Can’t stand Cave games…

[pieslice]

Tatsujin Ou's art is still practically unsurpassed in terms of how beautiful it is

Tats Ou is the most beautiful shmup ever made but it is so excruciantgly difficult I’m having hard time to find any enjoyment from that game

[pieslice]

I do strongly dislike the ones that are huge; I think they are ugly, they're unnecessary

I think it gives some visual clarity to give slower bullets a larger sprite

[Steven]

People will say that Garegga's bullets are invisible (they are actually WAY worse on an arcade monitor, as they get obscured by the aperture grille), but Tatsujin Ou's are even harder to see than Garegga's are, at least to me.

The funny thing is I've never understood that comment. I die often in Garegga, but never because of not seeing a bullet. They're perfectly clear and distinct to me.

I don't mind brighter bullets. I do strongly dislike the ones that are huge; I think they are ugly and they're unnecessary (given that I see the ones in Garegga just fine), and I do not think bullets should be significantly larger than their hitbox, period. For your ship, fine, but I can't wrap my brain about the size of the bullets not at least approximately matching what actually kills you.

Yeah, I didn't understand why people have difficulty with Garegga's bullets either, but then I played it on an Astro City. The aperture grille on the Astro's monitor ends up covering up the smaller bullets rather well, making them practically invisible. On a modern fixed-pixel display it isn't a problem at all, but on an arcade monitor, I can definitely see why people had difficulty with it.

Speaking of enemy shot hitboxes, one of the few things that I actually outright dislike about bullet hell in general is the tiny player hurtbox, not because they are small, but because I find them to be very ill-defined and hard to read. It's not a problem when the hurtbox is the entire ship, as it's very clearly defined: any part of your ship touches something bad = you die. I like this and prefer this because it's easier to know where you can be hit when the place where you can be hit is literally everywhere on your ship. Meanwhile, in bullet hell, it's like a pixel or so, but I always have difficulty knowing where exactly that is. Even in games that mark it, like Saidaioujou or Crimzon Clover, it still seems ill-defined to me for some reason and because of this I end up dodging around patterns instead of through them like I can in Kyuukyoku Tiger or R-Type or whatever.

If you want some really messed up hitboxes, though, good old arcade Salamander's got you covered~

Tatsujin Ou's art is still practically unsurpassed in terms of how beautiful it is

Tats Ou is the most beautiful shmup ever made but it is so excruciantgly difficult I’m having hard time to find any enjoyment from that game

It's a stupidly beautiful game, but it's also one of the hardest games ever made, mostly for the wrong reasons. The best I have ever done is a no miss to the stage 3 boss, where I game overed. I actually like Tatsujin Ou, but I'm also aware of its many flaws, which are why the game is so damn difficult.

I will never forget the first time I ever saw the game, though. It was running on an Astro City at Mikado, and I knew the game existed, but that was all I knew, so when I saw that massive

達
人
王

explode into existence on the title screen, I sat down, put my money in, pressed start, and immediately HOLY FUCK why does this game look and sound way better than 2D games that are 30 years newer than it? It's a broken piece of junk, but it still looks and sounds unbelievable, even now.

Dogyuun!! might actually be an even better-looking game, but I haven't really been able to play it much, especially after it got removed from Taito Hey. The best artist to ever work at Toaplan, Hayashi Miho, was the lead artist on Dogyuun!!, and the second best artist to ever work at Toaplan, Ogiwara Naoki, who later co-founded CAVE, was the lead artist on Tatsujin Ou. Of course, both of them worked together on Out Zone and Zero Wing previously, which is why both of those look as good as they do as well.

[pieslice]

Speaking of enemy shot hitboxes, one of the few things that I actually outright dislike about bullet hell in general is the tiny player hurtbox, not because they are small, but because I find them to be very ill-defined and hard to read.

In DDP the player hitbox is about 5x7 pixels rectangle but it shrinks to 4x7 when you move horizontally. One curious thing in DDP is that to conserve CPU cycles it only runs collision check for either odd or even indexed bullets during a single frame. In a sense if you are lucky an enemy bullet might just phase through you if it has a contact duration of single frame.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Maybe also Space Invaders, but I, probably somewhat shamefully, have never played that game.

Whaaaaat?! How have you managed to never play Space Invaders?

[Lethe]

One curious thing in DDP is that to conserve CPU cycles it only runs collision check for either odd or even indexed bullets during a single frame. In a sense if you are lucky an enemy bullet might just phase through you if it has a contact duration of single frame.

