Multi-console to multi-display setup challenges

[johnwoods]

Hi everyone,

I am trying to simplify my setup while incorporating an ever-increasing number of gaming devices connected to a PVM, an OLED TV and some external speakers. Basically I would like the minimum number of actions required to switch to playing on a different device so it's easy for anyone to be able to use the system. I have a mix of older analogue consoles, all outputting RGBs via Retro Gaming Cables Packapunch SCART cables, and some more modern consoles with HDMI outputs. I would like the selected device to display on the PVM and OLED TV simultaneously while having the audio come out of the external speakers.

The plan is to have all 4 HDMI inputs of the TV in use, with input 1 = PC (to be able to use 4K/HDR/VRR), input 2 = MiSTer (to be able to use the VRR functionality), input 3 = all digital consoles (via HDMI matrix switch) and input 4 = all analogue consoles (via gscartsw and RetroTINK 5X-Pro). This way I think it's a maximum of 2 actions to swap between devices; change the TV input and change the HDMI switch input if required, the SCART switching will be handled automatically on the gscartsw provided only one analogue console is powered on at a time.

I have made a schematic of the layout to better illustrate it, I don't currently own the HDFury Gamer2 or HD15-2-SCART devices and before I buy them I would really appreciate a second opinion to make sure I've not overlooked anything that can potentially lead to some compatibility issues. Despite a lot of research, scouring these forums and endless hours watching Bob from Retro RGB, I am having doubts on the following.

• HDMI to VGA converter - I have seen many options recommended (Porrta/Tendak etc.) and none of them are readily available for sale (I'm in the UK) except the HDFury devices. The HDFury Gamer2 seemed to suit my needs without going for the X3 or X4, I assume this will work well to convert the HDMI to RGBHV and then I can use the HD15-2-SCART to convert it to RGBs so all devices coming out of the gscartsw have the same RGBs format
• SCART Switch input conflict - I understand that the gscartsw prioritises the inputs in sequence from 1 to 8 so as long as the potentially powered devices like HDFury Gamer2/HD15-2-SCART are on input 8 then if I have another console active on any of the inputs 1-7 they should take priority, correct?
• 20L2 PVM input signal compatibility - The output from the HDFury Gamer2 will be 1080p as all the digital consoles will be set to this resolution by default. How will the Sony 20L2 PVM handle this input? Will I actually need a downscaler here and maybe there's a better choice instead of the HDFury Gamer2 for that purpose?
• Audio routing - For the audio signal, I wanted to keep it simple by having just a single input to the external speakers. Am I missing something for this to work? I see that for digital consoles they will pass audio directly via HDMI to the TV which will then output to the speakers via the Optical audio output. For the analog consoles they will output their audio to the RetroTINK 5X-Pro which will send it via HDMI to the TV and then also get passed to the external speakers via Optical audio output. Does this seem like a reliable and low-lag option?

Thanks for any advice on my setup
John

[alamone]

I tried to have all my systems connected at once before, but I just concluded it's easier in terms of wire management and space to just hook up one or two systems as you want to play them. That said, if you want to make things more simplified:

You could add an AV receiver that has HDMI auto switching so that you don't have to manually change the HDMI input. Of course you have to make sure the TV is on the right HDMI input as well, some TVs do have auto switching.

You could consider something like a Harmony hub, where you can program routines that will set the correct inputs on your TV, receiver, and whatever other devices you have in your setup. Logitech discontinued it, so alternatives like the Broadlink RM4 might be better. That way, you can label routines like "Sega Saturn" that would set all the correct inputs on all your gear, and even turn it on automatically if you have some smart plugs. You would typically use your smartphone to launch routines, and maybe setup a voice assistant like Alexa to launch routines as well.

For audio, yeah you can let the RetroTink digitize it, but it feels like a waste to convert analog to digital and back to analog, I would personally route it separately and directly to whatever speaker you're using.
I use a powered mixing device called Maker Hart Loop Mixer, it supports individual volume controls on 5 separate 3.5mm audio inputs. I've tried cheaper passive switches, but they introduce noise and interference into the signal.

[Dochartaigh]

HDFury Gamer2 doesn't mention downscaling anywhere (only mentions "Allow DVD playback with upscaling up to 1080p on PS3/Elite or any others HDMI source"), so to go to your 20L2, a Standard Definition-only 240p/480i CRT, sounds like you will need a downscaler (which the 5x can do... but that's used in the upscaling chain now it looks like).

