What am I missing out on w/ $50 161n1 compared to NeoSD Pro?

[BazookaBen]

I mean, not some annual soccer games or mahjong, but what am I really missing out on?

TerraOnion's NeoSD Pro is available for preorder, $650 in the US at Stone Age gamer.

I'm very new to the MVS, just got a MV1F I'm in the process of consolizing.

With the NeoSD Pro, you of course have access to the full library of MVS and AES, as well as some NGCD stuff. With the 161n1, you have a lot, but not everything: https://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/MVS_Multicart (and of course, there are a few games that don't work correctly)

So what games do you guys play on MVS that you absolutely love that aren't available on the 161n1?

[donluca]

I have a 138-in-1 and I'm pretty much set.

Some time ago I even went as far as buying the Fatal Fury games (all of them) because they are missing, but I didn't really play them that much, so I ended up selling them.

The only thing I actually miss a real multi-cart is for homebrew and hacks like Metal Slug 2 Turbo, but I might buy a MS2 cart for cheap and replace the ROM.

[Steven]

No Shock Troopers alone = 161-in-1 is a useless piece of shit that can go to hell. You NEED Shock Troopers and 2nd Squad is not a suitable replacement. The additional losses of Waku Waku 7, all of the Real Bout games, Fatal Fury Special, Twinkle Star Sprites, and Windjammers are also pretty good reasons to not get this thing.

[bobrocks95]

You don't get a properly designed 5V cartridge that isn't damaging your system, but I'll add that no Magician Lord on any of them is weird to see.

[SGGG2]

I hope someone eventually figures out how to write ROMs to the 161

https://www.neo-geo.com/forums/index.ph ... ic.256955/

[Steven]

You don't get a properly designed 5V cartridge that isn't damaging your system, but I'll add that no Magician Lord on any of them is weird to see.

Yeah, that too. I don't really feel like putting weird voltages into my AES, and Magician Lord is also considered something of a staple of the early Neo Geo library. It's an acquired taste, I think, but I kind of like it and I know a few people who consider it their favourite Neo Geo game.

[BazookaBen]

You don't get a properly designed 5V cartridge that isn't damaging your system, but I'll add that no Magician Lord on any of them is weird to see.

I've read a little bit about the 161 cart, like GadgetUK's fixes for sound on the early versions of it. I didn't see anything about the cart voltage damaging the system. Just the other way around (cart eventually dying from its own voltage regulation). Seems like it would have come up in the discussion?

[PC Engine Fan X!]

The MVS carts of Blazing Star (with it's official MVS cart release debut back in February of 1998 for worldwide sales/distribution including the USA) & Strikers 1945 Plus are worth owning with a MVS motherboard setup indeed.

The reason I know MVS BS had a 2/1998 debut is one of my local arcade hangouts, Nickle Play, had gotten in a brand new MVS BS kit installed on a 4-slot "Big Red" MVS cab setup during that particular month -- the owner liked carrying/stocking his arcade with the usual arcade stg pcb offerings such as Psikyo's Strikers 1945 (distributed in the USA by Jaleco USA arcade subsidiary), Atlus/Cave's Donpachi (this arcade pcb came with a full-sized backlit Donpachi marquee that was exclusive for the USA arcade market & was sold/distributed stateside by Atlus USA arcade subsidiary -- they never did sell/distribute the International Version of Dodonpachi arcade pcb kit for the 1997-1998 timeline for the USA arcade market despite it having all-English text for the entire game -- their loss in not doing so), Toaplan's Outzone, Seibu Kaihatsu's Viper Phase 1 U.S.A. & Raiden Fighters 1 (both SP1 carts running on Seibu's SP1 motherboard setup) and even the occasional arcade stg pcb oddity with Dooyong's R-Shark (Dooyong's final swan song arcade pcb release indeed). Nickle Play shut their doors for good in May of 1998 which was the end of being able play those above listed arcade stg pcbs properly.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Josh128]

Magician Lord , NAM 1975, Cyber Lip, and a couple others, thats about it.

[deezdrama]

The latest revisions of the 161 should have all the hardware fixes implemented that early boards needed modifications to fix sound and voltage issues.