This is the case for the vast majority of their games and it's a contributor in how "off" the hitboxes seem, along with the oversized/varying sprites that are really all the same. The player's hurtbox on a speed 4 Dangun Feveron ship has almost triple the area of DDP's - for the skinny type A, it's wider than the ship sprite - yet you can still end up flying through bullets regularly. Ketsui's and DOJ's are much smaller than DDP's but I don't feel like it helps at all, it just makes it harder to find out what's consistent.

I don't like making blanket statements like "the bullets should match the sprite" or "the shot/laser scheme sucks" (even though it does) because none of these things are a problem in isolation. It's the very specific combination of elements and attitudes that Cave trend towards which doesn't work so well. Above Steven says he macros around patterns in Crimzon Clover because he's not sure about the hitbox: good, because that game's designed for you to macro around, it's working as intended. It may have a tiny hitbox but it's a different game designed in a different way and its problems aren't Cave problems.

[Lander]

Page 2 and the table is still empty of named-and-shamed concrete CAVE culprits.

SUSPICION+

Speaking of enemy shot hitboxes, one of the few things that I actually outright dislike about bullet hell in general is the tiny player hurtbox, not because they are small, but because I find them to be very ill-defined and hard to read. It's not a problem when the hurtbox is the entire ship, as it's very clearly defined: any part of your ship touches something bad = you die. I like this and prefer this because it's easier to know where you can be hit when the place where you can be hit is literally everywhere on your ship. Meanwhile, in bullet hell, it's like a pixel or so, but I always have difficulty knowing where exactly that is. Even in games that mark it, like Saidaioujou or Crimzon Clover, it still seems ill-defined to me for some reason and because of this I end up dodging around patterns instead of through them like I can in Kyuukyoku Tiger or R-Type or whatever.

In theory sprite = collision for both player and hazards is the only wholly fair approach since it's thoroughly unambiguous, but I still lean toward the lenience of bullet hell.
Though it's quite frustrating to see knowingly-ridiculous collision disparities employed to confuse the player, as is the case with some of Touhou's bigger bullets.

For my own experiments, I've bandied around the idea of having one side be an infinitely-small point rather than a box, and having the opposing side use pixel-perfect visual collision.
It seems a little less bad, but is still at least 50% ambiguous unless the point is marked out with a distinct crosshair or other visual distraction.

It would be interesting to see a bullethell cut the balance and just use a small player ship, without regard to the accompanying loss of visual appeal. In theory it should be doable without introducing visibility issues, since any overlap = death.

[Lethe]

Though it's quite frustrating to see knowingly-ridiculous collision disparities employed to confuse the player, as is the case with some of Touhou's bigger bullets.

Touhou has an entertainingly convoluted history with collision. The early Windows games have square hitboxes, which obviously don't work very well when you're trying to represent a big circle. EoSD is plagued with unintuitive killers. Instead of revising the implementation, the subsequent games would attempt to mitigate the problem via smaller hitboxes, which would then enable the overwhelmingly visually dense stuff that followed (TH08 being the most exaggerated case). What really doesn't help is the player's indicator being drawn under the bullet layer.

By TH13, all common hitboxes had been replaced by radii. That meant the collision didn't have to be undersized any more, and for better or worse the bullets suddenly started representing the sprites more accurately... in most cases. And funnily enough, subsequent entries would feature less use of exotic bullet types and fewer charismatic high-concept pattern designs. I don't think that trend is any less of a coincidence than the earlier games going in the opposite direction.

Neat page with a more detailed explanation and comparative pictures. Some of the differences are really dramatic - up to +50% effective size after the system change.

Having said all that, stupid Touhouboxes > Cavepixels any day. I can tell when I can get through a gap in Touhou even if my character's invisible, I have no idea WTF is happening half the time in post-90s Cave.

[AGermanArtist]

For all their perceived flaws, Cave games deserve their place in the pantheon of first class stg developers. During their run they produced what I believe to be the most polished stgs of any other at the time - delivering a polished arcade experience for operators and enthusiasts. No one likes what they've become, but that's likely down to them being a public company who capitulate to their shareholders. Credit to them, they tried to stay afloat solely as a niche concern, servicing the demands of an increasingly smaller core collector nerd audience who love(d) their polished arcade games and home variants. Whether you appreciate them or not is of little to no concern - you are outnumbered here. I love their games. I'm not particularly good at them and don't care aboout playing for score, and actually enjoy the arrange more than their arcade modes, but I appreciate them for what they are - highly polished arcade games for the modern era. I believe they set the standard of what a modern shooting game should look, play and sound like. I doubt we'll see anything new from them beyond what they're doing now, which is quite saddening, but they had a good run and so did we.

