertains to someone that has never opened the back of a cart yet. I got the 40" Sony XBR800 4:3 set within the past year and it has some green corners. With some guidance from y'all, do you suppose it would be possibly for me to clear up those green spots with said magnets?

Also, shout out to Incrediblehark for sending me an oem remote