Stupid question: Best mate CRT 15KHz for FW900

[Unicrt]

Hello.

Assuming you have the FW900 and are looking for an additional CRT (to put next to it) that is 15KHz compatible, and is as good as the FW900 in the sense that it is large and has excellent picture quality, which CRT would you choose? Would it be a PVM/BVM? A consumer CRT? How many inches? Why?

Mind you, in theory it could be any SD-TV, but in this question we are assuming you are looking for something that would go well with the FW900.

[Dochartaigh]

Myself personally, I LOVE razor sharp and thick 'scanlines' (blanking lines), so for me it's a PVM or BVM.

Personal preference is a strong thing though... some people like the consumer CRT look (which can be super close to the arcade look, depending on the CRT and the connection type). Some people also don't like how higher TV Line CRT's (like PVM/BVM's) can make 480i/interlaced flicker more pronounced than a lower TVL consumer set (and people can be WAY more sensitive to that than others). Some people like how lower TVL consumer sets (many times over lower quality signals like RF or Composite) blend everything together more, and/or reminds them of their childhood... so really depends on what YOU like.

Size can also be a factor like you mentioned.... But in this modern world I consider the FW900 to be a pretty small screen size (or at least me or any of my buddies into PC gaming haven't owned something that small size in maybe 10ish? years now). 24" is fine for desktop/work (usually with a double or triple monitor setup), but IMO not gaming (but to each their own). The 15khz set is where I would set the bar higher size-wise. In my area (Philly/NYC area), I find it's actually WAY easier to find a nice, higher-end, 32" or 36" behemoth (mostly consumer, but there are pro sets that big too), than something smaller like a 20", so that's a benefit right there. Plenty of higher-end consumer sets can nearly (or do) rival their same-size PVM counterparts (honestly though, that's mostly because PVM's that large tend to be WAY older, like the cube-type Sony PVM-2530/2950/3230's... unless you can possibly find a NEC or Mitsubishi one).

[DejahThoris]

Hello.

Assuming you have the FW900 and are looking for an additional CRT (to put next to it) that is 15KHz compatible, and is as good as the FW900 in the sense that it is large and has excellent picture quality, which CRT would you choose? Would it be a PVM/BVM? A consumer CRT? How many inches? Why?

Mind you, in theory it could be any SD-TV, but in this question we are assuming you are looking for something that would go well with the FW900.

If an FW900 is going to be your comparison point, you should probably just get a D24 since it's basically the high end late model BVM equivalent of your high end late model PC monitor. Even an incredibly similar tube.

[spmbx]

First reply is spot-on. It depends on your preference.

[Unicrt]

Thank you all very much for your answers.

Myself personally, I LOVE razor sharp and thick 'scanlines' (blanking lines), so for me it's a PVM or BVM.

You are right, preference plays an important role. The closest thing to BVM that I got to test is FW900 at 240p 120Hz. I love it But I feel like I'll like having one monitor for native 15KHz, and the other for HD content. The PVM/BVM seems to be a great choice. Thank you.

About sizes, Too bad there are no 4:3 BVMs in that many inches. A D32 would be the closest, but I see a lot of comments (from other communities) saying that's not for 240p. They tell me I won't enjoy it because my FW900 has a higher resolution, and that the HDR TV's colors outperform the BVM and for less kilos. But I don't know, I feel like if I found that BVM I'd take it, and I wouldn't care about anything. (If the price is not too high, of course).

If an FW900 is going to be your comparison point, you should probably just get a D24 since it's basically the high end late model BVM equivalent of your high end late model PC monitor. Even an incredibly similar tube.

It is an interesting option. I like it because they are certainly similar. I'm guessing 240p and 720p would look much sharper/dense on the 24 inch screen instead of a 32. I even thought a 14 BVM might be incredibly sharp, but D24 has 1000TVL

First reply is spot-on. It depends on your preference.

You are right. Anyway I wanted to ask the question because I want to know what you would do in my place. I want to know what you would value if you already had in your hands a monitor like FW900. I say this because in my house I have many excellent consumer CRTs, but since I got my monitor my preferences changed, mainly because none of my current CRT TVs are bigger (funny enough in my house we don't even have 1080p LCD, so it's already the monitor with more resolution I have). I was open to know the diversity of opinions, that's why I didn't specify my situation, and I even preferred to put "stupid question" in the title, to avoid getting into intense discussions like the ones I've had with other fans from another community lol

[orange808]

For watching movies and streaming in a well lit common era, the newest LCDs are a great choice for a bright and durable screen. There's no one perfect display. Gotta analyze your installation environment, consider the use case, and pick what works best. In many cases, that can still be an LCD.