[Sumez]

It's not a problem when the hurtbox is the entire ship, as it's very clearly defined: any part of your ship touches something bad = you die. I like this and prefer this because it's easier to know where you can be hit when the place where you can be hit is literally everywhere on your ship.

This take is a little nuts, but I'm gonna write it off as you simply not having paid attention to the finer details of game design. It's the difference between how you expect a game to play and how it actually feels to play.

While I'll agree insofar as the hitbox size needs to fit the style of game - Cave games usually wouldn't work with any larger hitboxes, and Hishouzame sure as hell wouldn't work if it were any smaller - A hitbox that literally covers the entire ship, be it either pixel perfect collisions or a bounding box, is always gonna feel absolutely terrible, and like the game is being unfair towards you. And if a collision is ever gonna turn out differently than what the player expected, you want it to be in their favor, not the other way around. You want a game to be fun to play, not annoying, and if you want to make it harder, there are better and more intuitive ways to do that.

As a general rule, for any single moving target (especially including the player avatar) you always want a hitbox that is at least a bit smaller than the visible sprite. Don't make a game where it isn't.

[Lemnear]

Whether you appreciate them or not is of little to no concern - you are outnumbered here.

so outnumbered opinions doesn't count?

Credit to them, they tried to stay afloat solely as a niche concern, servicing the demands of an increasingly smaller core collector nerd audience who love(d) their polished arcade games and home variants.

A lot of their games are not so easily available worldwide (on console at least)....and this makes me wonder..."which SHMUPS sells more?" (nowadays, historically etc.)

believe they set the standard of what a modern shooting game should look, play and sound like.

I have the impression that the "Modern Standard" (today) is something more inspired by the Dreamcast era and less around 16-Bit era

[el_rika]

Having said all that, stupid Touhouboxes > Cavepixels any day. I can tell when I can get through a gap in Touhou even if my character's invisible, I have no idea WTF is happening half the time in post-90s Cave.

That's not really the game's fault. I find everything regarding the Cave (Mushi +) ship hitbox/bullet hitbox/collision/etc to be very intuitive and in need of a high level of finesse. I never ever die from some collision confusion, though i do find myself surviving inexplicably more often than not

[AGermanArtist]

Whether you appreciate them or not is of little to no concern - you are outnumbered here.

so outnumbered opinions doesn't count?

In this instance, no. He or she is likely wrong.

Credit to them, they tried to stay afloat solely as a niche concern, servicing the demands of an increasingly smaller core collector nerd audience who love(d) their polished arcade games and home variants.

A lot of their games are not so easily available worldwide (on console at least)....and this makes me wonder..."which SHMUPS sells more?" (nowadays, historically etc.)

What?

believe they set the standard of what a modern shooting game should look, play and sound like.

I have the impression that the "Modern Standard" (today) is something more inspired by the Dreamcast era and less around 16-Bit era

Fuck me. What?

[Nahar]

You're not alone on this opinion. I personally like Cave games, but a lot of my friends, whether fans of shmups or not, strongly dislike the Cave style and prefer more retro-inspired 16-bit era games akin to Soldier Blade, Gradius, etc.

[Lemnear]

Whether you appreciate them or not is of little to no concern - you are outnumbered here.

I have the impression that the "Modern Standard" (today) is something more inspired by the Dreamcast era and less around 16-Bit era

Fuck me. What?

I mean, in newer games i don't feel that CAVE spirit.
Is a Golden Standard of the past (above the actual standard).
But are only my impressions.

[Ghegs]

Never cared for Cave's games myself either. Oh I've tried, I've 1CCed their easy stuff, and I think I owned most if not all of their games on PS1, PS2, and Xbox 360, and I have one or two on Switch, because "Maybe this time it clicks with me", but that click never happens. They just never manage to grab me in the same way that something from Irem, Konami, or even the occasional Capcom shmup does. To be fair, I have the same feelings about all bullet hell games, not just Cave's. I just can't get into them, they lack something in their personality that I need in my shmups.

