Sony kv36hs420 unable to get 540p input from Retrotink 5x

[BazookaBen]

NECtest.exe is probably better for adjusting convergence at 540p and 1080i. Has finer patterns.

ChuChu I can't really see the flicker you're talking about. Hard to tell what's an artifact from the phone recording and what's something you might actually be seeing in person.

[Josh128]

I have some more good stuff to report but it'll have to wait until tomorrow, Im about to call it a night.

Chu Chu, I dont see what you are talking about in the video, but I can affirm that in many resolution modes on my set the ZOOM function does cause a pulsing/wavy interference in the picture as you describe-- Im not sure if its due to a setting I changed along the way or not, it may be related to a setting change in the SM-- in any case, you dont want or need to use that mode. I attained perfect screen filling 480p in 540p window without it and with zero waviness, pulsation, or jitter. I was able to test both the 540p straight out of the GC into the set via Swiss and compare it to the 540p from the GC/RT5X/YPrPb transcoder. Visual quality is identical, but the straight feed from the GC requires
a bit more increase in horizontal raster size to reach the sides than with the 5X, though its still easily achievable. Also tested forcing the vertical filter of the GC to 0 via Swiss, direct to the set and through the 5X and can confirm it enhances the picture noticeably and identically either way.

I'll post more details tomorrow, but check these incredible photos of the Swiss direct 540p to the set. This is before removing the vertical filter!

For full resolution (5184x3456) right click and hit "Open link in new tab or new window", then left click on the image to zoom to full size!

https://i.imgur.com/Rjfyhre.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rf57Fxf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ESEy9km.jpg

[ChuChu Flamingo]

Yeah it is hard to see in the video but very noticeable in person. That is good that the zoom function behaves the same on your set as well.

So basically all I have to do is make sure to adjust vertical size/hsize in service menu and just skip the zoom function. Edit: I adjusted the vertical size to maximum but it still doesn't take up the whole picture.

[Josh128]

Yeah it is hard to see in the video but very noticeable in person. That is good that the zoom function behaves the same on your set as well.

So basically all I have to do is make sure to adjust vertical size/hsize in service menu and just skip the zoom function. Edit: I adjusted the vertical size to maximum but it still doesn't take up the whole picture.

Mine does with room to spare. Ill make a video of my entire SM settings and 5X settings and post it here.

[Josh128]

I have the videos, just need to edit and upload them to Youtube.

[Josh128]

Made a video to show settings, was kinda fun. See link below.

https://youtu.be/CHoVm_aYd0w

[ChuChu Flamingo]

When I run melee at 540p VSIZE max only goes to 63 so it doesn't take up the whole picture. Only way is to enable IDSW which doesnt save. Then it will take up the whole space vertically. Is there any other setting im missing?

[Josh128]

When I run melee at 540p VSIZE max only goes to 63 so it doesn't take up the whole picture. Only way is to enable IDSW which doesnt save. Then it will take up the whole space vertically. Is there any other setting im missing?

Did you watch the vid? Im only using a value of 54 for VSIZ, so I have vertical room to spare. Did you set the JUMP and APSW values to match what Im using? Also, ASPT is important, I have it maxed out at 63.

[Josh128]

^^
Also, I have AGCS set to 1-- maybe you missed that one-- it gives you about 10% increase in vert size as well.

Sadly, I have concluded my PS2 GunCon2 testing-- despite these new settings, I was not able to make it work with the 5X. So, I tried to force 1080i on the PS2 with the HDTV Xploder disc to see if it was the 5X causing the issue, sadly it would not work even with direct 1080i mode either. So scan tracking lightguns are still out, unfortunately.

[BazookaBen]

BTW, the Portta HDMI to component converter is still available at Amazon, not sure why OP couldnt find one.
https://www.amazon.com/Portta-N3CVRHP-C ... search_btf

This is a link to a Component>HDMI adapter.

[Josh128]

BTW, the Portta HDMI to component converter is still available at Amazon, not sure why OP couldnt find one.
https://www.amazon.com/Portta-N3CVRHP-C ... search_btf

This is a link to a Component>HDMI adapter.

Ah, I screwed that up. Will delete the link.

[flashlight]

It appears that the 4 different converters I tried were the issue. They did not quite support the 540p/1080i mode I guess.

This adapter works beautifully at 480p 540p and 720p on my crt!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074V57Y73?ps ... ct_details

[flashlight]

^^
Also, I have AGCS set to 1-- maybe you missed that one-- it gives you about 10% increase in vert size as well.