Also not convinced the Extron DXP will be a good HDMI switch for you. I had problems on their SMX with HDMI plane, which seems to be extremely similar and from the same era. Can't recall exactly what (maybe I mentioned it in another post I made here), but it didn't play nice will all my HDMI sources - I want to say in particular different multiplier modes from the OSSC on certain consoles... maybe it'll be OK since you're just feeding it broadcast-standard 1080p signals though... I also don't see Extron listed

Also think using 4x inputs on the TV is a bad choice - one more thing to switch and you say you want to keep the number of actions down. If you're using a proper/fully-(VRR)compatible switch there's no reason to be using 4x inputs on the TV.

For automation, since you want the "minimum number of actions required to switch to playing on a different device"... this is going to be a pain.... doable, but just depends on how much time you want to spend and what your tech level is. People literally have 1-touch routines which can do everything from close the automated blinds, dim the lights, power the outlet for a single console, switch the input(s), etc. etc. etc... but very involved. Even if you have several button presses for each console, just the cable management alone (outside of any automation) takes hard-core dedication in itself...

Anyway, give a look to the links in my sig - my one (older) YouTube video shows a setup with "15x systems + 2x matrix switchers + 3x upscalers + multiple converters / transcoders / up/down scalers for use on professional RGB CRT's, AND handle upscaling to a modern 4K flatscreen" --that was with the problematic Extron HDMI switch I moved away from after that FYI. You can also look into automation with my CRT-C touchscreen control (more links in the bottom of my first post there) - ideal for any RS232 controllable devices (like the Extron if you go that route), but also can be even more ideal if you use the Extron IP Link box (model with IR) which you can ALSO use their IR controller on those as well (thus combining everything together... again, in theory, as this is high level stuff that required massive setup and testing, if not coding as well).

[orange808]

Agreed on the PC.

I haven't found a switch yet that can pass VRR, HDR, deep color, and high refresh rates without intermittent (or worse) issues. You've got that right. Plug in directly (when possible) and save yourself a lot of hassle.

In my experience, Amazon has become an extension of alibaba and everything is junk. Meanwhile, pro gear manufacturers don't give a darn about gaming.

[Triple Lei]

All right, I need to ask: what did you use to make that graphic? I tried to make something similar in Google Docs for my own setup and it didn't turn out so hot. (EDIT: Thanks johnwoods for the PM!)

My own setup (simplified version):

gscart switch > RGB2COMP >

gcomp switch #1 >

• OUTPUT 1: composite out to RetroTINK 5X-Pro
• OUTPUT 2: component out to gcomp switch #2

gcomp switch #2 >

• OUTPUT 1: component out to optional powered component splitter
• > optional powered component splitter outputs to (1) CRT and (2) OSSC
• OUTPUT 2: component out to RetroTINK 5X-Pro

• All the "g" switches switch automatically.
• To use the composite inputs on the gcomp switch, you must also use one of the two outputs as a dedicated composite output. That is, don't expect your RetroTINK 5X-Pro to somehow extract a composite signal from a component out-only setup. This is also why one gcomp switch definitely isn't enough, but two should cover everything you need. Unfortunately they've only been going UP in price.

RetroTINK 5X-Pro >

• Default is component but will switch automatically to composite or whatever you need.
• The SCART adapter you'll get bundled with the RT5X falls out too easily. I got lucky and found I already had something that actually stays in place (has RCA jacks on the large front area and has a SCART input as well)
• Don't underestimate composite output! Good to experience every once in a while. For me, worth picking up an older PlayStation that had both the multi-out and RCA jacks.

TESmart 16x1 HDMI switcher >

• Switches to the newest-recognized source automatically... most of the time. I'm not 100% sure on this. Maybe it factors in priority too? I have my RetroTINK 5X-Pro always on in port 1, and the switcher will switch to my PS3 or PS4 no problem, but if I want to watch a Blu-ray or stream on my Apple TV device, I have to manually punch in the number on the front panel of the HDMI switcher.

HDMI splitter >

• OUTPUT 1: HDTV
• OUTPUT 2: 1x4 HDMI splitter
• 3.5mm audio output: Maker Hart Loop Mixer
• This is probably the most important part of the setup! Besides getting around any pesky HDCP issues, analog audio out means you're bypassing your TV's laggy audio output. The 3.5mm audio coming out here is definitely faster! That means music games won't have any unintentional lag-based difficulties if you play by ear.

1x4 HDMI splitter:

• OUTPUT 1: capture card
• OUTPUT 2: PC monitor
• OUTPUT 3: PC monitor (vertical)

Another thing to consider is your power. Obviously leaving all consoles plugged in all the time isn't good, but I know I would be extremely annoyed if I had to plug and unplug all the time. So I daisy chained a bunch of power strips with individual switches:



I don't care to add another one and there's no more room in the Kallax anyway, so those other systems get rotated and are just placed on the floor. In fact I'll probably move my Genesis there if I ever want to do any "Tower of Power" stuff, or play Sonic & Knuckles.