[-Fish-]

Never cared for Cave's games myself either. Oh I've tried, I've 1CCed their easy stuff, and I think I owned most if not all of their games on PS1, PS2, and Xbox 360, and I have one or two on Switch, because "Maybe this time it clicks with me", but that click never happens. They just never manage to grab me in the same way that something from Irem, Konami, or even the occasional Capcom shmup does. To be fair, I have the same feelings about all bullet hell games, not just Cave's. I just can't get into them, they lack something in their personality that I need in my shmups.

This is the same way I feel. I have almost every Cave STG in my digital library for collectors sake but I can guarantee I haven't played any one of them for longer than an hour. They just don't tick my feel good boxes for some reason. I think it's the absence of weapon powerups, environmental dangers, and interactive set design. Just feels kinda blah dodging a screen of pink endlessly IMO. GIve me anything 8-bit / 16-bit Gradius or Aleste related and I'm all over it though. Probably just another case of "I only enjoy what I grew up with."

[XoPachi]

Cave is among my favorites. I feel incredibly comfortable playing their games and similar titles. I find the blatantly contrasting hazards a blessing as I'm severely colorblind to the point I have to put more focus in certain other STG's than I'd like when playing like Battle Garegga and certain Seibu titles among others. But large, crisp, dual tone pinks and purples amidst backdrops that don't share similar hues make it incredibly easy for me to tell what's what. Always feel like a death is my fault. I find the lack of terrain and other hazards made up for in their rich mechanics for optimizing score. Though I do miss collecting powerups if only for the emotional satisfaction of seeing my ship progress.

As for memorization, that's the majority of action games to some extent. Even a blistering game like DMC is largely memorization once you learn your combo strings and what enemy tells/timings are. There's extreme room for technical optimization of course, but you're always trying to build muscle memory. Some of the best games that aren't nearly as deep are pretty much just remembering what to do and how to do it. Feel like PvP and live service titles are the only times memorization isn't as prominent in a video game. But I'm fine with memorization and linearity if I find the process engaging enough.

[Stevens]

This is like logging on to a Heavy Metal Music forum stating you don‘t like Iron Maiden.

This is an underrated comment. Up the Irons.

Tatsujin Ou's art is still practically unsurpassed in terms of how beautiful it is

Tats Ou is the most beautiful shmup ever made but it is so excruciantgly difficult I’m having hard time to find any enjoyment from that game

If ever a fucking game needed a black label/remix it's Tats Ou. Although I suppose someone here already kind of did that: )

[mycophobia]

If ever a fucking game needed a black label/remix it's Tats Ou. Although I suppose someone here already kind of did that: )

whomstever did that must be pretty cool, and conventionally attractive

[Sloppy_J]

Some great replies and interesting digressions.
A few comments mention memorisation in non-Cave titles and even in action games in general. Of course I agree that pretty much all action games, especially shmups, have a high degree of memorisation - however, there is usually a balance that leaves spaces for improvisation. That is the area where the player can add style. To not just 1CC a game, but to do it with style, that is what high level gaming is.

I’m using a different example here because it’s difficult to reference a single shmup moment, but I’m sure everyone remembers seeing the legendary Daigo moment when he parried Justin Wong’s Chun-li super with next to no energy left in Third Strike - that is playing with style. Great shmups for playing with style are Raiden Fighters Jet and Battle Garegga. The balance is just right for players to add their own personality. In Cave shooters I just feel I’m going along for the ride, there’s no room for me to add anything.

[spmbx]

I've always thought it was strange that cave (and bullethell) is assumed when you mention you like shmups. Most cave games are way too much for me, the cv1k games are absolutely stunning to watch but i get zero enjoyment of playing them. I think progear is the only cave game i actually enjoy playing. Not sure if that qualifies as bullethell or not really.

[Lemnear]

Some great replies and interesting digressions.
A few comments mention memorisation in non-Cave titles and even in action games in general. Of course I agree that pretty much all action games, especially shmups, have a high degree of memorisation - however, there is usually a balance that leaves spaces for improvisation. That is the area where the player can add style. To not just 1CC a game, but to do it with style, that is what high level gaming is.

I’m using a different example here because it’s difficult to reference a single shmup moment, but I’m sure everyone remembers seeing the legendary Daigo moment when he parried Justin Wong’s Chun-li super with next to no energy left in Third Strike - that is playing with style. Great shmups for playing with style are Raiden Fighters Jet and Battle Garegga. The balance is just right for players to add their own personality. In Cave shooters I just feel I’m going along for the ride, there’s no room for me to add anything.