Id love a neosd but prices just cant be justified in my head. They dont play homebrew that used special chips, so I just grabbed the latest 161 in 1 and if your lucky the china 60 in 1 is still available which gives you 10 more games not on the 161 cart.

https://youtu.be/fEJXwlp2iX0

For the others I just bought repro carts from blazepro or timeharvest..... theres really only a handful of titles missing that I wanted. To each their own though.

[bobrocks95]

Just want to clarify that "fixed voltage issues" doesn't mean that they've added proper voltage translation, just that they're "fixed" just enough to run. They still have 3.3V pins connected to every line on the 5V bus, which is harmful to your hardware.

Seeing voltage regulators and having had a yellow PCB having game like that myself, the blazepro and Timeharvest custom bootlegs are also improperly designed. And quite expensive for a bootleg with the wrong voltages. You can get properly made conversions with 5V EPROMs and original SNK boards for less...

[thegreathopper]

Get yourself a unibios and Ver 1 of this cart and you are all set, Razoola added a function especially for this multi cart - cuts all the crap, nice front end and you can get a really good selection of games add a 1 slot board all in for approx 100 dollars, euros or pounds.

A bargain, I also have the NeoSD multi cart but mainly have the 161 banana cart in my cab, so much faster to swap games, it’s instant.

[BazookaBen]

They still have 3.3V pins connected to every line on the 5V bus, which is harmful to your hardware.

So, in my understanding, this is theoretically harmful to the MVS hardware because it could increase heat in the chips from increased current? I did watch a video recently where a guy compared the temperature of his MVS' chips playing a legit cart for 30 minutes, against the same game on the 161, and the temperatures were the same.

[bobrocks95]

They still have 3.3V pins connected to every line on the 5V bus, which is harmful to your hardware.

So, in my understanding, this is theoretically harmful to the MVS hardware because it could increase heat in the chips from increased current? I did watch a video recently where a guy compared the temperature of his MVS' chips playing a legit cart for 30 minutes, against the same game on the 161, and the temperatures were the same.

Excess heat is primarily a concern for the multicart. If the only issue was multicarts dying I don't think it would be that big of a deal, just buy another one when it craps out.

On the console side however the problem is excessive current being drawn on each bus line that especially in these crummier multicarts with no resistors is way more current than the output pins are rated to drive. See Columbus Circle Famicom carts killing consoles.

Unless someone has measured the current draw on each data/address pin and found they're lower than expected (highly doubt it) I wouldn't put one of those anywhere near my Neo Geo hardware.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180817042 ... -consoles/

[BazookaBen]

Yeah, but if not heat, then how is the extra current is actually damaging the hardware?

Sorry if this is an ignorant question. It's just that these multicarts have been used for 15+ years now, and I'm not seeing widespread failures of Neo Geo systems.

[bobrocks95]

I'm no electrical engineer, so I can only share educated guesses from what I've read. Looking at people driving excess currents on Raspberry Pi GPIO pins, the individual pins themselves can fry and I'm assuming no longer pass any voltage or current. Is that from heat- I guess so? For MVS hardware there's plenty of cases where individual data or address lines get stuck low and you get some garbled graphics or failed booting. I've had 3 boards with this issue in my possession at one time or another. Are multicarts making this worse? The best answer is "probably," and I dunno we're going to run out of Neo Geo boards eventually.

How was temperature being measured? I would guess at worst an external probe somewhere on the package and at best thermal imaging. What you'd really need for this level of measurement is junction temperature for the transistors themselves, which I'd have to imagine isn't measured easily without some very expensive equipment or sensors already being in place at the hardware level.

[SGGG2]

Get yourself a unibios and Ver 1 of this cart and you are all set, Razoola added a function especially for this multi cart - cuts all the crap, nice front end and you can get a really good selection of games add a 1 slot board all in for approx 100 dollars, euros or pounds.

A bargain, I also have the NeoSD multi cart but mainly have the 161 banana cart in my cab, so much faster to swap games, it’s instant.

So it has to be the original yellow cartridge? The “version 2” and 3 on AliExpress won’t work?

[BazookaBen]

So it has to be the original yellow cartridge? The “version 2” and 3 on AliExpress won’t work?