[johnwoods]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, much appreciated.

You could add an AV receiver that has HDMI auto switching so that you don't have to manually change the HDMI input...

• I couldn't find any matrix switch that has automatic switching so just decided to live with that manual step to change inputs
• The Extron has a web interface (I haven't set up yet...) that means you can have a nice graphical way to change inputs on a phone or tablet. There's a good post on these forums about it from Dochartaigh which he also linked below
• For the audio if I route it separately it just means I have to manually switch the speaker input too, most likely I will route it separately anyway and then I can just use either option

HDFury Gamer2 doesn't mention downscaling anywhere (only mentions "Allow DVD playback with upscaling up to 1080p on PS3/Elite or any others HDMI source"), so to go to your 20L2...

• Thanks for confirming regarding the downscaler, I was afraid I would need one but hoping not. Do you know of a good single device that can covert HDMI to analogue (RGBHV, RGBs or YPbPr) and downscale that is not too expensive? Would seem like overkill to use a second RetroTINK 5X-Pro
• The Extron HDMI switch is the DXP 84 HD 4K (blue box on the schematic). Maybe it's different from the non HD 4K version? You got me worried now but hopefully it's fine as it's just receiving standard 1080p signals as you say
• I can't find a switch that will support VRR/HDR/4k etc. with required number of inputs,. at least not within my budget. I would definitely do as you say if such a switch was readily available
• I was just watching your video yesterday before I posted as part of my research and that's why I knew about the nice Extron web interface option Your setup in that video is a sight to behold, thanks for sharing it! I agree there are trade-offs between complexity of setting everything up to make it as simple to the user as possible vs having a simpler setup and a few more actions to switch etc. but I can live with a couple of input changing actions

Agreed on the PC....

• Yeah, good to have a second opinion on that topic. I saw the HDFury Vrroom which looked like it could do that but is also very expensive and probably adding complexity unnecessarily

All right, I need to ask: what did you use to make that graphic? I tried to make something similar...

• I just made it using PowerPoint, so I imagine there are much better software options for such layout schematics. I do find it works better than Google Docs for this kind of application though. I shared the template with you via a PM
• That is a good idea about having the individually switched and labelled power strips. What model did you use? It seems easier with US plugs to find good, compact power strips like this vs the chunky UK plugs I'm dealing with

Coming back to my original questions from my post:

• HDMI to VGA converter/downscaler - It looks like not many options for a single device that can convert HDMI to analogue (RGBHV, RGBs or YPbpr) and also downscale to 480i/240p for the 20L2. I can see the HDFury X4 as a 'simple' option but it outputs resolution only as low as 576i or 480p so still likely won't work with the Sony 20L2
• SCART Switch input conflict - Still no clearer on this topic; I understand that the gscartsw prioritises the inputs in sequence from 1 to 8 so as long as the potentially powered devices like HDFury Gamer2/HD15-2-SCART are on input 8 then if I have another console active on any of the inputs 1-7 they should take priority, correct?
• Audio routing - Seems like this setup will work but may as well have a direct analogue input to the speakers from the SCART output of the gscartsw

One last point, my setup is all currently boxed and in transit. So this post is all part of me making a 'new and improved setup 2.0' in the near future but I don't have access right now to test anything.
Thanks

[kitty666cats]

There's no HDMI converters that can downscale to 240p, if that's what you're looking for. Your RT5X could do so with an HDMI to component on the input AND output (so you'd need 2HDMI to components), OR you could chain 1 HDMI to component in front of a GBS-C and do 240p component out to your SD CRT. The latter would obviously be much cheaper than getting a second RT5X. Either way, it's gonna be a bit complicated. You could get a HDMI to component that scales down to 720p, 480p & 480i... but no 240p.

https://www.amazon.com/Musou-Component- ... B01F6URXYY

This can downscale 1080p to 720p, 480p & 480i... again, no 240p / you'd need a non-scaling HDMI to component chained in front of a GBS-C (which can only downscale 480p and 480i btw). Then a 'VGA' to 3RCA component dongle on the GBS-C output, which you manually have to set for 15kHz & component out via the app.