I found DoDonPachi to be the nearest "Daigo moment" game i've ever played, i'm slightly above to a rookie with the SHMUPS, but the way i can dodge in DDP is incredible...is the only SHMUP that let me total improvisation with the dodges! Maybe is less punitive than other games, i don't know.
If i try to do the same with other games, i'll simply explode immediately.

I've played only few CAVE's game by the way.

[cfx]

.

[Lemnear]

That's a pretty bold assumption that everyone knows what you're talking about. I have very little interest in fighters period, and zero interest in what I assume is some reference to a tournament? I have no idea who "Daigo" is or what is "legendary" about whatever you're talking about.

Was probably the best eSport moment ever..
Daigo parried 15 consecutive (lethal) fast and multidirectional attacks and then win with low HP....the crowd went banana.

[Sloppy_J]

Some great replies and interesting digressions.
A few comments mention memorisation in non-Cave titles and even in action games in general. Of course I agree that pretty much all action games, especially shmups, have a high degree of memorisation - however, there is usually a balance that leaves spaces for improvisation. That is the area where the player can add style. To not just 1CC a game, but to do it with style, that is what high level gaming is.

I’m using a different example here because it’s difficult to reference a single shmup moment, but I’m sure everyone remembers seeing the legendary Daigo moment when he parried Justin Wong’s Chun-li super with next to no energy left in Third Strike - that is playing with style. Great shmups for playing with style are Raiden Fighters Jet and Battle Garegga. The balance is just right for players to add their own personality. In Cave shooters I just feel I’m going along for the ride, there’s no room for me to add anything.

I found DoDonPachi to be the nearest "Daigo moment" game i've ever played, i'm slightly above to a rookie with the SHMUPS, but the way i can dodge in DDP is incredible...is the only SHMUP that let me total improvisation with the dodges! Maybe is less punitive than other games, i don't know.
If i try to do the same with other games, i'll simply explode immediately.

I've played only few CAVE's game by the way.

Interesting.
Of course it is possible that I simply don’t “get” Cave shooters.

[el_rika]

The Daigo moment is probably the most impressive competitive moment ever. Anyone should watch it, even if they're not versed in VS games.

Regarding Cave and memorization, in my opinion and experience, i'd say, at least last gen Cave games (2004+) are the most non-linear, least memorization heavy shmups in the genre.
Screen space management, enemy locations, yeah, no doubt are of paramount importance, but as far as bullet patterns, the devs were incredibly smart and cunning. The ballance between aimed and randomized bullets is downright flawless, and the level pacing is absolutelly on point.

Cave devs invented the bullet hell genre/cancel based scoring and did it best, but i totally get if one simply doesn't appreciate this style. From a development point of view however, you'd be hard pressed to find many faults.

[cfx]

.

[XoPachi]

Was probably the best eSport moment ever..
Daigo parried 15 consecutive (lethal) fast and multidirectional attacks and then win with low HP....the crowd went banana.

Can't stand fighters but this and Wombo Combo never get old for me. It's the insane crowd popoffs that get the blood pumping. God, I love it.

[Lander]

Evo Moment 37 is a poor analogy, seeing as the problem space that allowed it to emerge - and be considered so impactful - was contingent on two top-tier competitive players clashing in a high-stakes environment, on top of Third Strike's innately exciting mechanics.

One does not simply make a Daigo Moment STG, seeing as arcade superplayers will soon enough figure out how to reproduce whatever its coolest, hardest, or most unlikely moment is with shocking consistency. Rather, the potential for, and density of, such moments are what define 'stylish' in such a setting.

Touhou has an entertainingly convoluted history with collision. The early Windows games have square hitboxes, which obviously don't work very well when you're trying to represent a big circle. EoSD is plagued with unintuitive killers. Instead of revising the implementation, the subsequent games would attempt to mitigate the problem via smaller hitboxes, which would then enable the overwhelmingly visually dense stuff that followed (TH08 being the most exaggerated case). What really doesn't help is the player's indicator being drawn under the bullet layer.

8 is exactly what I was thinking of those big buggers from the last few bosses that appear to have an outer obscurance layer and an inner danger one, but are pretty hit or miss for actually lining up with the collision.

Great shmups for playing with style are Raiden Fighters Jet and Battle Garegga. The balance is just right for players to add their own personality. In Cave shooters I just feel I’m going along for the ride, there’s no room for me to add anything.

Alright then, how about Ibara - does Garegga 2 in all but name also get tarred with the same brush?
Regular label, since Black is about 10x more CAVEy.

Wombo Combo

Naming a popoff after a pizza is the most FGC thing ever