[bobrocks95]

Availability is a huge concern these days. I have no clue where to find a PVM/BVM and you won't exactly have the luxury of choice depending on where you live. I agree that I think owning an FW900 kind of pushes you towards a late era BVM, but I don't think you necessarily need to hold out for one- likely any professional 15kHz display will look quite nice compared to the consumer sets you have available (depending on what they are).

[Josh128]

Option 1. SIZE MATTERS!! If you really want the ultimate SD CRT experience, find a 36" Trinitron Wega-- model doesnt really matter, but you do want one with component in. Flat or curved screen really doesnt matter, as either can have glaring geometry issues. I happen to have a 36" flat screen Wega that I was able to play a bit with and get REALLY good geometry from with a bit of tinkering. Be aware that these big Wegas produce pretty sharp SD pixels, sharper than you probably grew up with, which is amplified by the size. If that turns you off, try option #2.

Option 2. Find a ~27"-32" slot mask consumer CRT with at least S-Video, but if you land one with component, all the better. Philips, Panasonic, Hitachi, Magnavox, RCA, hell, even Sanyo had some mighty nice SD slot mask units back in the day. 27" slot mask will produce the most authentic mid 90's SD arcade visual experience.

Option 3. Dont buy another huge bulky CRT, get a GBS-Control or an RT5x + HDMI > Component transcoder and upscale those consoles and add artificial scanlines. Both give you options that perfectly emulate 240p or 480i that look 100% authentic with no added lag on high res PC or HD CRTs.

IMO, PVMs are great, but if you are going to spend that much money and end up with something that looks similar to your FW900 + upscaler, just get an upscaler.

[fernan1234]

IMO, PVMs are great, but if you are going to spend that much money and end up with something that looks similar to your FW900 + upscaler, just get an upscaler.

The thing is though that once you go the upscaler route you have to deal with some tradeoffs that may be deal breakers for some. On the FW900 you keep CRT motion clarity, but you lose brightness if you use scanline filters to replicate the CRT look of both low res progressive as well as interlaced content. On a bright enough flat panel, you lose CRT motion clarity (you may gain some back using BFI, but that puts you back in the brightness loss problem plus additional ones like added lag in most TVs).

Option 1. SIZE MATTERS!!

And for another counterpoint, for CRTs at least size doesn't matter if you sit close enough to the tube. You may even find that low res content is especially suited for smaller screens. A smaller tube that also is very sharp and resolving can provide a very uniquely satisfying solution. A 20'' tube is already large enough to allow for couch gaming, though personally I still would recommend using it as a desk display. Since TC is used to using an FW900, adding a CRT for SD gaming on a desk would be fine too and could even go down to lower sizes like 17'' or even 14''.

Also worth noting that TC may want to look into multiformat pro monitors. Even if only to be used for SD, those often happen to be the sharpest and most well performing CRT monitors.

[kitty666cats]

JVC TM-H150CG with a RGB input card is a real solid choice IMO

[Josh128]

IMO, PVMs are great, but if you are going to spend that much money and end up with something that looks similar to your FW900 + upscaler, just get an upscaler.

The thing is though that once you go the upscaler route you have to deal with some tradeoffs that may be deal breakers for some. On the FW900 you keep CRT motion clarity, but you lose brightness if you use scanline filters to replicate the CRT look of both low res progressive as well as interlaced content. On a bright enough flat panel, you lose CRT motion clarity (you may gain some back using BFI, but that puts you back in the brightness loss problem plus additional ones like added lag in most TVs).

Option 1. SIZE MATTERS!!

And for another counterpoint, for CRTs at least size doesn't matter if you sit close enough to the tube. You may even find that low res content is especially suited for smaller screens. A smaller tube that also is very sharp and resolving can provide a very uniquely satisfying solution. A 20'' tube is already large enough to allow for couch gaming, though personally I still would recommend using it as a desk display. Since TC is used to using an FW900, adding a CRT for SD gaming on a desk would be fine too and could even go down to lower sizes like 17'' or even 14''.

Also worth noting that TC may want to look into multiformat pro monitors. Even if only to be used for SD, those often happen to be the sharpest and most well performing CRT monitors.

Its really all about personal preference, but he asked and I gave. Note that I said, "for the ultimate experience" when talking about size. Obviously the logistics and space required for these behemoths will not work for everyone. About the faux scanlines, brightness loss with a scaler is a non- issue with a Trinitron screen like the FW-900. Trinitons whole claim to fame is better brightness than a comparable sized shadow mask set. My 36" will easily burn your retinas at full brightness.

If he doesnt want to view 4:3 content on his FW-900, he could just get a good ol 4:3 17" or 19" PC CRT coupled with one of the above mentioned scalers. Even GunCon 2 works on them with the RT5X. If he doesnt want to go big, one of these would be a perfect complement to his FW-900.