https://www.amazon.com/Component-Conver ... 082HT11MH/

Here's a non-scaling HDMI to component that works well


~~~~~~~

Basically, you're opening up a world of complications wanting to get 1080p sources out to your SD PVM

[orange808]

There's no HDMI converters that can downscale to 240p,

DVDO iScan HD+ accepts DVI, outputs analog, and it has programmable 240p output. Some Corio2 machines accept DVI and output analog 240p as well. Corio2 requires research to make sure you get one that does what you want.

It looks like not many options for a single device that can convert HDMI to analogue (RGBHV, RGBs or YPbpr) and also downscale to 480i/240p for the 20L2.

Not that we know of.

Building a GBS Control is the cheapest way to get 240p. Accepts and outputs analog. It's best to feed RGBS to the GBS Control for that, so you'll need HDMI/DVI to RGBS. After you pay yourself for the time/effort, buy a DAC, and buy sync combiner, it's more expensive than just the cost of the GBS parts. People often state the raw price of GBS Control parts as the total cost, but there's more to it. You still have to build it and convert the signals.

The iScan HD+ machines are getting old and hard to find, but that will work on that monitor. Corio2 machines got crazy expensive. It's too bad, because they do a good job and they are relatively new machines and designs.

The Emotia is another downscaler you'll hear about, but I'd stay away from it; those are expensive and old machines with tricky power supplies. A lot of people still post about the quality, but it's an emotional thing. When you spent that much money on a machine, you really need to believe it's the best. In reality, the other options look just as nice.

That's all the good options for 240p. The other ones I know of have way too much lag or poor video quality.

--------

You probably want a second machine for 480i. There's no single solution. The best option for 480i is the Extron VSC scan converters. Any model will do. You're not feeding extremely high resolution input, anyway. Even the old ones are pretty good. I can't tell the difference between the 300/900 series and the 500/700 series. I don't think there is a difference as a scan converter. The 300 and 900 have more scaling options and I believe the later 500/700 are just a reimplementation of Extron's scan converter technology without the other options. The older 100 and 200 are also decent compared to the other 480i options.

----------

That's a lot of investment. It may be easier to leave the PVM off sometimes. ???

[SavagePencil]

All right, I need to ask: what did you use to make that graphic? I tried to make something similar in Google Docs for my own setup and it didn't turn out so hot.

I highly recommend Draw.IO (aka https://app.diagrams.net). It has nice arrow-routing, hard points, grouping, etc. And integrates with Google Drive.

[Dochartaigh]

There's no HDMI converters that can downscale to 240p, if that's what you're looking for. Your RT5X could do so with an HDMI to component on the input AND output (so you'd need 2HDMI to components), OR you could chain 1 HDMI to component in front of a GBS-C and do 240p component out to your SD CRT. The latter would obviously be much cheaper than getting a second RT5X. Either way, it's gonna be a bit complicated.

I think this is TVOne Corio2 to the rescue again... not per se a "HDMI converter" for sure, but certainly gives you a bunch of options to get HDMI into it, and 240p out (via your choice of RGBHV, RGBS, YPbPr, etc.). Out of my realm of long-term testing as I don't use HDMI much in my setup, but I did make a video for some customers (been selling these extra TVOne C2-750's I still have way too many of) to show them several ways to get HDMI into these devices since many of them were asking about it.

Still have no clue on the best way to get audio out of HDMI though (besides an extractor in front of the C2, or using something like the Tendak I show in my video)... the manual is nil about how audio really works on these on nearly every C2 model (despite them literally even having stickers on them which say "HDMI COMPATIBLE with audio support" lol).

Building a GBS Control is the cheapest way to get 240p. Accepts and outputs analog. It's best to feed RGBS to the GBS Control for that, so you'll need HDMI/DVI to RGBS. After you pay yourself for the time/effort, buy a DAC, and buy sync combiner, it's more expensive than just the cost of the GBS parts. People often state the raw price of GBS Control parts as the total cost, but there's more to it. You still have to build it and convert the signals.

Only accepts 480p to downscale to 480i though, correct? (unless they updated something on it I didn't hear about)... so useless for his setup which is all set to 1080p output.

All right, I need to ask: what did you use to make that graphic? I tried to make something similar in Google Docs for my own setup and it didn't turn out so hot.

I highly recommend Draw.IO (aka https://app.diagrams.net). It has nice arrow-routing, hard points, grouping, etc. And integrates with Google Drive.

If you're going to spend hours and hours drawing (and initially learning) a new program... would highly suggest taking up Adobe InDesign and/or Illustrator... in the end it honestly probably takes even longer than a program solely meant for diagramming, but has zero constraints in getting exactly what you want portrayed, and can be used for a billion other visual things you'll no doubt have uses for, for literally the rest of your life (especially professional/work life).