Sadly, I have concluded my PS2 GunCon2 testing-- despite these new settings, I was not able to make it work with the 5X. So, I tried to force 1080i on the PS2 with the HDTV Xploder disc to see if it was the 5X causing the issue, sadly it would not work even with direct 1080i mode either. So scan tracking lightguns are still out, unfortunately.

Im going to tackle ps2 guncons next. I believe from my research you have to use 480i/p framelock mode, that was the ONLY resolution/setting that worked from another person's testing. I hope to duplicate their config once I get some guncon 2s in hand.

[Josh128]

I’ve already tested GC2 operation with 5X plus HDMI to VGA converter feeding a CRT VGA monitor— it works great if 5X is in frame lock mode. I have a video on YT demonstrating it. The PS2 works fine in normal 480i mode to feed the 5X, the 5X output can be 480p with CRT simulate mode, I think it also works in all other deinterlacing modes that don’t add additional input lag. I tried again on the HS420 yesterday, I still can not make it work. It won’t work even with PS2 direct feeding set in 1080i, which is lag free. It has something to do with 480p in 540p frame. I need to try 540p out to VGA monitor to prove this theory for certain.

Below is the video I made demonstrating it.

https://youtu.be/J6uDpaxd5Kg?si=kUV1CWOSZIxWSzaA

[Josh128]

I went back and tested on VGA CRT again, oddly enough it no longer works. I did notice that I was using an older FW ( the first 540p FW) in the video I made above than I am now. I am also using a different HDMI to VGA converter. Wonder if something changed that would make it no longer work???

** EDIT-- I got it working now, not sure what the issue was, it works on Startech, Rankie, and Tripp Lite DACs Im using, but there is still an issue with it that I didnt have before-- I cant point lower than the top of the bottom quarter of the screen or it says "Off screen", but I can point above the screen a good bit before I get the same message for being too high-- like the scan rate is off enough to cause some vertical shift. Try as I might I cant get it working as good as I did in the video above. Might try to flash to older FW.

**EDIT-- There is something about the original 540p FW, I was able to get the best results top to bottom on the VGA monitor with it, just as I did when I made the original video. It ONLY works with frame locked 480p output mode though, as I noted in the video. I even tried the newest FW because it claims to have faster frame locked mode than the old FW, and it worked as well, but no better than the holiday 540p FW. Best results were still with original 540p FW. Something about mismatched input vs output resolutions and nothing specific about the Sony HD CRTs is why the GunCon 2 will never work on them.

[Josh128]

Just got confirmation from a user on r/crtgaming that the DAC in the link below works properly in 540p mode. I have this one on order and will update with results when I get to test it.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074V57Y73?ps ... ct_details

[ChuChu Flamingo]

Did you adjust the focus on your set? I've adjusted focus on other sets before but this one has two focus adjustments?

What about SSHP setting? Should I set it to max in the service menu and sharpness at min in the main menu?

[Josh128]

Did you get your vertical size issue straightened out?

There is only one focus knob on the flyback, then there is the DF (dynamic focus) in the SM. Adjust the flyback first in the normal method, then put up a grid and adjust the DF to tweak areas in the corner areas, then use the options in the D-CONV menu to tweak horizontal convergence in the corners.

I have not touched the SSHP setting to my knowledge. I do have sharpness turned all the way down in the normal menu, and velocity modulation set to 1. The velocity modulation is a very cool feature as it can increase horizontal detail that is different from artificial sharpening, which causes ringing. VM basically shrinks the time-to-change in transitions from darks to brights and vice versa without the ringing effect which is awesome, but too much can thin out text and not look so good in certain scenarios. I have found that VM=low is a great balance between off and high and I prefer it for most games vs off.

[ChuChu Flamingo]

Yeah I fixed the vertical. Thanks.

I never liked VSM.

But onto the sharpness. Here is where I read it. My sharpness looks best at around 80%. Currently opening it up t o fine tune the focus

viewtopic.php?t=55119

[Josh128]

I might try playing with that SSHP setting, but Im pretty skeptical it works any differently than the normal menu sharpness setting, and heres why-- theres really only 3 ways to sharpen a CRT picture-- classic sharpness, which adds a black outline between color transitions, velocity modulation, which varies the speed of the horizontal scan based on color changes, and focus, which is the most important.

I really think Ive got my set as tuned as its going to get, its sharp as a tack, but I'll try it anyway because Im a nerd. Im about to close my set up and put 'er on the shelf Im building in my tinker shop.

[strayan]

I think Strayan is getting his info that it only works on 60fps games from the link below, and he may have misread it, because it lists 540p60 as an output mode, it doesnt call out 60fps games only. This is almost certainly 480p image centered in a 540p raster as the GC obviously cant render out at 540p without hitting framerates and video RAM limitations.