[VEGETA]

is there any PC CRT or any CRT rather than PVM\BVM which can do 15khz and 31khz?

[tongshadow]

27"is as far as I would go on a CRT, past that the limitations and scalability of the technology just becomes more apparent. 240p still looks very good, but 480i looks softer compared to smaller tubes. However, this might not the case with the Sony KV series, they use "M-Type" tubes and probably look sharper than "A-Type" ones.
21" is the best I have ever seen 480i look, it's sharp enough to make such sources look almost like progressive, or maybe my 21" Panasonic's are just super damn sharp!

[fernan1234]

Its really all about personal preference, but he asked and I gave. Note that I said, "for the ultimate experience" when talking about size.

Well once you call something "the ultimate experience" you're kinda stepping out of the realm of personal preferences

Agreed with tongshadow that with CRT the bigger you go the more difficult it becomes to manage, and not notice, the flaws inherent to the tech. The "ultimate" for some may indeed lie in smaller sizes. In TC's case, given his standard is around a 24'' widescreen tube with the FW900, something comparable in a 4:3 SD-capable tube would be in the ~20'' range.

About the faux scanlines, brightness loss with a scaler is a non- issue with a Trinitron screen like the FW-900. Trinitons whole claim to fame is better brightness than a comparable sized shadow mask set.

The term "shadow mask" is rather broad. Later slot mask and dot mask tubes fully closed the gap with aperture-grille tubes. But that's besides the point. When it comes to PC CRTs (including those using AG tubes like Diamondtrons), there's a reason why people experiment with the 240p@120hz route, since the traditional 480p@60 with full "scanlines" filter route does lead to a duller picture (compared to what you get with a real 15khz CRT), and cranking up the brightness setting won't help and will throw off any calibration. Though then the 120hz people get stuck with bad motion so they insert black frames to fix it, which puts them right back to where they were with 480p@60. This is why for SD 60fps retro games the "ideal" remains a 15khz CRT, which after all is what TC is asking about.

[tacoguy64]

I'm in agreement with the sentiment, just depends on your preference. As an ex owner of 2 FW900, i used to pair them with a larger LCD. The FW900 is too small for my liking for compute use, especially when compared to an LCD. I have a separate area for console gaming.

Assuming size is no issue, i'm going with a presentation display like the NEC or Mitsubishi. Really sharp picture, with great looking colors and most important, big size. If space is a factor, i might look at a PVM or a similar size. . I also saw someone suggest getting an upscaler for the FW900. I used an XRGB Mini Frameister to test it out, and sure enough, it almost looked like my 20inch BVM. Some people love the look of consumer sets for console gaming so even that route is valid. So yeah, no real clear answer here.

[Gara]

I see a lot of people with higher end 20" multiformat sets as a companion to the FW900. So something like the Sony BVM-D20F1U or BVM-A20F1U that covers your 15khz and 31khz 4:3 needs. A 15khz only 20F1E with its 1000 TVL is also nice. If you have a video processor hooked up to your FW900 you can achieve much the same look on your FW900 if you don't mind the black bars on the side of the image.

In my opinion a better companion to a Sony aperture grill is a dot trio or slot mask. Personally I'd go for something like an Ikegami HTM-2070R or HTM-2050R. Both are 20" multiformat dot trios with beautiful bubble tubes that provide a nice contrast to a flat Sony. If you want size then a bigger multiformat presentation monitor like the NEC XM29 slot mask or Mitsubishi would be nice. You sacrifice a lot of things like sharpness as you go bigger though.

I wouldn't shy away from a good consumer set with component or RGB input. To your eyes a good consumer set may look a great deal better than a high TVL set. It's all down to personal preference.

It really is an endless rabbit hole. Availability is a huge issue, but you can negate that a bit if you have deep pockets.

[tongshadow]

PC CRT+Scaler is a cheap and accessible way to get 480p and up on a CRT, but 240p/480i sources pale in comparison to the real deal. These displays arent very bright to begin with, and by adding scanlines to get the proper look will just dull the picture even more.
The other useful case for a PC CRT+Scaler would be 240p games that were converted to 480i. When possible, you can force it to 480p and add scanlines (the OSSC allows this!), and you get back the original intended look. This is also very useful for Xbox arcade emulation because the console just refuses to output 240p, in this case, however, the 480p compatibility is a 100%.

[Josh128]

About 31KHz and up displays w/faux scanlines. They do lose brightness, but it should not be a deal breaker by any means. The resulting picture is razor sharp and produces BVM caliber TVL for even a run of the mill PC CRT.