That's what I used for my own overtly complex drawing, which was a MUST to keep all this crap straight in my head (and whenever I'm in the back of my server rack wiring something, I literally STILL pull this up on my phone lol... simply way too much going on back there to not have a diagram map).

[johnwoods]

DVDO iScan HD+ accepts DVI, outputs analog, and it has programmable 240p output. Some Corio2 machines accept DVI and output analog 240p as well. Corio2 requires research to make sure you get one that does what you want.

The Corio2 does seem to be the one, the excellent tutorial by Donchartlaigh is the best resource. Thanks for summarising the other device options.

I think this is TVOne Corio2 to the rescue again... not per se a "HDMI converter" for sure, but certainly gives you a bunch of options to get HDMI into it, and 240p out (via your choice of RGBHV, RGBS, YPbPr, etc.). Out of my realm of long-term testing as I don't use HDMI much in my setup.

This is a phrase I never thought I would use, but yes "TVOne Corio2 to the rescue" I just watched your short video on the way to use the DVI models with HDMI. This is exactly what I was looking for, the 'holy grail'! So now I can input 1080p directly from my HDMI switch, connected to the Corio using a cheap HDMI to DVI-D cable, downscale to 240p or 480i (I believe) then output from the DVI-I port using a cheap DVI-I to VGA cable (RGBHV) connected to the HD15-2-SCART into my gscartsw. Another fun box to tinker with that has so much versatility, though very possibly another 'rabbit hole' to get lost in For the audio, the Extron Matrix switch will be outputting the digital audio feed directly to the TV which then goes to the speakers so I think I'm covered. It also has SPDIF Coax outputs to break-out the audio if I need that option.

Only accepts 480p to downscale to 480i though, correct? (unless they updated something on it I didn't hear about)... so useless for his setup which is all set to 1080p output.

Correct, all my devices would by default be set to 1080p output for the best scaling on the OLED. So the Corio2 accepting 1080p digital input is a big win.

If you're going to spend hours and hours drawing (and initially learning) a new program... would highly suggest taking up Adobe InDesign and/or Illustrator...

You know, I started off with a basic layout and thought I'll just do a 'quick sketch' of the new layout option. Well as usual with these projects it went from a quick sketch to a complex schematic! Very true that Illustrator is am amazing tool, I have been using Inkscape a lot recently to make vector graphics for an arcade cabinet build but would've never thought to use it for a layout as well. It's a shame the picture of yours is so small in the forum so I can't appreciate it in all its glory.

I updated schematic with the Corio2 so I think I'm all set. I realise the PS2 also outputs 480i in this scenario in case anyone else has that feedback


Thanks again everyone, this feedback really is so helpful

[kitty666cats]

Happy you seem to have this all figured out pretty quickly, I wish you good luck getting the Corio2 unit nice 'n configured with ease. You should post pics of your setup once it's all said n done!

[orange808]

The Corio2 does seem to be the one, the excellent tutorial by Donchartlaigh is the best resource.

The C2 is lovely. Thanks for the link, but I'm good. I've played around with the C2 a little. I dabble.

Anyhow, don't forget to set up multiple profiles for your consoles to minimize stuttering, because there's no frame lock. Lag is similar to Framemeister.

1080p upscaled signals will often have clipped lines. Mind that when you downscale. You may also encounter artifacts or incorrect output if you downscale an image with fake scanlines. Not sure what kinds of sampling errors you may encounter with upscaling to 1920 horizontal samples and coming back to ~720 samples.

You may pick up chroma subsampling at your upscaler, but it shouldn't make too much difference.

Good luck.

[johnwoods]

Happy you seem to have this all figured out pretty quickly, I wish you good luck getting the Corio2 unit nice 'n configured with ease. You should post pics of your setup once it's all said n done!

Well, I figured it out on paper pretty quickly Tinkering and setting it up physically is a whole different story... with my international house move I'm sad to say I may only have this all setup close to the end of the year. But having a dedicated games room is a very exciting prospect so I will be documenting it with plenty of photos no doubt!

The C2 is lovely. Thanks for the link, but I'm good. I've played around with the C2 a little. I dabble.

Anyhow, don't forget to set up multiple profiles for your consoles to minimize stuttering, because there's no frame lock. Lag is similar to Framemeister.

1080p upscaled signals will often have clipped lines. Mind that when you downscale. You may also encounter artifacts or incorrect output if you downscale an image with fake scanlines. Not sure what kinds of sampling errors you may encounter with upscaling to 1920 horizontal samples and coming back to ~720 samples.

You may pick up chroma subsampling at your upscaler, but it shouldn't make too much difference.

The C2 certainly does seem like it's amazing but will be a huge time sink. The fun of retro gaming. Thanks for the tips.