That’s not where I got the info.

I believe they have to be 60fps because it’s being field rendered.

I’m sure @Extrems can explain how it works in more detail if you PM him: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=16143

[Josh128]

I think Strayan is getting his info that it only works on 60fps games from the link below, and he may have misread it, because it lists 540p60 as an output mode, it doesnt call out 60fps games only. This is almost certainly 480p image centered in a 540p raster as the GC obviously cant render out at 540p without hitting framerates and video RAM limitations.

That’s not where I got the info.

I believe they have to be 60fps because it’s being field rendered.

I’m sure @Extrems can explain how it works in more detail if you PM him: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=16143

You must have missed my previous post on the matter, but that is simply not true as Ive already proven they dont need to be 60fps games. I've tested it on my own setup-- Zelda: TP is a locked 30 fps game, and it works perfectly with no visible difference (other than a slight difference in horizontal scaling, which is easily adjusted for) in stills or in motion between Swiss-enabled 540p direct to TV vs standard 480p to RT5X 540p mode to TV, whether you enable progressive scan in-game or not. The difference in horizontal scaling is universal, independent on what frame rate the game renders out. I even show it on the settings video I posted above.

@chuchu -- back to the sharpness setting, I just checked and the "SSHP" setting referenced above is not an option in the 36-HS420 nor is it in the 34XBR910 according to a rewatch of my own video option list and the Excel sheet from AVSForums linked in a previous reply in this thread. The SM options that affect sharpness, according to the sheet, are:

SHAP - sub picture sharpness
SYSM - special sharpness
SHOF - sharpness
USHP - sharpness (exclusive to current picture mode)
BINI - DRC Palette Reality - Sharpness (vertical in graph)

[Extrems]

1080i only work as intended with 60 FPS games. Period. 540p can be used on any game.

[Josh128]

That may well be, but that was never the claim on this thread. The claim was that 540p mode only worked with 60fps games.

[strayan]

Thanks for clearing that up Extrems.

And what of Josh’s statement that the 540p mode is:

almost certainly [a] 480p image centered in a 540p raster as the GC obviously cant render out at 540p

?

Is that accurate?

[Extrems]

It depends. 640x528 PAL games can display without issues.

[Josh128]

^^
Yes, but thats at 50Hz. Thats still much less than the pixel fill rate requirement of a hypothetical 4:3 960x540 @60Hz, which is 50% more than 720x480. Im not claiming it would be impossible for someone to program something on the GC that could actually render at that resolution, that would depend on the quality of the textures used and whether there was enough VRAM-- Im claiming if you could take an existing game that renders at 480p and make it render internally at 540p, it would take a visible performance hit, because that requires 50% more pixel fill. That should not surprise anyone, its the same as watching your fps drop in any given 3D PC game when you increase the render resolution.

I know for a fact that the GC is still internally rendering at its normal ~480p resolution when you set the mode in Swiss because:

1.) The output vs 480p >RT5X > 540p is actually a bit smaller, and the RT5X mode is definitely just a centered 480p in a 540p window.

and

2.) There is zero performance change to any game you choose to play in that mode.


Its the same thing as using HD Exploder to force the PS2 to output in 1080i or 720p. Performance doesnt move, but you get a windowed/letterboxed image-- the higher resolution you choose, the smaller it is.

[Josh128]

...

[Josh128]

^^
Yes, but thats at 50Hz. Thats still much less than the pixel fill rate requirement of a hypothetical 4:3 960x540 @60Hz, which is 50% more than 720x480. Im not claiming it would be impossible for someone to program something on the GC that could actually render at that resolution, that would depend on the quality of the textures used and whether there was enough VRAM-- Im claiming if you could take an existing game that renders at 480p and make it render internally at 540p, it would take a visible performance hit, because that requires 50% more pixel fill. That should not surprise anyone, its the same as watching your fps drop in any given 3D PC game when you increase the render resolution.

I know for a fact that the GC is still internally rendering at its normal ~480p resolution when you set the mode in Swiss because:

1.) The output vs 480p >RT5X > 540p is actually a bit smaller, and the RT5X mode is definitely just a centered 480p in a 540p window. If you dont stretch your raster in the TV SM, you get a small image surrounded by black borders.

and

2.) There is zero performance change to any game you choose to play in that mode.


Its the same thing as using HD Exploder to force the PS2 to output in 1080i or 720p. Performance doesnt move, but you get a windowed/letterboxed image-- the higher resolution you choose, the smaller it is.

[Extrems]

Nothing stops you from forcing 540p60 on a 50Hz-only game.