I’ve read a couple forum posts that the version 3 works with uni bios

[thegreathopper]

Get yourself a unibios and Ver 1 of this cart and you are all set, Razoola added a function especially for this multi cart - cuts all the crap, nice front end and you can get a really good selection of games add a 1 slot board all in for approx 100 dollars, euros or pounds.

A bargain, I also have the NeoSD multi cart but mainly have the 161 banana cart in my cab, so much faster to swap games, it’s instant.

So it has to be the original yellow cartridge? The “version 2” and 3 on AliExpress won’t work?

From what I understand , Yes - there was quite a post about this on Arcade Projects and pretty sure V1 was the only on that worked with Razoolas Pick n Mix.

https://youtu.be/dv3DrdWnXlA

[Sumez]

Most notable omissions I'd say are Twinkle Star Sprites, Windjammers, NAM-1975, Real Bout 2, Shock Troopers, Magician Lord, Ghostlop, Waku Waku 7, and Galaxy Fight.
Outside of TSS, none of those are worth the $650 asking price though, and at that price I'd get myself a genuine copy instead. On the other hand yeah, I'd be hesitant to put garbage hardware like this in my Neo Geo.

No Shock Troopers alone = 161-in-1 is a useless piece of shit that can go to hell. You NEED Shock Troopers and 2nd Squad is not a suitable replacement. The additional losses of Waku Waku 7, all of the Real Bout games, Fatal Fury Special, Twinkle Star Sprites, and Windjammers are also pretty good reasons to not get this thing.

Shock Troopers is like a $80 game or something. Not sure exactly how much it goes for these days, but it's one of the cheaper MVS games. Definitely not worth throwing $650 after

[spmbx]

You're missing out on horrible customer service and having to deal with an unmannered nutcase spaniard

[BazookaBen]

bobrocks95 you got me paranoid

So I've been trying to learn a little more about this

So here is a video response from a flash cart maker (BenVenn) to dbElectronic's article. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv4TeyLcSSw

From what (I think) this guy is saying, the diodes present on the silicon in these carts dumps excess current so the input pins on the console side aren't overloaded?

Was there ever a rebuttal to this? Or more discussion and debate with dbelectronics and other engineers? I feel like this discussion died off quick after 2017 and people just decided to believe or not believe dbelectronics original theory.

EDIT: Well there is definitely some direct debate with dbElectronics in the comment section, but it got uncivilized. I noticed dbElectronics removed all his videos and took his articles down, which is a little sus. Krikzz also removed some rebuttal posts on his forum. Which is, also, sus

[SavagePencil]

dbElectronics packed it all in and went into professional guitar noodling after he got fed-up with retro game zealots

[BazookaBen]

Yeah, I can see that too. Lifelong flashcart users bothering him on his socials and whatnot.

[bobrocks95]

If I'm interpreting BennVenn's response video correctly, it sounds like it's actually safer for the console to have a bootleg cart that doesn't have a voltage regulator. Like it should have voltage regulators and full level translation, or nothing at all. Let me try to explain:



According to BennVenn's video (again if I'm interpreting correctly) this is actually a safer design- since the two power supplies are both 5V, it's terrible and out of spec for the flash on the bootleg of course, but the clamping diodes will supposedly stop current flow since the voltage difference doesn't reach the typical 0.6V forward voltage to allow current to flow.



I think this is like if V2 in dbElectronic's diagram was also 5V- there's no voltage differential anymore so you're not shorting between 5V and 3.3V




But then we have carts like the NES multicart dbElectronics shows, that includes a 3.3V regulator. This should actually go back to Rene's original argument- if the regulator is powering the flash chips off of 3.3V, then the clamping diode D1 is back to being shorted because of the voltage difference, and pins from the console are driving more current than they're likely rated for.




Does that seem to be right? I don't think they quite contradict each other- I don't like that BennVenn takes such a strong stance that all Chinese bootlegs must be designed just fine (console-wise), especially when he had just explained that including a regulator for SD cards (which require 3.3V) could cause console damage when improperly designed. What's the 3.3V regulator on the NES multicart he shows in the video powering?

EDIT: I checked an Earthbound bootleg I bought a couple of years ago off of Aliexpress (it had a fairly nice reproduction box and manual/guide- I figured the game cart would be improperly designed). It has an AMS1117 5V to 3.3V regulator in it that powers the Altera Max chip and the flash chip on the right. Most of the cartridge pins connect directly to these two 3.3V powered chips (and without the 100 ohm resistor to limit the current). So adding the nice voltage regulator to get the 3.3V chips in spec seems like it's now a design that would damage my console with excessive current.