Most people can control the lighting in their game room and game that way anyway for the most part-- not that its even really necessary, the brightness loss is not that big of a deal unless you can in a sun-lit room, which will affect CRTs of any kind and setup. Excellent scalers are easily available, so OP shouldnt be limited to 15KHz. Visually, the greatest considerations to the OP should almost certainly be:

1.) Size

2.) shadow mask vs aperture grille

3.) TVL


When opening the below, right click and hit "open link in new tab" to view full resolution.

Shadow mask image (high TVL): https://i.imgur.com/XEmtZQd.jpg

Shadow mask image (low TVL): https://i.imgur.com/AyRGQA7.jpg

Aperture grille image (low TVL): https://i.imgur.com/n8RmeaG.jpg

[Bassa-Bassa]

And for another counterpoint, for CRTs at least size doesn't matter if you sit close enough to the tube. You may even find that low res content is especially suited for smaller screens. A smaller tube that also is very sharp and resolving can provide a very uniquely satisfying solution. A 20'' tube is already large enough to allow for couch gaming, though personally I still would recommend using it as a desk display. Since TC is used to using an FW900, adding a CRT for SD gaming on a desk would be fine too and could even go down to lower sizes like 17'' or even 14''.

The arcade industry at least seems to disagree there, though. Until they didn't manage to reach 29'' for regular cabs they didn't stop (well, they actually didn't at 29'' either as you find 33'' as well, but I think they found out those were a bit overkill so never got the same popularity). And you're like 30cm away from the monitor. As a friend of mine says, experience is better when perception also is, so as long as you're within the limits of a governable displayed area, the bigger the screen, the better the immersion and therefore, the experience. It's true that at bigger sizes, picture quality may decrease for different factors, and that many just find that being able to perfectly discern the screen's grid and picture's lines in low resolution games has quite a countereffect to the intended naturalism of the original art, but I don't know anybody that, after playing properly at 29'', wants to go back to 20'', usability reasons apart.

Even though the OP doesn't specify what he really means with "going well with the FW900" -or even what he really wants to display (sources)-, a logical reading would be "what complements the FW900 better", so if he already has a +31khz 20'' monitor, a 15khz 25-29'' display is definitely what better fills the void. I'm not saying any bigger than that because being the forum we're on, I'd make sure that you can safely position the monitor vertically when needed (or permanently) and the displayed area isn't too big in the vertical dimension (29''/US 27'' may be already too big, even). So the aforementioned presentation monitors would be best, but don't understimate good RGB/component TVs - some models will let you do tate well enough.

is there any PC CRT or any CRT rather than PVM\BVM which can do 15khz and 31khz?

Arcade monitors apart, there those from Sharp and Fujitsu for their X68000 and FM Towns families of computers.

[VEGETA]

hmm so those are retro computers with crt? but crt can be used separately right?

how does it compare to others?

[Bassa-Bassa]

No first-hand experience with them, personally. You can use them with other sources but usually with an adapter.

There're also (big) NEC and Mitsubishi presentation monitors which are dual (and even tri-) sync and a bit more flexible.

[Unicrt]

Wow, I really appreciate all the responses, you all have helped me to see better, because even though each one had a different perspective, they were all valid. The only way to define the features of my monitor with one word, is "FW900", because it is the sum of all of them that makes FW900 what it is. Since you can't have everything, obviously, if FW900 were a+b+c, you would have to replace any of its values by 15Khz and you get many different CRTs. I see my question was much more open ended than I thought haha.

I think the smartest answer was that the shortest distance is BVM-20, but at the same time that doesn't make it the "best TV".

When opening the below, right click and hit "open link in new tab" to view full resolution.

Shadow mask image (high TVL): https://i.imgur.com/XEmtZQd.jpg
Shadow mask image (low TVL): https://i.imgur.com/AyRGQA7.jpg
Aperture grille image (low TVL): https://i.imgur.com/n8RmeaG.jpg

Well, I'm going to confess something to you, I was very impressed with the shadow mask pic. It looks too beautiful.

A friend tried to mount a Philips 29" ESF tube with Shadow Mask on a Nanao MS9 (for dynamic focus). He said that tube is the best shadow mask he knows, because according to him it shines as bright as a Trinitron and has good colors. Even I, being new to electronics, would like to have something like that, assuming it was for something big and with nice details like that shadow mask in your photo. But later I found out that many people's ESF died, it happened to my friend too, they say he has electronic failures.


I think my preference is bright and color. I've tried many tricks (upscaler, 240p120, filters, etc.) when my screen goes dark I get sad, and end up liking (albeit anti-retro haha) the ScaleFX filter because it allows my Trinitron to show its brightness, color, or even resolution (sprites outlines looks insanely cool).

Although there are CRTs bigger than my Trinitron, I used this as a TV on a few occasions to play Smash Ultimate with my friends from the couch. So I'm certainly used to this size.