Thoughts?

[Unseen]

It has an AMS1117 5V to 3.3V regulator in it that powers the Altera Max chip and the flash chip on the right. Most of the cartridge pins connect directly to these two 3.3V powered chips (and without the 100 ohm resistor to limit the current). So adding the nice voltage regulator to get the 3.3V chips in spec seems like it's now a design that would damage my console with excessive current.

It looks like the flash chip only connects to the Altera chip, which I think reads EPM3128A? If so, that is explicitly 5V compatible while running at 3.3V: "MultiVolt TM I/O interface enabling the device core to run at 3.3 V, while I/O pins are compatible with 5.0–V, 3.3–V, and 2.5–V logic levels"

[BazookaBen]

Yeah Bob, I'm not sure what to make of the information.

All I know is BenVenn says "it's OK", GadgetUK says "I think it should be OK", and Rene says "it's bad"

Which is why I was hoping to see a little more discussion from other characters, but all I could find is a few videos of Rene on a podcast, and a few comments from BennVenn on reddit and youtube. It seems nobody else qualified has weighed in.

I guess one way to look at it is "do I trust this cartridge that is damaging itself, to not damage my console?". Because it seems that everybody above agrees that these carts are probably damaging their own flash chips.

[bobrocks95]

It has an AMS1117 5V to 3.3V regulator in it that powers the Altera Max chip and the flash chip on the right. Most of the cartridge pins connect directly to these two 3.3V powered chips (and without the 100 ohm resistor to limit the current). So adding the nice voltage regulator to get the 3.3V chips in spec seems like it's now a design that would damage my console with excessive current.

It looks like the flash chip only connects to the Altera chip, which I think reads EPM3128A? If so, that is explicitly 5V compatible while running at 3.3V: "MultiVolt TM I/O interface enabling the device core to run at 3.3 V, while I/O pins are compatible with 5.0–V, 3.3–V, and 2.5–V logic levels"

Altera is EPM3128A, yes. Chip on the left is a Ramtron FM1808-120-S which is 5V (and nice to see FRAM for saves) while the flash on the right is a Spansion S29GL064N90TFI040 which is 3.3V, with the I/O pins configurable a bit lower for the larger package size models (not the model used here).

Unfortunately after a lot of trace probing, the 8-bit data lines from the cartridge connector (D0-7) go straight into the flash chip. All the address lines are routed through the Altera but these data lines don't so I don't think it's safe to use. Better than I expected though since the Altera supports 5V I/O.

Yeah Bob, I'm not sure what to make of the information.

All I know is BenVenn says "it's OK", GadgetUK says "I think it should be OK", and Rene says "it's bad"

Which is why I was hoping to see a little more discussion from other characters, but all I could find is a few videos of Rene on a podcast, and a few comments from BennVenn on reddit and youtube. It seems nobody else qualified has weighed in.

I guess one way to look at it is "do I trust this cartridge that is damaging itself, to not damage my console?". Because it seems that everybody above agrees that these carts are probably damaging their own flash chips.

I'd welcome hearing more myself. I think at the end of the day any bootleg cart is going to be a crapshoot because they're all a little different and made with the end goal of being produced as cheaply as possible. I've definitely gotten plenty that aren't beveled or are the wrong thickness and really rough on a system's cartridge slot. BennVenn shows the potential for cheap carts to just be damaging themselves though, which I'm not concerned about and didn't think before this was a scenario that could happen.

Though I also have to wonder what happens when a 3.3V flash chip catastrophically fails from consistent overvolting- is it guaranteed that no voltage/current spikes will go over data/address lines connected straight to the console? It all points to "be cautious" for me, and if the NeoSD was maybe $150 cheaper or so the MVS multicarts probably wouldn't be so prevalent.

[jd213]

When I tried to dump an older Retro-Bit Famicom cart (Holy Diver, which I'm guessing wasn't made with the correct voltage), a whiff of smoke puffed out of it (not sure from where exactly, don't see any charring on the board) and the cart no longer works in real hardware. Didn't seem to affect the cart dumper, though.